From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Original-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Delivered-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.83]) by sympa.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44CAA7FE44 for ; Sat, 9 Jul 2016 01:11:50 +0200 (CEST) IronPort-PHdr: 9a23:aRyKrhBoANVjU3mivLstUyQJP3N1i/DPJgcQr6AfoPdwSP78rsbcNUDSrc9gkEXOFd2CrakV06yN6eu6BSQp2tWoiDg6aptCVhsI2409vjcLJ4q7M3D9N+PgdCcgHc5PBxdP9nC/NlVJSo6lPwWB6kO74TNaIBjjLw09fr2zQd+KyZ/tnLrus7ToICxwzAKnZr1zKBjk5S7wjeIxxbVYF6Aq1xHSqWFJcekFjUlhJFaUggqurpzopM0r221qtvkg789NV7nhN+R9FOQATWduD2dg3srhuAPfBS6S4n8RSC1CiB1CDhLZqhTnWpP8qHHSue902S3cNsrzG+MaQzOnuohmUhOgszsAMyY8+WfRwphxiqxciB2svRA62JLTZJmQPfx4OK/QK4BJDVFdV9pcAnQSSri3aJECWq9YZb5V Authentication-Results: mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr; spf=None smtp.pra=info@gerd-stolpmann.de; spf=None smtp.mailfrom=info@gerd-stolpmann.de; spf=None smtp.helo=postmaster@mout.kundenserver.de Received-SPF: None (mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of info@gerd-stolpmann.de) identity=pra; client-ip=217.72.192.75; receiver=mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-sender="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: None (mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of info@gerd-stolpmann.de) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=217.72.192.75; receiver=mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-sender="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: None (mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of postmaster@mout.kundenserver.de) identity=helo; client-ip=217.72.192.75; receiver=mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-sender="postmaster@mout.kundenserver.de"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0CbAgAhMoBXh0vASNlchBQtT7sRHoJDgzcCgSg8EAEBAQEBAQEBEQEBAQgNCQkhL4IyghsBBVUkEAsYLlcGEwmIKwEJvhgBAQEBAQEEAQEBARUOhS+FFDGBeoIjMIVPBYgakHqBOQKNFIlJBIVfhDqLVDWCKBELgU5sAYdtgUQBAQE X-IPAS-Result: A0CbAgAhMoBXh0vASNlchBQtT7sRHoJDgzcCgSg8EAEBAQEBAQEBEQEBAQgNCQkhL4IyghsBBVUkEAsYLlcGEwmIKwEJvhgBAQEBAQEEAQEBARUOhS+FFDGBeoIjMIVPBYgakHqBOQKNFIlJBIVfhDqLVDWCKBELgU5sAYdtgUQBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.28,332,1464645600"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="226132650" Received: from mout.kundenserver.de ([217.72.192.75]) by mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 09 Jul 2016 01:11:49 +0200 Received: from office1.lan.sumadev.de ([88.69.130.4]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue102) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M9Gk2-1bYHiG1Yyc-00CjXX; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 01:11:46 +0200 Received: from [192.168.65.10] (unknown [192.168.65.10]) by office1.lan.sumadev.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0A4C1DC05D; Sat, 9 Jul 2016 01:11:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <1468019499.25014.24.camel@e130.lan.sumadev.de> From: Gerd Stolpmann To: Robert Muller Cc: SP , Gabriel Scherer , Dean Thompson , "caml-list@inria.fr" Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 01:11:39 +0200 In-Reply-To: References: <20160704144512.GB2458@Razor> <20160708214604.GB1723@tiger> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-gYOhhdWnCpq5OaARqeQO" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.10.4-0ubuntu2 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:ddmXPIwwzQhib88s0UEfrxqNL/YRoB+8ne3JZ+wB3ncQEm67Fzo qqYhorE2ljzy7663utihGlM9Yo8i33/ssN4GDgGB2+2eJZHatx3C7qwJXDwQl2dEwUPUAzI wLPKzpjZpEQiXuU4Fu/LRtmn4zBk1JPANLmWYT4qlwilBTEUBCksPvZRZvjXAL5LctqS1mw 1NHUKJn+rdkG4Db1WKgDw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:kO5HUZgvTP8=:iaz3yW6IMHrd6MM4gSJyyP 7I7fJvUwyll5Ir9IUc5L7O0GcU/MLz8Slm3XLuuL/oE36iaUDWmSsRfDARga6+GeBvZhDkbeW uctpkwl0c8QwPSUWuzvqOipURqEeek0OPGujauRHOo63kyxkZOaMPB/52O6HuJHOHTy9hEPDb 5gs5a5EBIZEwdYINSOjOq1ti1EIbln4p0AG0MAhn4B0WoBqT6cA5dRunDb1BMossMr6NKhEK8 rK+ec7u/PSrc4L+6trZ3ZWyswsVdbm6fyVwmoOy2LVobvtWHHl+fM0Hb5HrxHgLWr7H4EBnnP 8OyJOHsfI2K6vI090Q520YMl53iqf62FwQSnW/BFEWSlXGA9lCEaIB6eEdVHgPr3WOjo63LCi JxNg9v9TyHCSQE1txoDQQ39TR5cx/Cz/1cViaz+Fs7YiNRDeXqBlr0UbRlqwMfiWLnqS+60/c Mw2ahRkySpwaKpPzUf2xJKogNJEVKCIXTWo/Cdu3naAp+OFQ6gPMJWIcMCT6PCcz+UcQK2+2k 73bnE7k7FBu927OBJigG2DZIPLp4GCC3XkuzNrJRZ8yhmqmIOi5PPdfR6wTVaTumUCX4AaSLk uRl3mok6AHOdZrjIGCJbPPm3Mgm/DoFIESz9fBjqVyMedHyiARDfE/BKe9ZqTNay9FJ7T1PMg wNM9VLhxyD8nSizN3hXNhuIxfLJ6MJa+FwYMRKQzQr96M2qSC9cMjlHYB49FYWOhqsAM= Subject: Re: [Caml-list] how to encourage adoption of OCaml? --=-gYOhhdWnCpq5OaARqeQO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, the world is now much larger than at the time when McCarthy made that observation. I wouldn't give too much on it, as long as some 19 yr olds are smart enough to find OCaml (and like it). That OCaml is not resume-friendly is a myth that still spreads in the academic world. Actually, it is hard for companies to find OCaml engineers (it is currently one of our search criteria), and I don't know anyone who was unemployed for a longer time. I'd guess that the demand for engineers is bigger than the supply. Of course, this might depend on where you live, and for what kind of job you go, and getting the first position in a certain field is never easy. I don't really get the thing with the white flag... Gerd Am Freitag, den 08.07.2016, 18:05 -0400 schrieb Robert Muller: > As John McCarthy said, as far as programming language adoption goes, > it doesn't matter what professional programmers think. What matters is > what 19 year-olds think. I've been teaching OCaml in my CS101 course > for two years now. Students have to choose between my OCaml-based > course and the standard one using Python. Getting them to opt for > OCaml over the more resume-friendly Python is a bit of a slog. But the > ones who go for it wind up really liking the OCaml approach to > software and more than a few sign up as CS students because of it. > That said, OCaml needs to be much, much easier to use. ocamlfind seems > to be a white flag of surrender. Of course the lack of support for > pedagogy in the libraries is an issue too. > Cheers, > Bob Muller >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 5:46 PM, SP wrote: > On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 10:40:41AM -0400, Gabriel Scherer > wrote: > Regarding usability, I think the tooling ecosystem is > too complex today. If > I wanted to bootstrap a beginner to do stuff I would > have to tell them > about the OCaml compiler tools (ocamlc, ocamlopt), > ocamlfind, a build > system (omake or ocamlbuild for example), oasis, > Merlin, opam, and get them > to learn either Vim or Emacs. >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 > +1 >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 > To my limited knowledge there is nothing wrong with the > capability of > these tools. But making their entry point easier might improve > adoption > as well as general usability. >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 > I would personally be interested in helping someone > with a holistic > approach to usability devote as much of their time as > they can. >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 > I'd try to contribute towards that too. >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 > --=20 > SP >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 >=20 >=20 --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------ Gerd Stolpmann, Darmstadt, Germany gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de My OCaml site: http://www.camlcity.org Contact details: http://www.camlcity.org/contact.html Company homepage: http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de ------------------------------------------------------------ --=-gYOhhdWnCpq5OaARqeQO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEcBAABAgAGBQJXgDMrAAoJEAaM4b9ZLB5T7D0H/igca1tQ2ECqpbldRBi/HlHc l2LvxRz3rqFM7fVSh2Qqr8A9vUaZVzIGV/Fijy+7ydthRl+x64w948VzoyiTAwih csPrCtjrsAcynsaKwOayTEgB59wZDgrwexXB9qE0NJNX4k0VK13wqhPkct+Gn9S0 y9LA/LCMj3F3CxpKehJKljfjnXYrXI8lNAQPWeQC4qazz+3fZ0J0EhM8UjPf7Z5Q SrniLavLWkl9Y2xs7rg37dXnakALlOMA0y4iA0sJ/vkXRS/H3gP2Vo5et7olpjlm tf7emLeWPjj6H3AHap/wDyWUq5wxTpsKXq/nEJ7WQft0hew7AO7kTCAeCzCcxao= =oWDq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-gYOhhdWnCpq5OaARqeQO--