From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2F2BC84 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:07:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from pauillac.inria.fr (pauillac.inria.fr [128.93.11.35]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j2FN7fXs026098 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:07:41 +0100 Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA27631 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:07:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.cs.unm.edu (mail.cs.unm.edu [64.106.20.33]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j2FN7df2013868 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:07:40 +0100 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.unm.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 554ECE416E; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:57:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail.cs.unm.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24069-07; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:57:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (pcp09983606pcs.svaley01.nm.comcast.net [68.35.58.177]) by mail.cs.unm.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C93AFE413E; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:57:14 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: References: <42363A86.6010309@1969.ws> <200503150859.55997.jon@ffconsultancy.com> <200503152036.45894.jon@ffconsultancy.com> <32977.131.254.50.45.1110920621.squirrel@mail.irisa.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <172f01077499b3d417604d0ad31f2bdb@cs.unm.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: caml-list From: "William D.Neumann" Subject: Re: [Caml-list] OCaml troll on Slashdot Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:07:37 -0700 To: Yoann Padioleau X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at cs.unm.edu X-Miltered: at nez-perce with ID 42376ABD.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr)! X-Miltered: at concorde with ID 42376ABB.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr)! X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 ocaml:01 inherently:01 arrays:01 restricting:01 assertion:01 orthogonal:01 mutable:01 mutable:01 arrays:01 wager:98 ...:98 ...:98 wrote:01 structures:01 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on yquem.inria.fr X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Level: On Mar 15, 2005, at 3:12 PM, Yoann Padioleau wrote: >> To which, I'd assume the majority response would be, "So?" > > So some of his arguments are right. You make object "So?" but > we could continue a long moment that way. Perhaps, perhaps not. His point seems to be that programming in a "functional style"[1] is inherently slower than an imperative style because a list or a map have different performance characteristics than do arrays. To which the only response is along the lines of "True. They are different data structures, and they behave differently -- sometimes worse, sometimes better." But the point is that needlessly restricting yourself to such a style seems like such an odd thing to do that I have a hard time caring about the truth of the assertion. The truth of a statement is orthogonal to its silliness. > Well not trying to define stuff is better ? That's not really the intent of the quote (or at least I don't think it is). I read it as saying that those who insist that e.g. "functional programming" *cannot* include the notion of mutable data structures, or that it *cannot* be OO if it doesn't offer encapsulation or classes, aren't really bringing anything useful to the table. You can argue 'till you're blue in the face whether or not mutable arrays or strings have any place in a "functional" language, but when you're done, have you really accomplished anything? > "dollars to donuts" ? > I am an american newbie so I have no idea of what it means :) Sorry. It's shorthand for "I'll wager my X dollars against your X donuts that I am correct," and is a way of expressing confidence in your position. It used to mean a lot more when you could get a dozen donuts for a dollar... [1] Where functional style is restricted to, among other things, no mutable data structures. William D. Neumann "You've got Rita Marlowe in the palm of your hand." "Palm of my hand? You haven't seen Rita Marlowe..." -- Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter?