From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA04691; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 07:34:42 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA07480 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 07:34:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from umail.ru (umail.mtu.ru [195.34.32.101]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id i0T6Yev23087 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 07:34:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from [212.188.56.220] (HELO inv_machine) by umail.ru (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 194787953; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:34:39 +0300 Received: by inv_machine (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C2A52B72C; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:36:33 +0300 (MSK) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:36:33 +0300 From: Alexander Epifanov To: Chet Murthy Cc: Alexander Epifanov , caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer Message-ID: <20040129063633.GA4337@inv_machine> References: <20040127063230.GA12482@inv_machine> <200401282326.i0SNQntl004612@bismarck-chet.watson.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200401282326.i0SNQntl004612@bismarck-chet.watson.ibm.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 chet:01 murthy:01 sux:99 cobol:01 sux:99 threads:01 threads:01 bug:01 bug:01 onsite:99 crap:01 internals:01 faq:01 faq:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk On 18:26 Wed 28 Jan , Chet Murthy wrote: I agree with you on all items. I've written a lot of java applications. "Java - slow sux" - it's right. I don't think the JVM is a good solution. I told about scala, which used JVM, but I don't want to tell "We need to use JVM". The basic problem in projects in which I took part, was that I could not use ocaml _only_ to make project complete. I wrote a lot of C/C++ functions to use ocaml with CORBA or SNMP for example. > > Alexander, > > I don't know what to say, except that clearly, you should spend some > time in the trenches, working with the COBOL of the 21st Century -- > Java. > > That's what I do for a living. I've written extremely complex Java > systems. I've debugged more Java code than anybody else at my current > employer, and I'm not kidding. > > And, y'know what? > > Java/the JVM still sux. > > I left CAML in 1994, when it still didn't have a native-code > compiler. I started hacking on Java in the spring of 1996. I've got > code in (probably) every JVM. I've debugged dozens of very large, and > hundreds of only somewhat large Java deployments, some of them in > situations involving large amounts of business at risk. > > And y'know what? > > Java/the JVM still sux. > > "concurrency"! You ever tried to use Java threads to do anything > meaningful? Check out the J2EE spec. It basically is BUILT around > NOT sharing anything between threads. > > Oh, and y'know, we have a joke: "every Java bug is a connection-pool > (or resource-pool) bug". > > Here's another: "When you arrive onsite, grep for synchronized, and > if you see it, put your laptop back in your bag, tell 'em you're going > to get coffee, and don't come back". > > Java/the JVM is not a systems-programming language. Period. Oh, and > I'll defend that against all comers. Difference is, though, if you > wanna attack, I'll expect real examples, not the academic crap that > most programming language theorists throw around. > > --chet-- > > P.S. I came back to CAML for personal programming in 1999, and after > that four-year hiatus, during which I became a commercial JVM > internals guy, as well as a commercial transaction-processing > firefighter (think "Mr. Wolf" from _Pulp Fiction_). So I think I have > the experience to compare, and the verdict seems manifestly > incontrovertible: Java/the JVM sux. > > ------------------- > To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners -- Gentoo Linux http://www.gentoo.org ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners