From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id WAA04604; Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:35:05 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA13090 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:35:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from hirsch.in-berlin.de (hirsch.in-berlin.de [192.109.42.6]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id h2DLZ4X26497 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:35:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from hirsch.in-berlin.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hirsch.in-berlin.de (8.12.8/8.12.8/Debian-2) with ESMTP id h2DLZ3oj015850 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:35:03 +0100 Received: from first.UUCP (uucp@localhost) by hirsch.in-berlin.de (8.12.8/8.12.8/Debian-2) with UUCP id h2DLZ2V4015839 for inria.fr!caml-list; Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:35:02 +0100 X-Envelope-From: oliver@first.in-berlin.de X-Envelope-To: inria.fr!caml-list Received: by first.in-berlin.de via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.114) Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:17:02 +0100 (CET) From: oliver@first.in-berlin.de (Oliver Bandel) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:17:02 +0100 To: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: [Caml-list] OCaml popularity Message-ID: <20030313211702.GA884@first.in-berlin.de> References: <200303111023.LAA09578@pauillac.inria.fr> <20030311190230.13615.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> <20030312171242.GA11435@redhat.com> <20030313021517.GA29102@force.stwing.upenn.edu> <20030313095232.GC347@first.in-berlin.de> <20030313205010.GA7956@force.stwing.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030313205010.GA7956@force.stwing.upenn.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-Spam: no; 0.00; oliver:01 in-berlin:01 bandel:01 caml-list:01 lovas:01 lacks:01 'til:01 unpatient:01 ocaml's:01 catered:99 ocaml:01 ciao:02 o'caml:02 wrote:03 suppose:03 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 03:50:11PM -0500, William Lovas wrote: > On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 10:52:32AM +0100, Oliver Bandel wrote: > > I/O is on page 76, where imperative programming > > is explained. > > > > When looking into K&R's C book, it's in the first chapter > > on the first page to create a feedback from the machine > > with the well-known "hello world"-example... > > Well, since C lacks a top-level read-eval-print loop, being able to > do I/O is crucially important early on. Less so with O'Caml -- one > can get right into the interesting bits of the programming language > without having to know a wink of I/O. The necessary evils like I/O > can wait 'til a little bit later... like Chapter 3 :) Well, for unpatient people, this is a very long time! (Even if you have not time to work every day with that language and that book!) > > Plus, the top-level loop approach introduces a number of important > concepts early on, like expressions, values, and types. > > > When you have a functional language and say: Yes, functional > > programming is so genious, but get the I/O not before > > the chapter about imperative programming, then it looks > > not very honestly... > > > > But adding the FP-features as a "what other languages have not" > > (or not so clear) later, this might (not proven it;-)) be > > a beter approach in making the language interesting. > > You're basic objection here is that O'Caml is not being taught in the > same way that other programming languages have been taught in the past. > Should it be? Maybe O'Caml is different enough from other programming > languages that it should be *taught* differently. Yes, I have thought about that too. Maybe programmers are - when looking at OCaml's imperative features - not very impressed (namespace of variables (records,..)). Well, but on the other side, people are often very unpatient. If the question is, to spread OCaml more, then people want to have results fast. E.G. scripting... some I/O-stuff right from the beginning, and you can do some things, where you have used Perl before... So, waiting with this until Chapter 3 may cause people to stop learning the new language... > > I suppose it's arguable, though, that O'Caml might be more popular if > its teaching style catered more to peoples' expectations. Yes. Shure. But if people have to wait too long - who has the time today to invest so much time, if not a researcher or unemployed (or workoholic, who comes home with rectangular eyes and again take seat in front of the computer?) Ciao, Oliver ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners