From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id SAA17324; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:30:17 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA17222 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:30:16 +0100 (MET) X-SPAM-Warning: Sending machine is listed in blackholes.five-ten-sg.com Received: from web41215.mail.yahoo.com (web41215.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.48]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i29HUEHd028948 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:30:15 +0100 Message-ID: <20040309173009.27908.qmail@web41215.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [134.241.124.199] by web41215.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 09:30:09 PST Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:30:09 -0800 (PST) From: Vasili Galchin Subject: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library To: caml-list@inria.fr MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-933730898-1078853409=:25503" X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; run-time:01 otherlibs:01 mli:01 posix:01 api:01 mli:01 otherlibs:01 posix:01 api:01 W5:97 unix:02 unix:02 library:03 completeness:93 consensus:07 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 92 --0-933730898-1078853409=:25503 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello, I have yet to finish reading through otherlibs/unix/unix.mli. I kind of consider this POSIX API support. In any case, is there is a consensus that what is in unix.mli is complete? Or does new functionality have to be added? If so, what? Regards, Vasili --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster. --0-933730898-1078853409=:25503 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Hello,
 
      I have yet to finish reading through otherlibs/unix/unix.mli. I kind of consider this POSIX API support. In any case, is there is a consensus that what is in unix.mli is complete? Or does new functionality have to be added? If so, what?
 
Regards, Vasili

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Search - Find what you’re looking for faster. --0-933730898-1078853409=:25503-- ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id SAA18554; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:59:38 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA18774 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:59:36 +0100 (MET) X-SPAM-Warning: Sending machine is listed in blackholes.five-ten-sg.com Received: from wetware.com (wetware.wetware.com [199.108.16.1]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i29HxrKW027559 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:59:53 +0100 Received: from [208.177.152.18] (helo=[10.0.1.7]) by wetware.com with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B0lVu-0004oT-Em; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 09:59:34 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20040309173009.27908.qmail@web41215.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040309173009.27908.qmail@web41215.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v612) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: <7DBE572A-71F3-11D8-BDB0-000393B8133A@wetware.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: caml-list@inria.fr From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:59:20 -0800 To: Vasili Galchin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; woodyatt:01 jhw:01 wetware:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 otherlibs:01 mli:01 posix:01 api:01 mli:01 lacking:01 multicast:01 drop-in:01 bsd-like:01 woodyatt:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 93 On 09 Mar 2004, at 09:30, Vasili Galchin wrote: > =A0 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 I have yet to finish reading through = otherlibs/unix/unix.mli. I=20 > kind of consider this POSIX API support. In any case, is there is a=20 > consensus that what is in unix.mli is complete? Or does new=20 > functionality have to be added? If so, what? I think the Unix module could be regarded as incomplete. The tactic I have taken with this problem is to regard the Unix library=20= in the Ocaml distribution as the property of INRIA. It has what it=20 has, and it will get what INRIA decides is missing when the INRIA team=20= decides to put it there. I found the support for socket options to be lacking. I wanted IPv6=20 support. I'll probably want all manner of other things eventually,=20 e.g. multicast, raw sockets, routing sockets, etcetera. The way to get=20= this is to write a drop-in replacement for the features of the Unix=20 library you need updated. I released my code for extending socket support in Unix with my Cf=20 library, which you can find on the Hump. (It only builds on Mac OS X=20 and probably other BSD-like platforms, because I used the sa_len field=20= in socket address structures. That should be easily fixed in my next=20 release in a couple months.) --=20 j h woodyatt markets are only free to the people who own them.= ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id SAA18956; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:55:32 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA18776 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:55:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from aomori.annexia.org (annexia.force9.co.uk [212.56.101.183]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i29HtkKW027114 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:55:48 +0100 Received: from rich by aomori.annexia.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B0lRv-00011t-00 for ; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 17:55:27 +0000 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 17:55:27 +0000 Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library Message-ID: <20040309175527.GA3359@redhat.com> References: <20040309173009.27908.qmail@web41215.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040309173009.27908.qmail@web41215.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Richard Jones X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 otherlibs:01 mli:01 posix:01 api:01 mli:01 perl's:01 calc:01 ltd:98 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 caml:01 caml:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 94 On Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 09:30:09AM -0800, Vasili Galchin wrote: > Hello, > > I have yet to finish reading through otherlibs/unix/unix.mli. I kind of consider this POSIX API support. In any case, is there is a consensus that what is in unix.mli is complete? Or does new functionality have to be added? If so, what? No way!! There's lots of missing stuff which could be added. eg. off the top of my head, strftime(3). It would also be useful to have a comprehensive time / date library, probably outside the Unix module. As part of the perl4caml project I've wrapped up Perl's Date::Parse, Date::Format and Date::Calc[1] modules, but a general OCaml library would be great. Rich. [1] http://www.engelschall.com/~sb/download/Date-Calc/ -- Richard Jones. http://www.annexia.org/ http://www.j-london.com/ Merjis Ltd. http://www.merjis.com/ - improving website return on investment Learning Objective CAML for C, C++, Perl and Java programmers: http://www.merjis.com/richj/computers/ocaml/tutorial/ ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id TAA17935; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:04:41 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA19653 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:04:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from cantina.students.cs.unibo.it (cantina.students.cs.unibo.it [130.136.3.110]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i29I4wKW028080 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:04:58 +0100 Received: from fistandantilus.takhisis.org (cantina.students.cs.unibo.it [130.136.3.110]) by cantina.students.cs.unibo.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB6E5C094 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:04:37 +0100 (CET) Received: by fistandantilus.takhisis.org (Postfix, from userid 3148) id 33EF3274229; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:04:39 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:04:39 +0100 From: Stefano Zacchiroli To: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library Message-ID: <20040309180439.GA12481@fistandantilus.takhisis.org> Mail-Followup-To: caml-list@inria.fr References: <20040309173009.27908.qmail@web41215.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040309173009.27908.qmail@web41215.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; bononia:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 otherlibs:01 mli:01 posix:01 api:01 mli:01 bononia:01 unix:02 unix:02 bologna:03 wrote:03 zacchiroli:03 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 95 On Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 09:30:09AM -0800, Vasili Galchin wrote: > I have yet to finish reading through otherlibs/unix/unix.mli. I kind > of consider this POSIX API support. In any case, is there is a > consensus that what is in unix.mli is complete? Or does new > functionality have to be added? If so, what? Yet another example: process group handling system calls are completely missing. Cheers. -- Stefano Zacchiroli -*- Computer Science PhD student @ Uny Bologna, Italy zack@{cs.unibo.it,debian.org,bononia.it} -%- http://www.bononia.it/zack/ If there's any real truth it's that the entire multidimensional infinity of the Universe is almost certainly being run by a bunch of maniacs. -!- ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id TAA19856; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:11:58 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA20010 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:11:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i29IBsHd001325 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:11:55 +0100 Received: (qmail 7090 invoked by uid 64014); 9 Mar 2004 18:11:53 -0000 Received: from shawnw@speakeasy.org by mail5.speakeasy.net with AmikaGuardian-Server-2.1.2; 09 Mar 2004 18:11:53 -0000 X-AmikaGuardian-Id: mail5.speakeasy.net10788559132617075 X-AmikaGuardian-Category: AN:Override Structure : 2.1 X-AmikaGuardian-Category: AN:Vectored : 2.1 X-AmikaGuardian-Category: AN:Forwarded Mail : 2.1 X-AmikaGuardian-Category: AN:Override : 2.1 X-AmikaGuardian-Category: AN:Exception : 2.1 X-AmikaGuardian-Action: Do Nothing() Received: from dialup-67.75.211.106.dial1.seattle.level3.net (HELO sherlock.localdomain) (shawnw@[67.75.211.106]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 9 Mar 2004 18:11:52 -0000 Received: by sherlock.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 502) id CB0B511396; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:11:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:11:09 -0800 From: Shawn Wagner To: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library Message-ID: <20040309181109.GP27866@speakeasy.org> Mail-Followup-To: caml-list@inria.fr References: <20040309173009.27908.qmail@web41215.mail.yahoo.com> <20040309175527.GA3359@redhat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040309175527.GA3359@redhat.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2i X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; shawnw:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 2004:99 otherlibs:01 mli:01 posix:01 api:01 mli:01 posix:01 extlib:01 raevnos:01 pennmush:01 extlib:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 96 On Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 05:55:27PM +0000, Richard Jones wrote: > On Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 09:30:09AM -0800, Vasili Galchin wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I have yet to finish reading through otherlibs/unix/unix.mli. I kind of consider this POSIX API support. In any case, is there is a consensus that what is in unix.mli is complete? Or does new functionality have to be added? If so, what? > > No way!! There's lots of missing stuff which could be added. eg. off > the top of my head, strftime(3). Some missing functions from the C and POSIX standards are in my extlib library (strftime is Time.format_time). http://raevnos.pennmush.org/code/extlib/ More (The numeric ones added in C99) are in the companion mathlib. http://raevnos.pennmush.org/code/mathlib/ > > It would also be useful to have a comprehensive time / date library, > probably outside the Unix module. As part of the perl4caml project > I've wrapped up Perl's Date::Parse, Date::Format and Date::Calc[1] > modules, but a general OCaml library would be great. Agreed. -- Shawn Wagner shawnw@speakeasy.org ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id UAA06087; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 20:44:38 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA03277 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 20:44:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from plover.csun.edu (plover.csun.edu [130.166.1.24]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2FJiZHd017325 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 20:44:36 +0100 Received: from puffin.csun.edu (puffin.csun.edu [130.166.1.21]) by plover.csun.edu (MOS 3.4.4-GR) with ESMTP id BBK47102 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 11:44:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [130.166.10.69] (s010n069.csun.edu [130.166.10.69]) by puffin.csun.edu (MOS 3.4.4-GR) with ESMTP id BMZ20212 (AUTH eric) for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 11:44:33 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v612) In-Reply-To: <20040309181109.GP27866@speakeasy.org> References: <20040309173009.27908.qmail@web41215.mail.yahoo.com> <20040309175527.GA3359@redhat.com> <20040309181109.GP27866@speakeasy.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <30C21A47-76B9-11D8-8FE7-000A95A1E69A@csun.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Eric Stokes Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 11:44:36 -0800 To: caml-list@inria.fr X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 2004:99 otherlibs:01 mli:01 posix:01 api:01 mli:01 posix:01 extlib:01 raevnos:01 pennmush:01 extlib:01 raevnos:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 139 It is nice to access these things through a single interface like the Unix library, instead of having to link to multiple libraries. Does INRIA not allow submissions for inclusion into the standard library? On Mar 9, 2004, at 10:11 AM, Shawn Wagner wrote: > On Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 05:55:27PM +0000, Richard Jones wrote: >> On Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 09:30:09AM -0800, Vasili Galchin wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> I have yet to finish reading through otherlibs/unix/unix.mli. >>> I kind of consider this POSIX API support. In any case, is there is >>> a consensus that what is in unix.mli is complete? Or does new >>> functionality have to be added? If so, what? >> >> No way!! There's lots of missing stuff which could be added. eg. off >> the top of my head, strftime(3). > > > Some missing functions from the C and POSIX standards are in my extlib > library (strftime is Time.format_time). > http://raevnos.pennmush.org/code/extlib/ > > More (The numeric ones added in C99) are in the companion mathlib. > http://raevnos.pennmush.org/code/mathlib/ > > >> >> It would also be useful to have a comprehensive time / date library, >> probably outside the Unix module. As part of the perl4caml project >> I've wrapped up Perl's Date::Parse, Date::Format and Date::Calc[1] >> modules, but a general OCaml library would be great. > > Agreed. > > -- > Shawn Wagner > shawnw@speakeasy.org > > ------------------- > To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: > http://caml.inria.fr > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: > http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id GAA28617; Tue, 16 Mar 2004 06:32:33 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA27391 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2004 06:32:32 +0100 (MET) X-SPAM-Warning: Sending machine is listed in blackholes.five-ten-sg.com Received: from web41207.mail.yahoo.com (web41207.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.40]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i2G5WUHd009353 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2004 06:32:31 +0100 Message-ID: <20040316053229.99711.qmail@web41207.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.241.218.144] by web41207.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:32:29 PST Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:32:29 -0800 (PST) From: Vasili Galchin Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library To: Eric Stokes , caml-list@inria.fr Cc: vasiliocaml@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <30C21A47-76B9-11D8-8FE7-000A95A1E69A@csun.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 run-time:01 posix:01 posix:01 api:01 api:01 binaries:01 end-user:01 granularity:01 mli:01 kitchen:99 2004:99 2004:99 otherlibs:01 mli:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 142 Hi Eric, You have made a good point. Is there a way though so that there is one unix.cma (I would still suggest posix.cma because we should really IMO speak in terms of POSIX API vs Win32 API) library that is built from several binaries like socket, process, (p)thread? In this way, the end-user would like against one library not N libraries (I agree with your point about link hassles). I guess i questioning current granularity of unix.mli. This is, of course, somewhat of a judgemnet call, but one doesn't want to have all of the source in the kitchen sink. I.e. source module division vs link library division. (Sorry ... perhaps I didn't say in an eloquent way .. hope everybody gets my point). Regards, Vasili --- Eric Stokes wrote: > It is nice to access these things through a single > interface like the > Unix library, instead of > having to link to multiple libraries. Does INRIA not > allow submissions > for inclusion > into the standard library? > > On Mar 9, 2004, at 10:11 AM, Shawn Wagner wrote: > > > On Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 05:55:27PM +0000, Richard > Jones wrote: > >> On Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 09:30:09AM -0800, Vasili > Galchin wrote: > >>> Hello, > >>> > >>> I have yet to finish reading through > otherlibs/unix/unix.mli. > >>> I kind of consider this POSIX API support. In > any case, is there is > >>> a consensus that what is in unix.mli is > complete? Or does new > >>> functionality have to be added? If so, what? > >> > >> No way!! There's lots of missing stuff which > could be added. eg. off > >> the top of my head, strftime(3). > > > > > > Some missing functions from the C and POSIX > standards are in my extlib > > library (strftime is Time.format_time). > > http://raevnos.pennmush.org/code/extlib/ > > > > More (The numeric ones added in C99) are in the > companion mathlib. > > http://raevnos.pennmush.org/code/mathlib/ > > > > > >> > >> It would also be useful to have a comprehensive > time / date library, > >> probably outside the Unix module. As part of the > perl4caml project > >> I've wrapped up Perl's Date::Parse, Date::Format > and Date::Calc[1] > >> modules, but a general OCaml library would be > great. > > > > Agreed. > > > > -- > > Shawn Wagner > > shawnw@speakeasy.org > > > > ------------------- > > To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr > Archives: > > http://caml.inria.fr > > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > FAQ: > > http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ > > Beginner's list: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > > > > ------------------- > To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr > Archives: http://caml.inria.fr > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: > http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id QAA26731; Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:52:11 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA17074 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:52:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from plover.csun.edu (plover.csun.edu [130.166.1.24]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2HFqaKW010558 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:52:36 +0100 Received: from puffin.csun.edu (puffin.csun.edu [130.166.1.21]) by plover.csun.edu (MOS 3.4.4-GR) with ESMTP id BBM19327 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2004 07:52:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.221] (cpe-24-31-48-47.socal.rr.com [24.31.48.47]) by puffin.csun.edu (MOS 3.4.4-GR) with ESMTP id BND12507 (AUTH eric) for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2004 07:52:03 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v612) In-Reply-To: <20040316053229.99711.qmail@web41207.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040316053229.99711.qmail@web41207.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <07FEC955-782B-11D8-850C-000A957FFA4A@csun.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Eric Stokes Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 07:52:02 -0800 To: caml-list@inria.fr X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 run-time:01 posix:01 posix:01 avoids:01 api:01 api:01 binaries:01 end-user:01 granularity:01 mli:01 kitchen:99 2004:99 2004:99 otherlibs:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 154 Splitting up the single large interface of the unix library into several smaller ones seems a very natural thing to do as the library grows. The point I was trying to make though is that INRIA currently has the most complete Posix library in the Ocaml community, and so, those of us who have created bindings for other Posix functions should try to work with them to get our code merged. This avoids fragmentation of the code base for the Posix api and the confusion which comes with it. IMHO of course. On Mar 15, 2004, at 9:32 PM, Vasili Galchin wrote: > Hi Eric, > > You have made a good point. Is there a way though > so that there is one unix.cma (I would still suggest > posix.cma because we should really IMO speak in terms > of POSIX API vs Win32 API) library that is built from > several binaries like socket, process, (p)thread? In > this way, the end-user would like against one library > not N libraries (I agree with your point about link > hassles). I guess i questioning current granularity of > unix.mli. This is, of course, somewhat of a judgemnet > call, but one doesn't want to have all of the source > in the kitchen sink. I.e. source module division vs > link library division. (Sorry ... perhaps I didn't say > in an eloquent way .. hope everybody gets my point). > > Regards, Vasili > > --- Eric Stokes wrote: >> It is nice to access these things through a single >> interface like the >> Unix library, instead of >> having to link to multiple libraries. Does INRIA not >> allow submissions >> for inclusion >> into the standard library? >> >> On Mar 9, 2004, at 10:11 AM, Shawn Wagner wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 05:55:27PM +0000, Richard >> Jones wrote: >>>> On Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 09:30:09AM -0800, Vasili >> Galchin wrote: >>>>> Hello, >>>>> >>>>> I have yet to finish reading through >> otherlibs/unix/unix.mli. >>>>> I kind of consider this POSIX API support. In >> any case, is there is >>>>> a consensus that what is in unix.mli is >> complete? Or does new >>>>> functionality have to be added? If so, what? >>>> >>>> No way!! There's lots of missing stuff which >> could be added. eg. off >>>> the top of my head, strftime(3). >>> >>> >>> Some missing functions from the C and POSIX >> standards are in my extlib >>> library (strftime is Time.format_time). >>> http://raevnos.pennmush.org/code/extlib/ >>> >>> More (The numeric ones added in C99) are in the >> companion mathlib. >>> http://raevnos.pennmush.org/code/mathlib/ >>> >>> >>>> >>>> It would also be useful to have a comprehensive >> time / date library, >>>> probably outside the Unix module. As part of the >> perl4caml project >>>> I've wrapped up Perl's Date::Parse, Date::Format >> and Date::Calc[1] >>>> modules, but a general OCaml library would be >> great. >>> >>> Agreed. >>> >>> -- >>> Shawn Wagner >>> shawnw@speakeasy.org >>> >>> ------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr >> Archives: >>> http://caml.inria.fr >>> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >> FAQ: >>> http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ >>> Beginner's list: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners >>> >> >> ------------------- >> To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr >> Archives: http://caml.inria.fr >> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: >> http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ >> Beginner's list: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------- > To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: > http://caml.inria.fr > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: > http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id BAA20494; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 01:19:09 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA20922 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 01:19:08 +0100 (MET) X-SPAM-Warning: Sending machine is listed in blackholes.five-ten-sg.com Received: from web41206.mail.yahoo.com (web41206.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.39]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i2I0J6Hd003765 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 01:19:07 +0100 Message-ID: <20040318001905.36025.qmail@web41206.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.242.201.12] by web41206.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:19:05 PST Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:19:05 -0800 (PST) From: Vasili Galchin Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library To: Eric Stokes , caml-list@inria.fr In-Reply-To: <07FEC955-782B-11D8-850C-000A957FFA4A@csun.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 run-time:01 posix:01 posix:01 tad:99 dangling:01 avoids:01 api:01 api:01 binaries:01 end-user:01 granularity:01 mli:01 kitchen:99 2004:99 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 159 --- Eric Stokes wrote: > Splitting up the single large interface of the unix > library into > several smaller ones seems a > very natural thing to do as the library grows. > The point I was trying to make though is that INRIA > currently has the most complete Posix library in the > Ocaml community, > and so, those of us who have created bindings for > other Posix functions > should > try to work with them to get our code merged. This Eric, it sounds to me that you and I are on the same page, i.e. in total agreement. What prompted my posting is that I feel a tad frustrated when I read code that I believe is very good (e.g. Georgi's ipv6 socket code where he split socket stuff out from unix.ml by itself making readibility much better and esaier multiple people to work and not having big merge problems) and I hear about other code. In both cases, these new code seems to have been sitting around and not code reviewed and put into CVS, where it should be. Also there is a danger of some divergence because someone will use some of this non-checked in code and it becomes defacto standard. So, OCaml community, how do we move forward to get this new processed and potentially merged into the mainline. This has been my point from the beginning. Does INRIA have a code gatekeeper? If so, who? I can mention another language that starts with an 'H'. I have quite a bit of respect for 'H', but frankly I have found OCaml code base very impressive. However, with all of this dangling new functionality, it is not a good situation. So again who is gatekeeper? Regards, vasili > avoids fragmentation > of the code > base for the Posix api and the confusion which comes > with it. IMHO of > course. > > On Mar 15, 2004, at 9:32 PM, Vasili Galchin wrote: > > > Hi Eric, > > > > You have made a good point. Is there a way > though > > so that there is one unix.cma (I would still > suggest > > posix.cma because we should really IMO speak in > terms > > of POSIX API vs Win32 API) library that is built > from > > several binaries like socket, process, (p)thread? > In > > this way, the end-user would like against one > library > > not N libraries (I agree with your point about > link > > hassles). I guess i questioning current > granularity of > > unix.mli. This is, of course, somewhat of a > judgemnet > > call, but one doesn't want to have all of the > source > > in the kitchen sink. I.e. source module division > vs > > link library division. (Sorry ... perhaps I didn't > say > > in an eloquent way .. hope everybody gets my > point). > > > > Regards, Vasili > > > > --- Eric Stokes wrote: > >> It is nice to access these things through a > single > >> interface like the > >> Unix library, instead of > >> having to link to multiple libraries. Does INRIA > not > >> allow submissions > >> for inclusion > >> into the standard library? > >> > >> On Mar 9, 2004, at 10:11 AM, Shawn Wagner wrote: > >> > >>> On Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 05:55:27PM +0000, > Richard > >> Jones wrote: > >>>> On Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 09:30:09AM -0800, > Vasili > >> Galchin wrote: > >>>>> Hello, > >>>>> > >>>>> I have yet to finish reading through > >> otherlibs/unix/unix.mli. > >>>>> I kind of consider this POSIX API support. In > >> any case, is there is > >>>>> a consensus that what is in unix.mli is > >> complete? Or does new > >>>>> functionality have to be added? If so, what? > >>>> > >>>> No way!! There's lots of missing stuff which > >> could be added. eg. off > >>>> the top of my head, strftime(3). > >>> > >>> > >>> Some missing functions from the C and POSIX > >> standards are in my extlib > >>> library (strftime is Time.format_time). > >>> http://raevnos.pennmush.org/code/extlib/ > >>> > >>> More (The numeric ones added in C99) are in the > >> companion mathlib. > >>> http://raevnos.pennmush.org/code/mathlib/ > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> It would also be useful to have a comprehensive > >> time / date library, > >>>> probably outside the Unix module. As part of > the > >> perl4caml project > >>>> I've wrapped up Perl's Date::Parse, > Date::Format > >> and Date::Calc[1] > >>>> modules, but a general OCaml library would be > >> great. > >>> > >>> Agreed. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Shawn Wagner > >>> shawnw@speakeasy.org > >>> > >>> ------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr > >> Archives: > >>> http://caml.inria.fr > >>> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > >> FAQ: > >>> http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ > >>> Beginner's list: > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > >>> > >> > >> ------------------- > >> To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr > >> Archives: http://caml.inria.fr > >> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > FAQ: > >> http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ > >> Beginner's list: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less > spam > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > ------------------- > > To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr > Archives: > > http://caml.inria.fr > > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > FAQ: > > http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ > > Beginner's list: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > > > > ------------------- > To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr > Archives: http://caml.inria.fr > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: > http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id JAA09790; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:56:39 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA10102 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:56:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from mz1.forethought.net (mzpi3.forethought.net [216.241.36.12]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2I8v5KW029282 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:57:06 +0100 Received: from [216.241.35.41] (helo=swordfish) by mz1.forethought.net with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1B3tKN-0000Ka-TW for caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 01:56:36 -0700 Received: from matt by swordfish with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1B3tKQ-0003Px-00 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 01:56:38 -0700 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 01:56:38 -0700 From: Matt Gushee To: caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Subject: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040318085638.GA11753@swordfish> Reply-To: Matt Gushee Mail-Followup-To: caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr References: <07FEC955-782B-11D8-850C-000A957FFA4A@csun.edu> <20040318001905.36025.qmail@web41206.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040318001905.36025.qmail@web41206.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; gushee:01 mgushee:01 havenrock:01 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 posix:01 tad:99 suitably:01 pressures:99 vaguely:01 fragile:01 camlp:01 --a:99 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 163 On Wed, Mar 17, 2004 at 04:19:05PM -0800, Vasili Galchin wrote: > > and so, those of us who have created bindings for > > other Posix functions > > should > > try to work with them to get our code merged. This > Eric, it sounds to me that you and I are on the > same page, i.e. in total agreement. What prompted my > posting is that I feel a tad frustrated when I read > code that I believe is very good (e.g. Georgi's ipv6 > socket code where he split socket stuff out from > unix.ml by itself making readibility much better and > esaier multiple people to work and not having big > merge problems) and I hear about other code. In both > cases, these new code seems to have been sitting > around and not code reviewed and put into CVS, where > it should be. Also there is a danger of some > divergence because someone will use some of this > non-checked in code and it becomes defacto standard. > So, OCaml community, how do we move forward to get > this new processed and potentially merged into the > mainline. (Sorry about the grandiose title. I have nothing suitably profound to say ... just couldn't think of a better way to express the subject.) I wonder if it is possible to persuade INRIA to do anything. I have no inside information on the process at INRIA, but my impression from reading this list over the past year or so is: 1) The OCaml team at INRIA care about the community, but there are too few of them to meet all our needs, and I suppose their work is also subject to institutional pressures that we are only vaguely aware of. Maybe they are struggling to keep enough resources for OCaml work. 2) INRIA as an institution finds it convenient to release OCaml as open source, but doesn't really care about the community. They benignly neglect everything that doesn't relate to their research goals. 3) OCaml-as-project (i.e. I'm talking about how OCaml is developed, not what it is) is a fragile enterprise. E.g., one developer leaves, and the future of Camlp4 becomes uncertain. Not good. I'm not saying you should give up hope just yet, but maybe it's time to consider alternatives. What if there were an "OCaml Community Library Project"--a group outside INRIA that would take responsibility for extending and perhaps partially replacing the standard library--maybe a bit like the current ExtLib project, only more extensive (BTW, why are there two ExtLibs?? One of you change the name, please! Thank you.). Maybe if that project showed itself to be responsible, credible, reliable, etc. etc., after a while it could become the de facto standard library. The idealistic scenario is a division of labor wherein INRIA continues to develop the parts of OCaml that are interesting to them, while other parts (of more interest to those of us working to create practical and/or commercial software) would be taken over by the community. I can't say whether this idea is feasible, or whether INRIA would be willing to go along with it, but maybe it's something to consider. -- Matt Gushee When a nation follows the Way, Englewood, Colorado, USA Horses bear manure through mgushee@havenrock.com its fields; http://www.havenrock.com/ When a nation ignores the Way, Horses bear soldiers through its streets. --Lao Tzu (Peter Merel, trans.) ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id LAA15347; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:31:43 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA14891 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:31:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from aomori.annexia.org (annexia.force9.co.uk [212.56.101.183]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2IAVeHd003832 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:31:41 +0100 Received: from rich by aomori.annexia.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B3uoO-0005Nl-00 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 10:31:40 +0000 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 10:31:40 +0000 To: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040318103140.GA20448@redhat.com> References: <07FEC955-782B-11D8-850C-000A957FFA4A@csun.edu> <20040318001905.36025.qmail@web41206.mail.yahoo.com> <20040318085638.GA11753@swordfish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040318085638.GA11753@swordfish> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Richard Jones X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 observations:01 cpan:01 pointers:01 cpan:01 extensively:01 qpl:01 gpl:01 gpl:01 gcaml:01 regexps:01 printf:01 faq:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 164 I broadly agree with Matt's analysis of the situation. Here are some observations of my own. (1) Perl gets along quite nicely with a loosely defined and broadly distributed standard library. However what Perl has which OCaml does not is a central repository (CPAN) where you can find all those libraries. I don't just mean find pointers to the libraries (the Humps), but I mean a place where you can get the actual source. The need for a CPAN for OCaml has been extensively discussed on this list already, so I won't go into that much further, except to say that my company would be prepared to fund a [virtual] server and put a little time into developing this repository. (2) The QPL license for the compiler itself is a Problem. I'm interested to know why the compiler isn't licensed under the GPL, or, if the commercial interests are so great, under a dual GPL-and- commercial license similar to (I think) Qt on Unix. If OCaml was licensed under the GPL then we could consider setting up a public CVS to create experimental versions of the compiler. I'd like to see a load of things going in - GCaml, regexps, ## for single line comments, # operator for module types, fix for printf FAQ bug, custom printf operator, ... Rich. -- Richard Jones. http://www.annexia.org/ http://www.j-london.com/ Merjis Ltd. http://www.merjis.com/ - improving website return on investment "One serious obstacle to the adoption of good programming languages is the notion that everything has to be sacrificed for speed. In computer languages as in life, speed kills." -- Mike Vanier ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id MAA18431; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:23:26 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA17815 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:23:24 +0100 (MET) X-SPAM-Warning: Sending machine is listed in blackholes.five-ten-sg.com Received: from postfix3-2.free.fr (postfix3-2.free.fr [213.228.0.169]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2IBNNHd009782 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:23:23 +0100 Received: from warp (bordeaux-1-62-147-59-228.dial.proxad.net [62.147.59.228]) by postfix3-2.free.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 56EB9C0F0; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:23:09 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <00cd01c40cdb$71c34410$4500a8c0@warp> From: "Nicolas Cannasse" To: , "Richard Jones" , References: <07FEC955-782B-11D8-850C-000A957FFA4A@csun.edu> <20040318001905.36025.qmail@web41206.mail.yahoo.com> <20040318085638.GA11753@swordfish> <20040318103140.GA20448@redhat.com> Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:22:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; cannasse:01 warplayer:01 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 observations:01 cpan:01 pointers:01 cpan:01 python:01 developping:01 librairies:01 librairies:01 facto:01 extlib:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 165 > I broadly agree with Matt's analysis of the situation. Here are some > observations of my own. > > (1) Perl gets along quite nicely with a loosely defined and broadly > distributed standard library. However what Perl has which OCaml does > not is a central repository (CPAN) where you can find all those > libraries. I don't just mean find pointers to the libraries (the > Humps), but I mean a place where you can get the actual source. [...] I don't think the main issue is technical. I'm not sure that a CPAN will help OCaml to spread, that it will turns the community into a self organizing decentralized one that makes the power of Perl, Python and other languages out there. OCaml have more social issues. Let's see the facts : A programming language need either a very good community support (so the whole community is helping developping it) or a very good businness backup ( Sun and Java ). OCaml doesn't have any : the community is mainly academic folks that are using OCaml as a (very useful) tool for their research, the INRIA is a centralized system with only small openness to user's contributions - through the wish list for example, neither having a whole team of people working 24/7 at improving the language (they're academics people, they need time to write papers, attend conferences, etc.). Industry adoption of ocaml is in earlier stages, and is not enough wide to push the language as fast as expected from the community. The language itself is still evolving, there is people doing great work on OCaml itself or other librairies, but a lot of OCaml hackers here are feeling quite quickly frustrated with the social interactions, the void of official answers when some important questions are raised, and the unability to simply discuss about what should be added/modified in the standard library. There is several ways of dealing with this : - keep continuing without changing anything, but how much time will Ocaml continue being the best language around ? - try to build librairies with the hope that they'll one time become standard (de facto , or integrated into official release) : that's what we're doing with ExtLib ( http://ocaml-lib.sf.net ) - ask INRIA to open source OCaml ( means : either GPL or recruit language team among community hackers ) - stop writing Ocaml, and switch to another language with better community integration - write your own language, and build your own community :-) One question is : will we get a single official answer to this thread ? Nicolas Cannasse ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA20153; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:00:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA20146 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:00:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from shiva.jussieu.fr (shiva.jussieu.fr [134.157.0.129]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2IC1OKW016357 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:01:24 +0100 Received: from ibm3.cicrp.jussieu.fr (ibm3.cicrp.jussieu.fr [134.157.15.3]) by shiva.jussieu.fr (8.12.10/jtpda-5.4) with ESMTP id i2IC0rDx043369 ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:00:53 +0100 (CET) X-Ids: 167 Received: from ibm1.cicrp.jussieu.fr (ibm1.cicrp.jussieu.fr [134.157.15.1]) by ibm3.cicrp.jussieu.fr (8.8.8/jtpda/mob-V8) with ESMTP id MAA81558 ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:59:27 +0100 Received: from localhost (fernande@localhost) by ibm1.cicrp.jussieu.fr (8.8.8/jtpda/mob-v8) with ESMTP id MAA712924 ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:55:44 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: ibm1.cicrp.jussieu.fr: fernande owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:55:43 +0100 (NFT) From: Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons X-X-Sender: fernande@ibm1 To: Nicolas Cannasse cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) In-Reply-To: <00cd01c40cdb$71c34410$4500a8c0@warp> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Miltered: at shiva.jussieu.fr with ID 40598F75.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr)! X-Antivirus: scanned by sophie at shiva.jussieu.fr X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; pons:01 pons:01 etu:99 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 librairies:01 facto:01 extlib:01 extlib:01 baire:01 suffisamment:01 implementer:01 foncteurs:01 defaut:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 166 Bonjour, > - try to build librairies with the hope that they'll one time become > standard (de facto, or integrated into official release) : that's > what we're doing with ExtLib (http://ocaml-lib.sf.net) Autant je suis tout a fait favorable aux initiatives qui comme ExtLib (les deux versions), Baire, MLlib ou OCamlGraph (pour ne citer que celles la) s'efforcent de mettre a disposition de la communaute des bibliotheques a usage general, autant je trouve votre position sur leur integration tout a fait contestable. Integer une bibliotheque a une distribution est un choix quasi irrevocable. Les mesaventures de SML sont suffisamment demonstratives : les differentes equipes ne sont toujours pas parvenues a se mettre d'accord et a implementer uniformement une norme qui change tout le temps alors qu'elle ne prevoit rien de plus que des tableaux, quelques foncteurs et des entrees sorties basiques. Mieux vaut ne pas imposer de bibliotheque par defaut que d'en imposer une mauvaise, quitte a paraitre peu reactif. Or aucune des bibliotheques citees ne fait l'objet d'un consensus, meme partiel. Je ne pretends pas que l'INRIA puisse pour autant faire l'economie d'une reflexion approfondie quant aux besoins des utilisateurs mais on ne saurait a mon avis condamner toutes les precautions dont il fait preuve. Diego Olivier ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA21393; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:18:43 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA19476 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:18:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from btr0x1.rz.uni-bayreuth.de (btr0x1.rz.uni-bayreuth.de [132.180.8.29]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2ICJAKW017943 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:19:10 +0100 Received: from btn1x1.inf.uni-bayreuth.de (btn1x1.inf.uni-bayreuth.de [132.180.192.6]) by btr0x1.rz.uni-bayreuth.de (8.12.10/8.12.1) with ESMTP id i2ICIXq7023993; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:18:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from btn1x5.inf.uni-bayreuth.de (btn1x5.inf.uni-bayreuth.de [132.180.192.16]) by btn1x1.inf.uni-bayreuth.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id i2ICIZ73019730; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:18:35 +0100 From: Wolfgang =?iso-8859-1?q?M=FCller?= To: "Nicolas Cannasse" Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:18:45 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <07FEC955-782B-11D8-850C-000A957FFA4A@csun.edu> <20040318103140.GA20448@redhat.com> <00cd01c40cdb$71c34410$4500a8c0@warp> In-Reply-To: <00cd01c40cdb$71c34410$4500a8c0@warp> Cc: caml-list@inria.fr MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403181218.45243.wolfgang.mueller2@uni-bayreuth.de> X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; mueller:99 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 cannasse:01 cpan:01 python:01 cpan:01 slick:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 nicolas:01 unix:02 wolfgang:02 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 167 I probably don't qualify, as I use OCaml only very rarely, however, I do have an opinion regarding your mail: On Thursday 18 March 2004 12:22, Nicolas Cannasse wrote: > I don't think the main issue is technical. I'm not sure that a CPAN will > help OCaml to spread, that it will turns the community into a self > organizing decentralized one that makes the power of Perl, Python and other > languages out there. OCaml have more social issues. Let's see the facts : Oh, I do think that it would help a lot, as people know CPAN, now how it works, know what to expect. It becomes one's own risk to use a library, yet there is an easy way to access and one easy way to tell people where to get it from. This makes it especially more simple for people who are surrounded by FP haters ;-) , and who are forced to give out slick installation packages if they want their OCaml stuff to be used. The same, it can be a goal to say: "we want this on CPAN, so anyone can install it easily". Cheers, Wolfgang ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA22696; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:42:59 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA23066 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:42:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from rabelais.socialtools.net (rabelais.socialtools.net [81.2.94.243]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2IChPKW020410 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:43:26 +0100 Received: by rabelais.socialtools.net (Postfix, from userid 108) id A19A7232FD; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:42:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from socialtools.net (chaucer.socialtools.net [81.2.94.242]) by rabelais.socialtools.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41EF4232DA; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:42:55 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4059994E.2010802@socialtools.net> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:42:54 +0000 From: Benjamin Geer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons Cc: Nicolas Cannasse , caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on rabelais.socialtools.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 pons:01 defaut:01 bug:01 discouraging:01 sourceforge:01 silently:01 open-source:01 gcc:01 gcc:01 timely:99 python:01 python:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 168 Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons wrote: > Mieux vaut ne pas imposer de bibliotheque par defaut que d'en imposer > une mauvaise, quitte a paraitre peu reactif. Or aucune des > bibliotheques citees ne fait l'objet d'un consensus, meme partiel. The problem is not simply that INRIA is too cautious, it's that there is no visible process for accepting enhancements to Caml or its libraries from outside INRIA. INRIA very rarely responds at all, either positively or negatively, to proposed modifications from outsiders (the sole exception seems to be bug fixes). Recently there has been a long discussion on this list about enhancing the Unix module, and no one from INRIA has said a word about it; this is very discouraging. Has ocaml-lib.sourceforge.net been rejected? Is INRIA silently working on its own library enhancements which will be incompatibly replace some of the enhancements developed by the community? Is there a plan for the future development of Caml? We are like the man in Kafka's novel _The Trial_, who stands for years at the door of the Law, and is never told whether he will be seen, or when, or if not, why not. Compare this to what happens in successful, healthy open-source communities: GCC has a development plan (http://gcc.gnu.org/develop.html). The core developers discuss all proposed enhancements on the mailing list. The steering committee makes clear, timely decisions about which changes will be included in each release. Thanks to this plan, a wide variety of companies and individuals contribute to GCC. Python has excellent standard libraries not because there is always 100% consensus on what to put in them, but because there is a clear process for extending them (http://www.python.org/peps/). The Python project leader responds quickly to proposals, participates in discussion, and makes clear, justified decisions. I think Caml desperately needs an explicit development plan and a clear, efficient process for accepting enhancements from the community. Until it has these, it will not be able to meet the needs of its users; many of its users will be increasingly frustrated, and will eventually abandon it. Ben ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA22783; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:55:00 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA24084 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:54:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from alex.baretta.com ([213.255.109.130]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2ICtQKW021712 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:55:27 +0100 Received: from baretta.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by alex.baretta.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i2ICtKZo003409 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:55:21 +0100 Message-ID: <40599C38.3050903@baretta.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:55:20 +0100 From: Alex Baretta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ocaml Subject: [Caml-list] Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; baretta:01 baretta:01 ocaml's:01 pons:01 suffisamment:01 implementer:01 foncteurs:01 hashtbl:01 val:01 hashtbl:01 val:01 mymap:01 stateful:01 functor:01 instantiate:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 169 Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons wrote: > > Integer une bibliotheque a une distribution est un choix quasi > irrevocable. Les mesaventures de SML sont suffisamment demonstratives > : les differentes equipes ne sont toujours pas parvenues a se mettre > d'accord et a implementer uniformement une norme qui change tout le > temps alors qu'elle ne prevoit rien de plus que des tableaux, quelques > foncteurs et des entrees sorties basiques. Diego is right. We don't need to integrate all external contributions to the standard library. Yes, a central repository would be cool, and my company, too, would help finance it or staff it. Yet, the Caml team should consider some necessary completions or corrections to the standard library. Here are some points worth considering: * We have functional Maps and imperative Hashtbls; we have imperative Queues but no functional BatchedQueues or the like. I have a BatchedQueue module which I'd be more than glad to contribute to the standard library, but it's really a half hour job anyway. * We have data structure modules with grossly incoherent signatures: (* Hashtbl module *) val add : ('a, 'b) t -> 'a -> 'b -> unit e.g. Hashtbl.add table key value (* Map.S signature *) val add : key -> 'a -> 'a t -> 'a e.g. MyMap.add key value map * Ocaml is a functional programming language but the only regular expression library in the standard distribution (Str) is stateful (hence, non-reentrant) library. A better approach that would guarantee an ample degree of backward compatibility would be to create and Str.Make functor instantiating a copy of all the state variables, so that multithreaded programs could instantiate a copy of Str for every thread. It would be something. Yet a functional regexp library is needed in the standard distribution. I could probably think of a couple more issues if I had time enough. Anyhow, such inconsistencies and deficiencies should be avoided in well-thought standard library for a well thought and well supported "programming tool of choice for the discriminating hacker". In my opinion, it would be reasonable for INRIA to delegate the development of such a replacement standard library to a managed community project (see Mozilla, the Linux kernel, the Fedora project and whatnot). The community could do a lot to support the Ocaml development effort, if only there were some official protocol for cooperation with the official Caml team. *** In consideration of our common belief that all Camlers are created equal and endowed by their License with certain unalienable rights, and that among these are Use, Modification, and the pursuit of Higher abstractions, it is their duty, to throw off such a Standard Library, and to provide new Modules for their future software development. Alex "Hancock" Baretta, with some help from Tom Jefferson ;) ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id OAA20505; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:19:33 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA25164 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:19:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu (PACIFIC-CARRIER-ANNEX.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.83]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2IDJUHd024950 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:19:31 +0100 Received: from central-city-carrier-station.mit.edu (CENTRAL-CITY-CARRIER-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.72]) by pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu (8.12.4/8.9.2) with ESMTP id i2IDJRc5010216 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:19:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (MELBOURNE-CITY-STREET.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.86]) by central-city-carrier-station.mit.edu (8.12.4/8.9.2) with ESMTP id i2IDEShD026553 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:14:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from nerd-xing.mit.edu (NERD-XING.MIT.EDU [18.7.16.74]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as jfc@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id i2IDCaTC012712 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:12:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from jfc@localhost) by nerd-xing.mit.edu (8.12.9) id i2IDCaDI010697; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:12:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200403181312.i2IDCaDI010697@nerd-xing.mit.edu> To: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:22:12 +0100." <00cd01c40cdb$71c34410$4500a8c0@warp> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:12:36 -0500 From: John Carr X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 jfc:01 barrier:01 model:01 model:01 gcc:01 compilers:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 unix:02 library:03 perl:03 cathedral:95 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 170 > Industry adoption of ocaml is in earlier stages, and is not enough > wide to push the language as fast as expected from the community. There is a significant barrier to entry that is mostly independent of the development model. Here's what my boss told me when I suggested using ocaml in a commercial product: 1. Nobody else knows the language. 2. It doesn't run on our platform. 3. It will break and we can't get support. An open or closed development model will not by itself change the perceptions that prevent me from using ocaml at work. The only way I could have overcome objections 2 and 3 would have been to show a way to get contract support, as is available for operating system components and commercial compilers. Perl was so popular that it became an OS component. gcc was so popular that companies were willing to invest the money to turn it into a commercial product. ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id OAA27948; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:56:53 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA27677 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:56:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from aomori.annexia.org (annexia.force9.co.uk [212.56.101.183]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2IDupHd030592 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:56:51 +0100 Received: from rich by aomori.annexia.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B3y0x-0006Le-00 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:56:51 +0000 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:56:50 +0000 Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040318135650.GB23915@redhat.com> References: <00cd01c40cdb$71c34410$4500a8c0@warp> <200403181312.i2IDCaDI010697@nerd-xing.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200403181312.i2IDCaDI010697@nerd-xing.mit.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Richard Jones X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 shelves:99 specialists:99 threads:01 widget:01 ocaml's:01 slower:01 model:01 ltd:98 compilers:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 172 On Thu, Mar 18, 2004 at 08:12:36AM -0500, John Carr wrote: > 1. Nobody else knows the language. > 2. It doesn't run on our platform. > 3. It will break and we can't get support. These things will always be a problem until OCaml becomes (to use a marketing term) a "whole product". This means that it has a full suite of supporting skills and documentation. There are currently two books, and a few web tutorials. For OCaml to become a whole product we'd need to see a few shelves full of books at the local bookstore, and specialists in each city offering support, and major external companies signing on. Nevertheless, these things happen: if no one was ever an early adopter, then nothing new would ever happen! Perhaps your company isn't ready to be an early adopter for risky new technologies. Others will adopt, and the whole product may come about eventually from this. But, the structure of OCaml development might prevent this from happening in the long run. The timescales for a product to turn from early adopter to widely adopted whole product are on the order of ten years. [ http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000017.html ] (It's no accident that Ruby is about ten years old, and for the first time there's now a shelf of books on Ruby at Foyles on Charing Cross Road). Because of these long timescales, I believe that the process is very sensitive to small differences along the way. Potentially, a small change in the OCaml development process might either kill off adoption of OCaml, or might make it more rapid. To give you an example of this thinking: computer languages are in a constant race with each other to add new features. In the last decade I personally have gone from C compilers where the most innovative feature might have been support for threads, or an ANSI-compatible string library, all the way to languages like Perl where in a few lines of code you can download a web page, parse it into a DOM and insert the results into a database, or display it in an embedded Gtk Mozilla widget. The number and range of libraries that you need today in a new computer language is just staggering to compete with what is already available in the likes of Perl or Java SDK or .NET (Microsoft was able to throw thousands of developers at the problem which is why they created the whole of .NET in relatively few years - no other company on earth has that luxury). This means that if OCaml's development process is, on average, just slightly slower than the average (however that would be measured) then OCaml will NEVER overtake other languages and become widely adopted. In this sense, an open, rapid development model is vital, and an unresponsive team at INRIA could kill adoption, and eventually any chances the language has of becoming widely used. Rich. -- Richard Jones. http://www.annexia.org/ http://www.j-london.com/ Merjis Ltd. http://www.merjis.com/ - improving website return on investment http://www.YouUnlimited.co.uk/ - management courses ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id PAA29270; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:17:11 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA29143 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:17:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from pauillac.inria.fr (pauillac.inria.fr [128.93.11.35]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2IECZHd000312; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:12:35 +0100 Received: (from xleroy@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id PAA29277; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:12:34 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:12:34 +0100 From: Xavier Leroy To: Benjamin Geer Cc: Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons , Nicolas Cannasse , caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040318151234.B21768@pauillac.inria.fr> References: <4059994E.2010802@socialtools.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4059994E.2010802@socialtools.net>; from ben@socialtools.net on Thu, Mar 18, 2004 at 12:42:54PM +0000 X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 run-time:01 cdk:01 enrich:01 interfere:01 cpan:01 gerd:01 pursued:99 cpan:01 bug:01 regexps:01 hashtables:01 camlp:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 173 This discussion is heating up, so allow me to make a few points. One should carefully distinguish between the core OCaml distribution (the one that comes out of INRIA) and the whole OCaml programming environment, which includes a lot of third-party libraries and tools. The core OCaml distribution should and will remain just that: the core, i.e. the compilers, run-time system and the tools and libraries that are closely intertwined with the first two. We at INRIA do not have the manpower to maintain, document and make distributions of a much larger software set. (Witness the problems with the CDK.) We are commited to developing and maintaining that core. I agree we do this in a "cathedral" style, but this is intended and unlikely to change. For everything else, bazaar-style developments from members of this community are most welcome, and indeed the preferred way to enrich the OCaml programming environment. A developer has an itch to scratch, develops and releases a library or tool, gets it listed on the Hump, users pick it up if it's good, discuss bugs, features and enhancements with the developer, etc. There is absolutely no reason we at INRIA should interfere with this process: in general, we don't have the manpower to play a significant role, and we don't have the competences either (many libraries and tools require expertise in application domains that we're not familiar with, e.g. database interfaces). There remains a problem of how to make it easy for everyone to install and use these third-party contributions. CPAN managed to do it through standardization on naming conventions, configuration and installation procedures, and a *lot* of discipline from the contributors. We aren't quite at this point with OCaml, although Gerd Stolpmann's GODI is an impressive first step in this direction. Again, it's up to this community to tell whether this is a good approach that should be pursued, e.g. by providing GODI packaging from your own libraries. One cannot just wish there would be a CPAN for OCaml and just wait for us INRIA folks to come up with it overnight. > The problem is not simply that INRIA is too cautious, it's that there is > no visible process for accepting enhancements to Caml or its libraries > from outside INRIA. INRIA very rarely responds at all, either > positively or negatively, to proposed modifications from outsiders (the > sole exception seems to be bug fixes). Don't attribute to malice what is generally a lack of time. What do you prefer: that I pontificate on every idea proposed on this mailing list, or that I fix bugs? As I said above, the preferred way to contribute to Caml is through independent libraries and tools, not by aiming at getting your stuff in the core OCaml distribution. There are good reasons why we are very careful indeed with what goes in it: - As Diego said, it's extremely painful to roll back a change or addition that turns out to be a bad idea, because of backward compatibility issues. - Maintenance and documentation takes a lot of time. Often, it looks like contributors expect us to maintain their contributed code. - Copyright issues are not trivial. It's important for INRIA and the Caml consortium to own the copyright on everything in the core distribution. Significant contributions by others would therefore require copyright transfers, whose legality in the French copyright law is unclear. Moreover, a *lot* of the suggested enhancements can be done equally well, if not better, without touching the core OCaml distribution. A typical example is syntactic sugar (for regexps, for hashtables, etc): all this can easily be done as Camlp4 syntax extensions, so don't expect it to end up in the (already way too rich) core language syntax. > Recently there has been a long discussion on this list about enhancing > the Unix module, and no one from INRIA has said a word about it; this is > very discouraging. Again, this is essentially by lack of time. If you want my opinion on this discussion: - Changing the organization and naming of the Unix library is out of the question. Yes, it could be organized a bit more nicely, but that doesn't deserve breaking all the existing code that uses it. Still, the Caml module system makes it easy to wrap existing code in a different interface, so everyone is welcome to come up with a differently-structued OS interface. - IPv6 support is on my to do list. Missing POSIX syscalls can be added on a case by case basis if there is clear need. Having a full POSIX interface just for the sake of it is low on my priorities. - Extending the Unix library is a lot harder than what most contributors realize, because of portability and autoconfiguration issues. The world isn't just the latest Linux release. Writing and testing the autoconf code for an extension (e.g. IPv6) is often harder than writing the C-Caml wrapper code for it. > Has ocaml-lib.sourceforge.net been rejected? By whom? It seems like ExtLib is progressing, and if it's good it will be widely adopted by OCaml users (just like, say, Markus Mottl's PCRE library was widely adopted). I don't have anything to say on this matter. > INRIA silently working on its own library enhancements which will be > incompatibly replace some of the enhancements developed by the > community? As a matter of fact, no, we're not. But even if we were, these would not "replace" the work done by others, but at most compete with it. Users get to choose. > Is there a plan for the future development of Caml? The short-term plans are stabilizing the core distribution, preserve compatibility, and refrain from major user-visible changes. We are discussing some internal changes e.g. on the run-time representation of objects, but these should not change the user's view of the system. If GODI doesn't take up, maybe we'll invest more efforts into library packaging and installation frameworks. > We are like the man in Kafka's novel _The Trial_, who stands for > years at the door of the Law, and is never told whether he will be > seen, or when, or if not, why not. Aren't you overdoing it a little bit? :-) - Xavier Leroy ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id SAA14528; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 18:18:19 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA08775; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 18:18:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from rabelais.socialtools.net (rabelais.socialtools.net [81.2.94.243]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2IHIiKW018816; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 18:18:45 +0100 Received: by rabelais.socialtools.net (Postfix, from userid 108) id 9D936232FD; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:18:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from socialtools.net (chaucer.socialtools.net [81.2.94.242]) by rabelais.socialtools.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5740D232DA; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:18:14 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4059D9D6.4080903@socialtools.net> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:18:14 +0000 From: Benjamin Geer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Xavier Leroy Cc: Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons , Nicolas Cannasse , caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) References: <4059994E.2010802@socialtools.net> <20040318151234.B21768@pauillac.inria.fr> In-Reply-To: <20040318151234.B21768@pauillac.inria.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on rabelais.socialtools.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 baretta:01 reuse:01 incompatible:01 sourceforge:01 extlib:01 pcre:01 extlib:01 incompatible:01 silently:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 caml:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 174 Xavier Leroy wrote: > What do > you prefer: that I pontificate on every idea proposed on this mailing > list, or that I fix bugs? I think you should do what you do best and have time to do, which is work on the core of OCaml, and delegate the development of the standard libraries to a community structure, as Alex Baretta proposed. I think the community has shown that it can do at least as good a job as INRIA at developing the standard libraries, and (more importantly) has more time to do so and is much more interested in doing so. > As I said above, the preferred way to contribute to Caml is through > independent libraries and tools, It is not in anyone's interest for there to be different competing versions of the Unix module, just to take one example. It is much easier to reuse code (or just to read other people's code) if there is one standard library module for each of the most basic problem domains. I don't mind seeing several different XML parsers, but it makes programmers' lives very difficult if there are several different versions of, say, List, all incompatible with each other. >>Has ocaml-lib.sourceforge.net been rejected? > > By whom? It seems like ExtLib is progressing, and if it's good it > will be widely adopted by OCaml users (just like, say, Markus Mottl's > PCRE library was widely adopted). I don't have anything to say on > this matter. If I understand correctly, ExtLib changes the behaviour of certain standard library modules in a way that's incompatible with the official distribution. >>INRIA silently working on its own library enhancements which will be >>incompatibly replace some of the enhancements developed by the >>community? > > As a matter of fact, no, we're not. But even if we were, these would > not "replace" the work done by others, but at most compete with it. > Users get to choose. Users emphatically do not want to have to choose between using the standard library and using a third-party library. This forces them to place a bet: which library is more likely to provide more useful features in the future? This is surely one reason why ExtLib has not been more actively developed and more widely adopted. This problem would be solved if INRIA allowed the community to take responsibility for the standard libraries. Ben ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id SAA10696; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 18:55:52 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA11181 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 18:55:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from alex.baretta.com ([213.255.109.130]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2IHuJKW022956 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 18:56:20 +0100 Received: from baretta.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by alex.baretta.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i2IHuDZo004360; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 18:56:14 +0100 Message-ID: <4059E2BD.6060902@baretta.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 18:56:13 +0100 From: Alex Baretta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Benjamin Geer , Ocaml Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) References: <4059994E.2010802@socialtools.net> <20040318151234.B21768@pauillac.inria.fr> <4059D9D6.4080903@socialtools.net> In-Reply-To: <4059D9D6.4080903@socialtools.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; baretta:01 baretta:01 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 extlib:01 delegating:01 thrive:99 tapping:99 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 caml:01 alex:01 alex:01 unix:02 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 175 Benjamin Geer wrote: > Users emphatically do not want to have to choose between using the > standard library and using a third-party library. This forces them to > place a bet: which library is more likely to provide more useful > features in the future? This is surely one reason why ExtLib has not > been more actively developed and more widely adopted. > > This problem would be solved if INRIA allowed the community to take > responsibility for the standard libraries. > > Ben I agree. And, let me add, Inria can get quite a bit of resources, financial and human, by delegating to the community. We are willing to participate, and like us a lot of others. Xavier, what you guys must do is not pontificate but define once and for all the official role of the community in relation to Inria and to the Caml team. Hey, after all we are as eager as you guys to see Ocaml grow and thrive. But the effort cannot start from the community. It must be backed by authoritative leaders, M. Xavier Leroy being a reasonable candidate. Take advantage of the opportunity of tapping the community's time and work for the benefit of Ocaml as a whole: research project, industrial product, free-software community. See what Mozilla has been to Netscape. Alex ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id TAA12713; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 19:33:35 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA13249 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 19:33:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from fichte.ai.univie.ac.at (fichte.ai.univie.ac.at [131.130.174.156]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2IIXWHd000974 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 19:33:33 +0100 Received: from fichte.ai.univie.ac.at (markus@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fichte.ai.univie.ac.at (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.6) with ESMTP id i2IIXQHn009051; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 19:33:26 +0100 Received: (from markus@localhost) by fichte.ai.univie.ac.at (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.6) id i2IIXPuA009050; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 19:33:25 +0100 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 19:33:25 +0100 From: Markus Mottl To: Alex Baretta Cc: Benjamin Geer , Ocaml Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040318183325.GD1233@fichte.ai.univie.ac.at> Mail-Followup-To: Alex Baretta , Benjamin Geer , Ocaml References: <4059994E.2010802@socialtools.net> <20040318151234.B21768@pauillac.inria.fr> <4059D9D6.4080903@socialtools.net> <4059E2BD.6060902@baretta.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4059E2BD.6060902@baretta.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 baretta:01 compiler:01 compilers:01 ocaml:01 caml:01 alex:01 alex:01 mottl:02 mottl:02 unix:02 silly:02 wrote:03 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 178 On Thu, 18 Mar 2004, Alex Baretta wrote: > Xavier, what you guys must do is not pontificate but define once and > for all the official role of the community in relation to Inria and > to the Caml team. Well, to add my two cents to this discussion, I don't think we can say "you guys must do", the simple reason being that the question is rather whether they "can do" (in terms of time/resources). I mostly agree with Xavier that the "Cathedral style" is the better choice for the development of the language and compilers. I also believe that the standard libraries shipped with the compiler should remain in the "Cathedral", too. But I also agree with Alex that INRIA should more clearly define standards that give the community some stability what concerns the way of contributing. This is an age-old topic! Some kind of package management in the spirit of GODI would be very nice indeed, and I think that this should also become part of the "Cathedral", because it would otherwise not take off easily. Package management is such a basic and important tool that really everybody using OCaml would need. As an incentive to INRIA, just imagine how much peace and time for research you could have with good, portable package management: no more silly user requests about adding more stuff to the standard libraries! What concerns other contributions, be it datastructures, more fully featured system libraries, etc., this is all too specific to be done in a cathedral and should therefore remain part of the "Bazaar". I don't expect INRIA to develop or maintain such libraries for us (even though I'd be very grateful :-). Regards, Markus -- Markus Mottl http://www.oefai.at/~markus markus@oefai.at ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id TAA14615; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 19:57:06 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA15008 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 19:57:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2IIv2Hd003726 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 19:57:03 +0100 Received: (qmail 29792 invoked by uid 64014); 18 Mar 2004 18:57:01 -0000 Received: from shawnw@speakeasy.org by mail6.speakeasy.net with AmikaGuardian-Server-2.1.2; 18 Mar 2004 18:57:01 -0000 X-AmikaGuardian-Id: mail6.speakeasy.net107963622026129758 X-AmikaGuardian-Category: AN:Override Structure : 1.95 X-AmikaGuardian-Category: AN:Vectored : 1.95 X-AmikaGuardian-Category: AN:Forwarded Mail : 1.95 X-AmikaGuardian-Category: AN:Override : 1.95 X-AmikaGuardian-Category: AN:Exception : 1.95 X-AmikaGuardian-Action: Do Nothing() Received: from dialup-67.75.211.135.dial1.seattle.level3.net (HELO sherlock.localdomain) (shawnw@[67.75.211.135]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 18 Mar 2004 18:57:00 -0000 Received: by sherlock.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 502) id 4AB6A113AE; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 10:57:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 10:57:23 -0800 From: Shawn Wagner To: caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040318185723.GE27866@speakeasy.org> Mail-Followup-To: caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr References: <07FEC955-782B-11D8-850C-000A957FFA4A@csun.edu> <20040318001905.36025.qmail@web41206.mail.yahoo.com> <20040318085638.GA11753@swordfish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040318085638.GA11753@swordfish> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2i X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; shawnw:01 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 gushee:01 --a:99 extlib:01 facto:01 extlib:01 namespaces:01 shawnw:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 0700,:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 179 On Thu, Mar 18, 2004 at 01:56:38AM -0700, Matt Gushee wrote: > > What if there were an "OCaml Community Library Project"--a group outside > INRIA that would take responsibility for extending and perhaps partially > replacing the standard library--maybe a bit like the current ExtLib > project, only more extensive (BTW, why are there two ExtLibs?? One of > you change the name, please! Thank you.). Maybe if that project showed > itself to be responsible, credible, reliable, etc. etc., after a while > it could become the de facto standard library. > There are two extlibs because two different people decided to release libraries filling in gaps in the standard library, using the obvious name, without knowing about the existance of another such effort. When the other extlib was announced quite a while ago, I talked with its author, and that the time neither one of us were willing to change names. Since then, the other one (That most people have mentioned here) doesn't seem to be being actively maintained the way mine is; as of a couple of days ago, when I checked, there hadn't been any commits to its CVS tree in months. That makes me, at least, even less likely to change my extlib's name than I was 6 months ago. Even if one of us did change the name of ours, there would still be problems if someone wanted to use both, because some modules have the same names. I've also noticed other libraries recently where that sort of colllision would be a problem. As the available number of libraries for ocaml grows, it'll get worse. High on my wish-list for the core ocaml system is namespaces or something similiar to help resolve this problem. -- Shawn Wagner shawnw@speakeasy.org ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id UAA14650; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 20:00:11 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA15091 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 20:00:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from hirsch.in-berlin.de (hirsch.in-berlin.de [192.109.42.6]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2IJ0cKW029598 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 20:00:38 +0100 X-Envelope-From: oliver@first.in-berlin.de X-Envelope-To: Received: from hirsch.in-berlin.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hirsch.in-berlin.de (8.12.11/8.12.11/Debian-3) with ESMTP id i2IJ02vB006622 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 20:00:06 +0100 Received: from first.UUCP (uucp@localhost) by hirsch.in-berlin.de (8.12.11/8.12.11/Debian-3) with UUCP id i2IIoBcw005731 for inria.fr!caml-list; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 19:50:11 +0100 Received: by first.in-berlin.de via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.114) Thu, 18 Mar 2004 19:41:18 +0100 (CET) From: oliver@first.in-berlin.de (Oliver Bandel) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 19:41:18 +0100 To: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040318184118.GC702@first.in-berlin.de> References: <00cd01c40cdb$71c34410$4500a8c0@warp> <200403181312.i2IDCaDI010697@nerd-xing.mit.edu> <20040318135650.GB23915@redhat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040318135650.GB23915@redhat.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; oliver:01 in-berlin:01 oliver:01 bandel:01 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 2004:99 shelves:99 specialists:99 ocaml's:01 slower:01 model:01 cpan:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 180 On Thu, Mar 18, 2004 at 01:56:50PM +0000, Richard Jones wrote: > On Thu, Mar 18, 2004 at 08:12:36AM -0500, John Carr wrote: > > 1. Nobody else knows the language. > > 2. It doesn't run on our platform. > > 3. It will break and we can't get support. > > These things will always be a problem until OCaml becomes (to use a > marketing term) a "whole product". This means that it has a full > suite of supporting skills and documentation. There are currently two > books, and a few web tutorials. For OCaml to become a whole product > we'd need to see a few shelves full of books at the local bookstore, > and specialists in each city offering support, and major external > companies signing on. Point 1 => same problem as with Linux about ten years ago Point 2 => really not running on that platform? Point 3 => The INRIA-cathedral will help to prevent this problem in the sense of "we do not allow any hacker to make changes in the core language" [...] > > This means that if OCaml's development process is, on average, just > slightly slower than the average (however that would be measured) then > OCaml will NEVER overtake other languages and become widely adopted. > In this sense, an open, rapid development model is vital, and an > unresponsive team at INRIA could kill adoption, and eventually any > chances the language has of becoming widely used. IMHO OCaml is some decades in the future... what you can do with OCaml right now (the language, not necessarily the additional libraries and the programs you can find as free-software) is much, much more powerful than what you can do in other languages. I was astouned how powerful the language is, compared to Perl. If I prefer OCaml to Perl, even if Perl has more libraries and modules (via CPAN), becaus eof the power of the language, then this is MY decision. An d I think I have reasons for this decision. When "the other people" don't decide to use Ocaml, so that is not my problem. Yes, it would be nice to use that language on a job, not only in own provate projects. But I don't think that the bazaar-method will change one of the above prejudices. It's not a matter of the developing method, it's a matter of hype, of marketing and many prejudices, as you also can see on the topic of fuzzy logic. It's bad, stupid, silly.... and functional programming.... ...most people think that "functional programming" is what imperative non-OO languages provide: They have problems with the name "functional". Often people think: C++ is object-oriented and C is functional. So when you mention a functional language, people often say it's old stuff, because you don't mention OOP. You can't stop ignorance and prejudice with a different developing method! Ciao, Oliver ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id VAA18814; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 21:10:25 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA18683 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 21:10:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from biscayne-one-station.mit.edu (BISCAYNE-ONE-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.80]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2IKAMHd012020 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 21:10:23 +0100 Received: from melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (MELBOURNE-CITY-STREET.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.86]) by biscayne-one-station.mit.edu (8.12.4/8.9.2) with ESMTP id i2IKAMaS004063 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:10:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from nerd-xing.mit.edu (NERD-XING.MIT.EDU [18.7.16.74]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as jfc@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id i2IKAKTC004319 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:10:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (from jfc@localhost) by nerd-xing.mit.edu (8.12.9) id i2IKAK1a008157; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:10:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> To: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 18 Mar 2004 19:41:18 +0100." <20040318184118.GC702@first.in-berlin.de> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:10:20 -0500 From: John Carr X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 jfc:01 bug:01 bug:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 complexity:02 unix:02 library:03 library:03 suppose:03 shadow:03 cathedral:95 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 183 > > 1. Nobody else knows the language. > > 2. It doesn't run on our platform. > > 3. It will break and we can't get support. > > Point 1 => same problem as with Linux about ten years ago > > Point 2 => really not running on that platform? > > Point 3 => The INRIA-cathedral will help to prevent this problem > in the sense of "we do not allow any hacker to make > changes in the core language" Suppose we find a bug in ocaml that impacts our product. Whose job is it to fix the bug? Neither "a network of hackers" nor "some academic researchers in France, if they have the time" is an acceptable answer. We pay a company to provide us with an embedded Linux environment including cross-compilation tools. While in reality ocaml will be more reliable than g++ due to the vast difference in complexity, that doesn't overcome the fear. Consider points 2 and 3 as axioms. They were dictated to me by management and were not subject to debate. As long as there is a shadow of a doubt about support, ocaml won't be used where I work. The library system is troublesome -- non-core libraries need other libraries, which need other libraries, and so on -- but in this case it didn't make a difference. ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id WAA21404; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 22:16:26 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA23134 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 22:16:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from kefka.frap.net (adsl-64-162-212-212.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.162.212.212]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2ILGqKW009573 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 22:16:53 +0100 Received: by kefka.frap.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7A57B6A4C29; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:16:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:16:15 -0800 From: Kenneth Knowles To: caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040318211615.GA6024@kefka.frap.net> References: <07FEC955-782B-11D8-850C-000A957FFA4A@csun.edu> <20040318001905.36025.qmail@web41206.mail.yahoo.com> <20040318085638.GA11753@swordfish> <20040318185723.GE27866@speakeasy.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040318185723.GE27866@speakeasy.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; knowles:99 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 2004:99 gushee:01 namespaces:01 namespaces:01 cpan-like:01 dependencies:01 compile-time:01 -pack:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 184 On Thu, Mar 18, 2004 at 10:57:23AM -0800, Shawn Wagner wrote: > On Thu, Mar 18, 2004 at 01:56:38AM -0700, Matt Gushee wrote: > Even if one of us did change the name of ours, there would still be problems > if someone wanted to use both, because some modules have the same names. > I've also noticed other libraries recently where that sort of colllision > would be a problem. As the available number of libraries for ocaml grows, > it'll get worse. High on my wish-list for the core ocaml system is > namespaces or something similiar to help resolve this problem. I was just thinking about this today on the train... The thing that solves it for perl is for modules to appear to be inside each other even though they are developed/installed separately. I agree that the ocaml syntax already gives more sugar and different ways of doing things than is really necessary, so I really feel namespaces and modules would be redundant. For ocaml, since modules are not first-class, wouldn't it just be a compilation frontend issue to do this merging (in addition to some syntax to declare module X.Y)? I'm just pondering, but it seems possible and remarkably useful in order to move towards a CPAN-like module repository. Dependencies between modules would naturally cause compile-time failure if they were not present, which is desirable. This seems like one simple step which would enormously increase the ability of the community to more effectively contribute libraries and modules, and halt a lot of complaints to the INRIA team. On the bright side, at least the collisions are only at the module level... if each library contained all modules in a larger module, such as with the -pack option, then only this outer name need be unique. Kenn ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id XAA27295; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 23:32:48 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA27043 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 23:32:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from sark.cc.gatech.edu (sark.cc.gatech.edu [130.207.7.23]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2IMWkHd027091 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 23:32:46 +0100 Received: from gaia.cc.gatech.edu (gaia.cc.gatech.edu [130.207.3.8]) by sark.cc.gatech.edu (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i2IMWifR017269; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:32:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from fernando@localhost) by gaia.cc.gatech.edu (8.12.10/8.12.8) id i2IMWhhS029094; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:32:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:32:43 -0500 From: Fernando Alegre To: Kenneth Knowles Cc: caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040318223243.GA26776@gaia.cc.gatech.edu> References: <07FEC955-782B-11D8-850C-000A957FFA4A@csun.edu> <20040318001905.36025.qmail@web41206.mail.yahoo.com> <20040318085638.GA11753@swordfish> <20040318185723.GE27866@speakeasy.org> <20040318211615.GA6024@kefka.frap.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040318211615.GA6024@kefka.frap.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; alegre:01 gatech:01 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 knowles:99 namespaces:01 cpan-like:01 dependencies:01 compile-time:01 pervasives:01 -stdlib:01 -stdlib:01 camlp:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 185 On Thu, Mar 18, 2004 at 01:16:15PM -0800, Kenneth Knowles wrote: > > it'll get worse. High on my wish-list for the core ocaml system is > > namespaces or something similiar to help resolve this problem. > > For ocaml, since modules are not first-class, wouldn't it just be a compilation > frontend issue to do this merging (in addition to some syntax to declare module > X.Y)? I'm just pondering, but it seems possible and remarkably useful in order > to move towards a CPAN-like module repository. Dependencies between modules > would naturally cause compile-time failure if they were not present, which is > desirable. This seems like one simple step which would enormously increase the > ability of the community to more effectively contribute libraries and modules, > and halt a lot of complaints to the INRIA team. I also think a few more switches in the compiler would mostly put an end to most complaints and give the community the necessary tools to extend/replace the libraries. In particular, I feel this is needed: 1) A -pre_open switch that opens a given module (searched along the -I path) This would allow people to replace Pervasives with a custom module. 2) -stdlib switches that change the path for the standard library so that subsequent -I +path is searched under the current standard library path. Several -stdlib switches should be allowed in the same compilation. 3) A firm commitment by the Ocaml team to maintain camlp4 in the future in the same terms as the rest of the ocaml core. This would be essential for extensions that depend on syntactic manipulation (such regexps) to become widespread. The -pre_open switch seems powerful enough to allow namespace management, since an extLib module could then be something like this: extLib.ml: module List = ExtList module Array = ExtArray ... Then, users would be able to switch between the standard library and extLib without modifying their code by compiling like this: ocamlc -pre_open extLib.cmo mycode.ml Fernando ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id AAA29543; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:20:42 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA29325 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:20:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from aomori.annexia.org (annexia.force9.co.uk [212.56.101.183]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2INL9KW020921 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:21:09 +0100 Received: from rich by aomori.annexia.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B46oa-0000V6-00 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 23:20:40 +0000 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 23:20:39 +0000 Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040318232039.GA1912@redhat.com> References: <20040318184118.GC702@first.in-berlin.de> <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Richard Jones X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 bug:01 bug:01 ltd:98 compilers:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 caml:01 unix:02 wrote:03 library:03 suppose:03 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 186 On Thu, Mar 18, 2004 at 03:10:20PM -0500, John Carr wrote: > Suppose we find a bug in ocaml that impacts our product. > Whose job is it to fix the bug? Neither "a network of > hackers" nor "some academic researchers in France, if they > have the time" is an acceptable answer. This is really why the licensing of the compilers *does* matter. Rich. -- Richard Jones. http://www.annexia.org/ http://www.j-london.com/ Merjis Ltd. http://www.merjis.com/ - improving website return on investment Learning Objective CAML for C, C++, Perl and Java programmers: http://www.merjis.com/richj/computers/ocaml/tutorial/ ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id AAA30290; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:31:28 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA30423 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:31:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from rabelais.socialtools.net (rabelais.socialtools.net [81.2.94.243]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2INVOHd000917 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:31:25 +0100 Received: by rabelais.socialtools.net (Postfix, from userid 108) id 651CE232FD; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 23:31:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from socialtools.net (chaucer.socialtools.net [81.2.94.242]) by rabelais.socialtools.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F55B232DA; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 23:31:23 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <405A314A.8070006@socialtools.net> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 23:31:22 +0000 From: Benjamin Geer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Carr Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) References: <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on rabelais.socialtools.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 bug:01 ocaml:01 complexity:02 unix:02 wrote:03 library:03 cathedral:95 carr:05 embedded:05 generally:05 completeness:93 feature:07 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 187 John Carr wrote: > We pay a company > to provide us with an embedded Linux environment including > cross-compilation tools. While in reality ocaml will be > more reliable than g++ due to the vast difference in > complexity, that doesn't overcome the fear. Moreover, because g++ has an open development process, if that company fixes a bug in g++, or adds a generally useful feature, you can be pretty sure that it will end up in an official release of g++ as long as it is well-written and well-tested. This very fact encourages such companies to appear. Ben ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id AAA30904; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:41:50 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA30210 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:41:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.189]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2INfmHd002567 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:41:48 +0100 Received: from [212.227.126.160] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1B4792-0004pl-00 for caml-list@inria.fr; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:41:48 +0100 Received: from [80.129.113.195] (helo=gate.gerd-stolpmann.de) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1B4791-00070H-00 for caml-list@inria.fr; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:41:47 +0100 Received: from ice.gerd-stolpmann.de (ice.gerd-stolpmann.de [192.168.0.13]) by gate.gerd-stolpmann.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id C87E156C0 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:41:46 +0100 (CET) Received: by ice.gerd-stolpmann.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 02BFEB035; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:41:45 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) From: Gerd Stolpmann To: caml-list@inria.fr In-Reply-To: <20040318151234.B21768@pauillac.inria.fr> References: <4059994E.2010802@socialtools.net> <20040318151234.B21768@pauillac.inria.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1079653304.990.89.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:41:45 +0100 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:a6865a839c0178d9aa0ce41878507ea2 X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 gerd:01 stolpmann:01 delivers:99 dlls:01 urged:99 findlib:01 findlib:01 cpan:01 barrier:01 organises:99 policies:99 stdlib:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 188 This whole discussion is interesting because it shows that the users of ocaml have expectations for a good language environment. There seems to be some confusion, however, that the core ocaml product is not a complete environment, and that third-party tools and libraries are needed. The confusion is that it becomes unclear who can be made responsible for improving the environment. The Unix module was mentioned as an example. For me, I am quite happy that the Cathedral limits itself, and that it does not try to incorporate more components than needed. There would be also lots of problems in a world where the Cathedral delivers all important components, e.g. it would be harder to get bugs fixed. So please, don't dream of that. It might turn into a nightmare. In the case of Unix, I do not see any advantages of developing improvements within the Cathedral, this can really be done on the Bazaar. Maybe there are some corner cases (e.g. IPv6 sockets) that would require cooperation, but my experience is that INRIA finally accepts good proposals (e.g. remember of DLLs, users urged INRIA to implement it). Of course, the Bazaar needs a bit more organisation, and as you know, I wrote software supporting this: Findlib and GODI. Findlib is mature software, even from a professional point of view, and many people are already using it. GODI is already usable. So the technical solutions exist (that means: THERE IS A CPAN FOR OCAML, although it uses a different implementation for a different language, and does not match C.*AN), and the remaining question is: Does the community accept it? I don't mean technical acceptance here, because this is usually not the barrier keeping people away when the software works, but acceptance in a social way: GODI would be accepted when it would be the usual way to install ocaml. Of course, this a quite ambitious goal, but also the natural one for such a project. I am glad to hear encouraging words from Xavier Leroy. In order to reach this goal, a number of questions should be answered (best as some kind of community process): - How can people participate (add packages, fix bugs, improve the base software)? - How can the quality be ensured? - How are decisions made? - How can the platform be kept open? My vision for GODI is that it limits itself to a platform for software authors, i.e. some kind of distribution channel, and organises things only where necessary (the question of policies). I don't want to build a second Cathedral that fixes the errors of the first. (So there will be place for an alternate stdlib if people want it, but it won't replace the official one.) Expect an announcement about a mailing list for the details of this discussion soon. Of course, we can already start on caml-list, it's you who decides. Gerd -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Gerd Stolpmann * Viktoriastr. 45 * 64293 Darmstadt * Germany gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id AAA30696; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:44:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA30017 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:44:30 +0100 (MET) From: Alain.Frisch@ens.fr Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2INiwKW024312 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:44:59 +0100 Received: from clipper.ens.fr (clipper-gw.ens.fr [129.199.1.22]) by nef.ens.fr (8.12.10/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id i2INiQ5v014094 ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:44:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (frisch@localhost) by clipper.ens.fr (8.12.3/jb-1.1) id i2INiOxu023977 ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:44:24 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: clipper.ens.fr: frisch owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:44:24 +0100 (MET) X-X-Sender: frisch@clipper.ens.fr Reply-To: Alain.Frisch@ens.fr To: Alex Baretta cc: Ocaml Subject: [Caml-list] Structuring the Caml community (Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar) In-Reply-To: <4059E2BD.6060902@baretta.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; alain:01 frisch:01 ocaml's:01 baretta:01 wiki:01 bounded:01 alain:01 ocaml:01 caml:01 caml:01 alex:01 structuring:02 precisely:02 wrote:03 cathedral:95 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 189 On Thu, 18 Mar 2004, Alex Baretta wrote: > Xavier, what you guys must do is not pontificate but define once and for > all the official role of the community in relation to Inria and to the > Caml team. Isn't it precisely what Xavier did in his last mail to the list ? In my opinion, the problem does not come from the Caml team, but from the Caml community. The community needs to be more structured, define its goals, organize discussions, and develop missing tools. Do we really need an intervention from Above to create a structure that would allow to foster collaborative work within the community ? There is a common interest, collaboration shouln't be impossible. It would be great to see one of the companies committed to OCaml setting up a "community web site", lauching specific mailing lists / forums to discuss technical issues (like "best practices" for packaging libraries) and less technical ones ("shall we better have a wiki or blogs to make the community visible ?"), and organizing a somewhat formal system to reach conclusions in a bounded amount of time (vote ?). Then publish the results, and call for participation if some resources are necessary to develop or set up something. This does not seem out of reach, we "just" need someone to take some responsibility and organize the process. Many people will be happy to help if some initial impulsion is given. -- Alain ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id BAA32326; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 01:03:08 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA31917 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 01:03:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from mwinf1002.wanadoo.fr (ipoutme5.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.21]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2J036Hd006203 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 01:03:06 +0100 Received: from vanicat.homelinux.org (ca-bordeaux-2-229.w80-8.abo.wanadoo.fr [80.8.74.229]) by mwinf1002.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id F3BC71C0034F for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 01:03:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from moi by vanicat.homelinux.org with local (Exim 4.30) id 1B47Td-0006mo-Lp for caml-list@inria.fr; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 01:03:05 +0100 To: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: [Caml-list] Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar References: <07FEC955-782B-11D8-850C-000A957FFA4A@csun.edu> <20040318001905.36025.qmail@web41206.mail.yahoo.com> <20040318085638.GA11753@swordfish> <20040318185723.GE27866@speakeasy.org> <20040318211615.GA6024@kefka.frap.net> <20040318223243.GA26776@gaia.cc.gatech.edu> From: Remi Vanicat Mail-Copy-To: never Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 01:03:04 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20040318223243.GA26776@gaia.cc.gatech.edu> (Fernando Alegre's message of "Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:32:43 -0500") Message-ID: <874qslvh3b.dlv@vanicat.homelinux.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 alegre:01 gatech:01 pervasives:01 -stdlib:01 -stdlib:01 camlp:01 regexps:01 camlp:01 compiler:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 writes:01 remi:01 remi:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 190 Fernando Alegre writes: [...] > > I also think a few more switches in the compiler would mostly put an end to > most complaints and give the community the necessary tools to extend/replace > the libraries. In particular, I feel this is needed: > > 1) A -pre_open switch that opens a given module (searched along the -I path) > This would allow people to replace Pervasives with a custom module. > > 2) -stdlib switches that change the path for the standard library so that > subsequent -I +path is searched under the current standard library path. > Several -stdlib switches should be allowed in the same compilation. > > 3) A firm commitment by the Ocaml team to maintain camlp4 in the future in > the same terms as the rest of the ocaml core. This would be essential > for extensions that depend on syntactic manipulation (such regexps) to > become widespread. I believed that the Ocaml team have already tell us that they will continue to maintain camlp4 inside OCaml several time. -- Rémi Vanicat ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id BAA01636; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 01:47:55 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA01233 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 01:47:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from kefka.frap.net (adsl-64-162-212-212.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.162.212.212]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2J0mMKW030502 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 01:48:23 +0100 Received: by kefka.frap.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6EA946A4C2E; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:47:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:47:42 -0800 From: Kenneth Knowles To: Gerd Stolpmann Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040319004742.GA8727@kefka.frap.net> References: <4059994E.2010802@socialtools.net> <20040318151234.B21768@pauillac.inria.fr> <1079653304.990.89.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1079653304.990.89.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; knowles:99 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 findlib:01 findlib:01 cpan:01 cpan:01 namespaces:01 dependencies:01 ocaml:01 hierarchy:02 match:02 modules:02 unix:02 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 191 > Of course, the Bazaar needs a bit more organisation, and as you know, I > wrote software supporting this: Findlib and GODI. Findlib is mature > software, even from a professional point of view, and many people are > already using it. GODI is already usable. So the technical solutions > exist (that means: THERE IS A CPAN FOR OCAML, although it uses a > different implementation for a different language, and does not match > C.*AN), and the remaining question is: Does the community accept it? CPAN is much more than an automatic-installation tool. The social organization of the perl namespaces is by far the most important aspect of CPAN. The module to automatically install dependencies etc is just a minor convenience next to the over-arching organizational structure. My comments with regards to namespacing and modules are focused on how to present a wide range of extended libraries in a hierarchy that seems "standard" to someone browsing the archives, to inspire confidence in the completeness and authoritativeness of the archive. GODI doesn't (and doesn't intend to, so that's fine) solve this issue, but clearly the auto-installer on top of such an organization is ready. Kenn ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id CAA02272; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 02:08:15 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA02456 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 02:08:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from swordfish.cs.caltech.edu (swordfish.cs.caltech.edu [131.215.44.124]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2J18gKW032343 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 02:08:43 +0100 Received: from orchestra.cs.caltech.edu (orchestra.cs.caltech.edu [131.215.44.20]) by swordfish.cs.caltech.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12C56DF2EF; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:08:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by orchestra.cs.caltech.edu (Postfix, from userid 2554) id 2C4EE9BBA2; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:08:10 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Vanier To: jfc@mit.edu Cc: caml-list@inria.fr In-reply-to: <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> (message from John Carr on Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:10:20 -0500) Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) References: <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> Message-Id: <20040319010810.2C4EE9BBA2@orchestra.cs.caltech.edu> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:08:10 -0800 (PST) X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; vanier:01 mvanier:01 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 jfc:01 bug:01 bug:01 analogy:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 caltech:01 complexity:02 unix:02 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 192 > Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:10:20 -0500 > From: John Carr > > > > > 1. Nobody else knows the language. > > > 2. It doesn't run on our platform. > > > 3. It will break and we can't get support. > > > > Point 1 => same problem as with Linux about ten years ago > > > > Point 2 => really not running on that platform? > > > > Point 3 => The INRIA-cathedral will help to prevent this problem > > in the sense of "we do not allow any hacker to make > > changes in the core language" > > Suppose we find a bug in ocaml that impacts our product. > Whose job is it to fix the bug? Neither "a network of > hackers" nor "some academic researchers in France, if they > have the time" is an acceptable answer. We pay a company > to provide us with an embedded Linux environment including > cross-compilation tools. While in reality ocaml will be > more reliable than g++ due to the vast difference in > complexity, that doesn't overcome the fear. > > Consider points 2 and 3 as axioms. They were dictated to > me by management and were not subject to debate. As long > as there is a shadow of a doubt about support, ocaml won't > be used where I work. > Sounds like there may be an opportunity for people who want to provide for-profit support for ocaml projects. I suspect that the idea of getting paid to work in ocaml would be highly appealing to most of the people on this list. An analogy would be to the early Linux distributions (e.g. Slackware). Mike ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id CAA03044; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 02:31:04 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA03425 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 02:31:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from kurims.kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp (kurims.kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp [130.54.16.1]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2J1V0Hd015637 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 02:31:02 +0100 Received: from localhost (suiren.kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp [130.54.16.25]) by kurims.kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp (8.9.3p2-20030924/3.7W) with ESMTP id KAA13709; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:30:54 +0900 (JST) To: rich@annexia.org Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) In-Reply-To: <20040318232039.GA1912@redhat.com> References: <20040318184118.GC702@first.in-berlin.de> <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> <20040318232039.GA1912@redhat.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.2 on Emacs 21.2 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:30:54 +0900 From: Jacques Garrigue X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 jacques:01 2004:99 bug:01 bug:01 open-source:01 qpl:01 recognized:99 open-source:01 gpl:01 ocaml's:01 lgpl:01 jacques:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 193 From: Richard Jones > On Thu, Mar 18, 2004 at 03:10:20PM -0500, John Carr wrote: > > Suppose we find a bug in ocaml that impacts our product. > > Whose job is it to fix the bug? Neither "a network of > > hackers" nor "some academic researchers in France, if they > > have the time" is an acceptable answer. Well, I understand this is hard to explain to companies. Yet I believe that we have a good record for correcting bugs. It is not because we are academic researchers that we don't take seriously our responsibilities. (Microsoft is certainly not faster, and does not offer more guarantees.) > This is really why the licensing of the compilers *does* matter. Possibly, but may I remind you that ocaml is open-source? The QPL is a recognized open-source license, even if it isn't GPL compatible (but almost all open-source licenses are not GPL-compatible). Anybody is perfectly free to release fixes and improvements for ocaml, including binary releases, as long as they provide a patch with respect to the corresponding version of ocaml. For me, it's not even clear that a public CVS based on ocaml would be a problem: CVS actually works by creating diffs. Could you explain by which mechanism a different license would help in making ocaml's maintenance more reliable for companies? Also note that all this is irrelevant to libraries, which are already released under a slightly relaxed version of the LGPL. Jacques Garrigue ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id GAA11542; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 06:05:53 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA11446 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 06:05:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.203]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2J56GKW019338 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 06:06:17 +0100 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp114-118.lns1.syd3.internode.on.net [150.101.114.118]) by smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i2J55aUK062584; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:35:41 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) From: skaller Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net To: Jacques Garrigue Cc: rich@annexia.org, caml-list In-Reply-To: <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> References: <20040318184118.GC702@first.in-berlin.de> <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> <20040318232039.GA1912@redhat.com> <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1079673020.12190.26.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 19 Mar 2004 16:10:20 +1100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 sourceforge:01 2004:99 jacques:01 2004:99 bug:01 bug:01 laughing:01 accountant:99 laughing:01 accountant:99 9660:01 glebe:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 194 On Fri, 2004-03-19 at 12:30, Jacques Garrigue wrote: > From: Richard Jones > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2004 at 03:10:20PM -0500, John Carr wrote: > > > Suppose we find a bug in ocaml that impacts our product. > > > Whose job is it to fix the bug? Neither "a network of > > > hackers" nor "some academic researchers in France, if they > > > have the time" is an acceptable answer. > > Well, I understand this is hard to explain to companies. > Yet I believe that we have a good record for correcting bugs. > It is not because we are academic researchers that we don't take > seriously our responsibilities. > (Microsoft is certainly not faster, and does not offer more guarantees.) Falls over laughing... no comparison! I found 3 bugs in Ocaml compiler. The first one took a while to convince the team there really was a bug .. several versions were unusable. But once convinced, the fix in one day. Two other bugs fixed in several hours. Experience with MS: a complex application using Borland C++ had to be converted to MS due to some moron accountant manager idiot. MSVC++ couldn't handle it due to both serious bugs and size limitations. Yes, the company was VERY BIG player with MS contract support and ISO quality assurance procedures (falls over laughing again) yes the MS representative was on site quickly enough to examine the problem. What did he do? Report the bug (which we already knew) to the MSVC++ compiler team in Redmond. That's it. Even the representative got no feedback from them, let alone a fix. AFAIK the problem was never fixed .. I didn't hang around long enough to find out the eventual outcome .. it seems doubtful the accountant got fired though :D -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id JAA21902; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:41:35 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA20838 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:41:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from mwinf0204.wanadoo.fr (smtp2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.29]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2J8fXHd028962 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:41:33 +0100 Received: from lambda (AStrasbourg-206-1-23-200.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.49.251.200]) by mwinf0204.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id D0729A000041; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:41:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by lambda with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4FZe-0005Ce-00; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:41:50 +0100 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:41:49 +0100 To: Jacques Garrigue Cc: rich@annexia.org, caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040319084149.GA14831@lambda> References: <20040318184118.GC702@first.in-berlin.de> <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> <20040318232039.GA1912@redhat.com> <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Sven Luther X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 sven:01 luther:01 sven:01 luther:01 2004:99 0900,:01 jacques:01 2004:99 bug:01 bug:01 open-source:01 qpl:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 196 On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 10:30:54AM +0900, Jacques Garrigue wrote: > From: Richard Jones > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2004 at 03:10:20PM -0500, John Carr wrote: > > > Suppose we find a bug in ocaml that impacts our product. > > > Whose job is it to fix the bug? Neither "a network of > > > hackers" nor "some academic researchers in France, if they > > > have the time" is an acceptable answer. > > Well, I understand this is hard to explain to companies. > Yet I believe that we have a good record for correcting bugs. > It is not because we are academic researchers that we don't take > seriously our responsibilities. > (Microsoft is certainly not faster, and does not offer more guarantees.) > > > This is really why the licensing of the compilers *does* matter. > > Possibly, but may I remind you that ocaml is open-source? > The QPL is a recognized open-source license, even if it isn't GPL > compatible (but almost all open-source licenses are not > GPL-compatible). > Anybody is perfectly free to release fixes and improvements for ocaml, > including binary releases, as long as they provide a patch with > respect to the corresponding version of ocaml. > > For me, it's not even clear that a public CVS based on ocaml would be > a problem: CVS actually works by creating diffs. > > Could you explain by which mechanism a different license would help in > making ocaml's maintenance more reliable for companies? > > Also note that all this is irrelevant to libraries, which are already > released under a slightly relaxed version of the LGPL. Just as a small note, as the debian ocaml maintainer, i have to say that the QPL+LGPL used by the ocaml distribution is no problem, we discussed long with debian-legal and even RMS to achieve the current situation, which is quite ok. Also, i have to say that the ocaml team is quite fast to solve licencing issues that arise, like the bignum problem we encountered last year, or the emacs files which are QPLed, and they agreed to change to the LGPL or a dual GPL+QPL licence (didn't check yet if this realy happened though). Now, the last domain where the licence remains non-free is naturally the ocaml documentation, where even to transfer info from the manual to a man page is not easily possible. It would be really nice if a free licence be chosen for the ocaml documentation, altough it seems that this is not the intention of the ocaml team. This will be problematic in case the debian projects vote to remove the non-free section which currently hosts the ocaml-docs (and the Oreilly ocaml-books too). We will know the answer to this by monday, but even if the vote doesn't pass, which it most probably will not, freeing the ocaml documentation will be a good thing, and i think there are enough means to ensure that proper aknowledgement are given back, by using for example the FDGL (err, or whatever the FSF documentation licence is named) with invariant sections covering only the copyright attribution info. Also, i do believe that the gains of doing this outweigh the fear of someone making silently use of said documentation. Friendly, Sven Luther ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id JAA21094; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:48:12 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA18001 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:48:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from mwinf0402.wanadoo.fr (smtp4.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.27]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2J8mdKW006722 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:48:39 +0100 Received: from lambda (AStrasbourg-206-1-23-200.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.49.251.200]) by mwinf0402.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 9B6538000C9; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:48:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by lambda with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4Fg3-0005E4-00; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:48:27 +0100 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:48:26 +0100 To: Oliver Bandel Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040319084826.GB14831@lambda> References: <00cd01c40cdb$71c34410$4500a8c0@warp> <200403181312.i2IDCaDI010697@nerd-xing.mit.edu> <20040318135650.GB23915@redhat.com> <20040318184118.GC702@first.in-berlin.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040318184118.GC702@first.in-berlin.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Sven Luther X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 sven:01 luther:01 sven:01 luther:01 2004:99 oliver:01 bandel:01 2004:99 shelves:99 specialists:99 shower:99 bugfix:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 197 On Thu, Mar 18, 2004 at 07:41:18PM +0100, Oliver Bandel wrote: > On Thu, Mar 18, 2004 at 01:56:50PM +0000, Richard Jones wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2004 at 08:12:36AM -0500, John Carr wrote: > > > 1. Nobody else knows the language. > > > 2. It doesn't run on our platform. > > > 3. It will break and we can't get support. > > > > These things will always be a problem until OCaml becomes (to use a > > marketing term) a "whole product". This means that it has a full > > suite of supporting skills and documentation. There are currently two > > books, and a few web tutorials. For OCaml to become a whole product > > we'd need to see a few shelves full of books at the local bookstore, > > and specialists in each city offering support, and major external > > companies signing on. > > Point 1 => same problem as with Linux about ten years ago > > Point 2 => really not running on that platform? > > Point 3 => The INRIA-cathedral will help to prevent this problem > in the sense of "we do not allow any hacker to make > changes in the core language" Again, as the debian maintainer of the ocaml package, i have to agree here. I package mostly the pure ocaml distribution, with a serie of patches, applied as needed, but always either picked up from CVS or discussed with upstream. The time i choose to apply a random patch, like the early ocaml -i support one, i had the bad surprise of breaking .cmi generation compatibiliy between the native and byte code compilers, which was a cold water shower for me (err, bad french translation, i suppose you don't say that in english). Anyway, since then i refrained from applying random external patches. Now, what would really make my day would be for the ocaml team to decide to go the professional way, and to maintain both a development CVS branch, and a stable bugfix CVS branch, which would avoid having to get some random brokeness when one want to get serious bug fixes. Sorry Xavier, i know i told you that many times already, and you told me that your devel model was yours to choose, but i couldn't resist a gentle proding :). I also don't believe this will be so much of a cost over the current model, and maybe even be less expensive in the long run. Friendly, Sven Luther ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id JAA21576; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:51:41 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA21662 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:51:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from mwinf0202.wanadoo.fr (smtp2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.29]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2J8q8KW007205 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:52:08 +0100 Received: from lambda (AStrasbourg-206-1-23-200.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.49.251.200]) by mwinf0202.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id BC77AA400105; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:51:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by lambda with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4FjQ-0005Ex-00; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:51:56 +0100 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:51:56 +0100 To: John Carr Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040319085156.GC14831@lambda> References: <20040318184118.GC702@first.in-berlin.de> <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Sven Luther X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 sven:01 luther:01 sven:01 luther:01 2004:99 bug:01 bug:01 licencing:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 consortium:01 complexity:02 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 198 On Thu, Mar 18, 2004 at 03:10:20PM -0500, John Carr wrote: > > > > 1. Nobody else knows the language. > > > 2. It doesn't run on our platform. > > > 3. It will break and we can't get support. > > > > Point 1 => same problem as with Linux about ten years ago > > > > Point 2 => really not running on that platform? > > > > Point 3 => The INRIA-cathedral will help to prevent this problem > > in the sense of "we do not allow any hacker to make > > changes in the core language" > > Suppose we find a bug in ocaml that impacts our product. > Whose job is it to fix the bug? Neither "a network of > hackers" nor "some academic researchers in France, if they > have the time" is an acceptable answer. We pay a company > to provide us with an embedded Linux environment including > cross-compilation tools. While in reality ocaml will be > more reliable than g++ due to the vast difference in > complexity, that doesn't overcome the fear. Well, nothing is stopping you from paying a programmer to fix the bug, and have it integrated in the upstream release. In fact, i do believe the Ocaml Consortium was set up for just that, and have access to the ocaml code under other licencing i think. So, contribute to it, help paying programmer to fix bugs and furthermore develop the part of ocaml you feel are important, in other word, put your money were your mouth is. > The library system is troublesome -- non-core libraries need > other libraries, which need other libraries, and so on -- but > in this case it didn't make a difference. Well, i never noticed such troubles in debian :)) But then, it is your fault if you did chose an inferior OS :)) Friendly, Sven Luther ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id JAA22659; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:54:37 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA21715 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:54:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from mwinf0601.wanadoo.fr (smtp6.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.25]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2J8t4KW007624 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:55:04 +0100 Received: from lambda (AStrasbourg-206-1-23-200.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.49.251.200]) by mwinf0601.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id B198734001C1; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:54:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by lambda with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4FmG-0005FZ-00; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:54:52 +0100 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:54:52 +0100 To: Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons Cc: Nicolas Cannasse , caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040319085452.GD14831@lambda> References: <00cd01c40cdb$71c34410$4500a8c0@warp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Sven Luther X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 sven:01 luther:01 sven:01 luther:01 2004:99 pons:01 librairies:01 facto:01 extlib:01 extlib:01 baire:01 fernandez:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 199 On Thu, Mar 18, 2004 at 12:55:43PM +0100, Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons wrote: > Bonjour, > > > - try to build librairies with the hope that they'll one time become > > standard (de facto, or integrated into official release) : that's > > what we're doing with ExtLib (http://ocaml-lib.sf.net) > > Autant je suis tout a fait favorable aux initiatives qui comme ExtLib > (les deux versions), Baire, MLlib ou OCamlGraph (pour ne citer que MLlib qui n'est pas libre cependant, et lorsque j'ai voulu en faire un package debian, tout allait bien jusqu'au moment ou j'ai demande si une modification de la licence etait possible, depuis, aucun de mes mails n'a eu de reponse. Amicalement, Sven Luther ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id JAA21746; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:54:54 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA22247 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:54:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from aomori.annexia.org (annexia.force9.co.uk [212.56.101.183]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2J8sqHd030815 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:54:52 +0100 Received: from rich by aomori.annexia.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4FmF-0002Y8-00 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 08:54:51 +0000 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 08:54:51 +0000 Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040319085451.GA9616@redhat.com> References: <4059994E.2010802@socialtools.net> <20040318151234.B21768@pauillac.inria.fr> <1079653304.990.89.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> <20040319004742.GA8727@kefka.frap.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040319004742.GA8727@kefka.frap.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Richard Jones X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 knowles:99 findlib:01 findlib:01 cpan:01 cpan:01 namespaces:01 dependencies:01 ltd:98 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 hierarchy:02 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 200 On Thu, Mar 18, 2004 at 04:47:42PM -0800, Kenneth Knowles wrote: > > > Of course, the Bazaar needs a bit more organisation, and as you know, I > > wrote software supporting this: Findlib and GODI. Findlib is mature > > software, even from a professional point of view, and many people are > > already using it. GODI is already usable. So the technical solutions > > exist (that means: THERE IS A CPAN FOR OCAML, although it uses a > > different implementation for a different language, and does not match > > C.*AN), and the remaining question is: Does the community accept it? > > CPAN is much more than an automatic-installation tool. The social organization > of the perl namespaces is by far the most important aspect of CPAN. The module > to automatically install dependencies etc is just a minor convenience next to > the over-arching organizational structure. My comments with regards to > namespacing and modules are focused on how to present a wide range of extended > libraries in a hierarchy that seems "standard" to someone browsing the archives, > to inspire confidence in the completeness and authoritativeness of the archive. > GODI doesn't (and doesn't intend to, so that's fine) solve this issue, but > clearly the auto-installer on top of such an organization is ready. Indeed. Being a diehard Debian user myself I always install CPAN modules and OCaml modules from Debian directly. This solves any dependency problems, and integrates with the operating system, and automatically upgrades modules when new versions are available. Rich. -- Richard Jones. http://www.annexia.org/ http://www.j-london.com/ Merjis Ltd. http://www.merjis.com/ - improving website return on investment http://www.YouUnlimited.co.uk/ - management courses ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id JAA22028; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:55:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA22647 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:55:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from shiva.jussieu.fr (shiva.jussieu.fr [134.157.0.129]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2J8uIKW007854 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:56:18 +0100 Received: from ibm3.cicrp.jussieu.fr (ibm3.cicrp.jussieu.fr [134.157.15.3]) by shiva.jussieu.fr (8.12.10/jtpda-5.4) with ESMTP id i2J8tmSF044749 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:55:48 +0100 (CET) X-Ids: 164 Received: from ibm1.cicrp.jussieu.fr (ibm1.cicrp.jussieu.fr [134.157.15.1]) by ibm3.cicrp.jussieu.fr (8.8.8/jtpda/mob-V8) with ESMTP id JAA115102 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:54:22 +0100 Received: from localhost (fernande@localhost) by ibm1.cicrp.jussieu.fr (8.8.8/jtpda/mob-v8) with ESMTP id JAA1290346 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:50:39 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: ibm1.cicrp.jussieu.fr: fernande owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:50:38 +0100 (NFT) From: Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons X-X-Sender: fernande@ibm1 To: caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Subject: [Caml-list] Demande clarification nomenclature ocaml* In-Reply-To: <20040318185723.GE27866@speakeasy.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Miltered: at shiva.jussieu.fr with ID 405AB594.002 by Joe's j-chkmail (http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr)! X-Antivirus: scanned by sophie at shiva.jussieu.fr X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; pons:01 pons:01 etu:99 extlib:01 claire:99 camlimages:01 extlib:01 baire:01 fernandez:01 fernandez:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 caml:01 olivier:02 olivier:02 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 201 Bonjour, > There are two extlibs because two different people decided to > release libraries filling in gaps in the standard library, using the > obvious name, without knowing about the existance of another such > effort. When the other extlib was announced quite a while ago, I > talked with its author, and that the time neither one of us were > willing to change names. Since then, the other one (That most people > have mentioned here) doesn't seem to be being actively maintained > the way mine is; as of a couple of days ago, when I checked, there > hadn't been any commits to its CVS tree in months. That makes me, at > least, even less likely to change my extlib's name than I was 6 > months ago. La communaute ne semble meme pas capable de se mettre d'accord sur la nomenclature de ses bibliotheques. Verra-t-on ensuite une querelle pour savoir qui detient le veritable "ocamlmakefile", "ocamlxml" ou encore "ocamlyacc" ? Il me semble raisonnable que l'utilisateur ait une vision claire de ce qui est officiellement developpe par l'INRIA et de ce qui ne l'est pas. Raison pour laquelle il me semble que l'INRIA devrait etre plus vigilant au sujet de la nomenclature, par exemple en affirmant sa primaute sur le suffixe ocaml* en demandant aux autres bibliotheques de migrer vers caml* telle CamlImages, ou encore en demandant aux contributeurs d'eviter des noms equivoques tels ExtLib. Je me trouve apres coup bien aimable de n'avoir pas nomme Baire plutot OCamlStdLib : c'est bien plus vendeur. Diego Olivier ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id JAA22527; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:58:21 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA22481 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:58:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from aomori.annexia.org (annexia.force9.co.uk [212.56.101.183]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2J8wnKW008264 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:58:49 +0100 Received: from rich by aomori.annexia.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4Fpb-0002Yk-00 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 08:58:19 +0000 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 08:58:19 +0000 Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040319085819.GB9616@redhat.com> References: <20040318184118.GC702@first.in-berlin.de> <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> <20040318232039.GA1912@redhat.com> <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Richard Jones X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 0900,:01 jacques:01 open-source:01 qpl:01 recognized:99 open-source:01 gpl:01 gpl:01 patching:01 ltd:98 compiler:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 202 On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 10:30:54AM +0900, Jacques Garrigue wrote: > > This is really why the licensing of the compilers *does* matter. > > Possibly, but may I remind you that ocaml is open-source? > The QPL is a recognized open-source license, even if it isn't GPL > compatible (but almost all open-source licenses are not > GPL-compatible). > Anybody is perfectly free to release fixes and improvements for ocaml, > including binary releases, as long as they provide a patch with > respect to the corresponding version of ocaml. Well, that's sort of free software plus extra problems. I have to go and make a patch against the original and release the patch. If it's OK to release the original + patch, why not just make the compiler GPL, then I and the end users don't have to go through all the extra patching hassle? I'm not convinced either that a CVS repository would be within the license terms. INRIA may not mind, but that's a different issue. Rich. -- Richard Jones. http://www.annexia.org/ http://www.j-london.com/ Merjis Ltd. http://www.merjis.com/ - improving website return on investment Learning Objective CAML for C, C++, Perl and Java programmers: http://www.merjis.com/richj/computers/ocaml/tutorial/ ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id KAA22776; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:12:15 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA24296 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:12:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from mwinf0201.wanadoo.fr (smtp2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.29]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2J9CgKW009954 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:12:43 +0100 Received: from lambda (AStrasbourg-206-1-23-200.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.49.251.200]) by mwinf0201.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id C7E4E3000387; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:12:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by lambda with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4G3K-0005Ly-00; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:12:30 +0100 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:12:30 +0100 To: Sven Luther Cc: Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons , Nicolas Cannasse , caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040319091229.GA20532@lambda> References: <00cd01c40cdb$71c34410$4500a8c0@warp> <20040319085452.GD14831@lambda> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040319085452.GD14831@lambda> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Sven Luther X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 sven:01 luther:01 sven:01 luther:01 2004:99 2004:99 pons:01 librairies:01 facto:01 extlib:01 extlib:01 baire:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 203 On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 09:54:52AM +0100, Sven Luther wrote: > On Thu, Mar 18, 2004 at 12:55:43PM +0100, Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons wrote: > > Bonjour, > > > > > - try to build librairies with the hope that they'll one time become > > > standard (de facto, or integrated into official release) : that's > > > what we're doing with ExtLib (http://ocaml-lib.sf.net) > > > > Autant je suis tout a fait favorable aux initiatives qui comme ExtLib > > (les deux versions), Baire, MLlib ou OCamlGraph (pour ne citer que > > MLlib qui n'est pas libre cependant, et lorsque j'ai voulu en faire un > package debian, tout allait bien jusqu'au moment ou j'ai demande si une > modification de la licence etait possible, depuis, aucun de mes mails > n'a eu de reponse. Mille excuse, j'ai evidement confondu MLlib et MLgraph. J'ai jamais eu de problemes avec MLlib (jamais utilise non plus, donc ...). Amicalement, Sven Luther ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id KAA24680; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:13:19 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA24374 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:13:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from mwinf1002.wanadoo.fr (ipoutme5.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.21]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2J9DHHd001240 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:13:17 +0100 Received: from lambda (AStrasbourg-206-1-23-200.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.49.251.200]) by mwinf1002.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id E11341C00052; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:13:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by lambda with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4G4M-0005M9-00; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:13:34 +0100 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:13:34 +0100 To: Richard Jones Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040319091334.GB20532@lambda> References: <20040318184118.GC702@first.in-berlin.de> <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> <20040318232039.GA1912@redhat.com> <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> <20040319085819.GB9616@redhat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040319085819.GB9616@redhat.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Sven Luther X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 sven:01 luther:01 sven:01 luther:01 2004:99 2004:99 0900,:01 jacques:01 open-source:01 qpl:01 recognized:99 open-source:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 204 On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 08:58:19AM +0000, Richard Jones wrote: > On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 10:30:54AM +0900, Jacques Garrigue wrote: > > > This is really why the licensing of the compilers *does* matter. > > > > Possibly, but may I remind you that ocaml is open-source? > > The QPL is a recognized open-source license, even if it isn't GPL > > compatible (but almost all open-source licenses are not > > GPL-compatible). > > Anybody is perfectly free to release fixes and improvements for ocaml, > > including binary releases, as long as they provide a patch with > > respect to the corresponding version of ocaml. > > Well, that's sort of free software plus extra problems. I have to go > and make a patch against the original and release the patch. > > If it's OK to release the original + patch, why not just make the > compiler GPL, then I and the end users don't have to go through all > the extra patching hassle? Because the QPL allows for modification to be reused by the ocaml team in other licences, while the GPL doesn't allow for this. Friendly, Sven Luther ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id KAA25288; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:21:44 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA24867 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:21:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from hirsch.in-berlin.de (hirsch.in-berlin.de [192.109.42.6]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2J9LfHd002552 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:21:42 +0100 X-Envelope-From: oliver@first.in-berlin.de X-Envelope-To: Received: from hirsch.in-berlin.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hirsch.in-berlin.de (8.12.11/8.12.11/Debian-3) with ESMTP id i2J9K2UY021388 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:21:37 +0100 Received: from first.UUCP (uucp@localhost) by hirsch.in-berlin.de (8.12.11/8.12.11/Debian-3) with UUCP id i2J98Z0s019788 for inria.fr!caml-list; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:08:36 +0100 Received: by first.in-berlin.de via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.114) Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:36:31 +0100 (CET) From: oliver@first.in-berlin.de (Oliver Bandel) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:36:31 +0100 To: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Structuring the Caml community (Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar) Message-ID: <20040319083631.GA951@first.in-berlin.de> References: <4059E2BD.6060902@baretta.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; oliver:01 in-berlin:01 oliver:01 bandel:01 caml-list:01 ocaml's:01 2004:99 alain:01 frisch:01 baretta:01 hashtbl:01 hashtbl:01 developpers:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 205 On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 12:44:24AM +0100, Alain.Frisch@ens.fr wrote: > On Thu, 18 Mar 2004, Alex Baretta wrote: > > > Xavier, what you guys must do is not pontificate but define once and for > > all the official role of the community in relation to Inria and to the > > Caml team. > > Isn't it precisely what Xavier did in his last mail to the list ? > > In my opinion, the problem does not come from the Caml team, but from the > Caml community. The community needs to be more structured, define its > goals, organize discussions, and develop missing tools. Do we really need > an intervention from Above to create a structure that would allow to > foster collaborative work within the community ? There is a common > interest, collaboration shouln't be impossible. Yes, that's the point. "The community" is discussing since years that their software should be part of the OCaml distri but is not orgenized enough to set up such a website. Not able to do that, but interested in hacking in the core of OCaml?! Please, don't let such people hacking around in the core...! So, first results in what we need (another unix-lib, maybe an additional Unix2-lib, which can be added to Unix-lib and the other stuff we need...). BTW.: Such additions like Hashtbl.fold are much more qualified for going into the Caml-Lib than (the relatively easy to achieve) calls to some Unix-API-calls. And this Hashtbl.fold was added some vesions ago... ... so it was better to add this than wasting time in adding Unix-API-stuff. This can be done by external additional unix2-lib developpers. Ciao, Oliver ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id KAA30159; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:49:47 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA26232 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:49:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from btr0x1.rz.uni-bayreuth.de (btr0x1.rz.uni-bayreuth.de [132.180.8.29]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2J9niHd006363 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:49:45 +0100 Received: from btn1x1.inf.uni-bayreuth.de (btn1x1.inf.uni-bayreuth.de [132.180.192.6]) by btr0x1.rz.uni-bayreuth.de (8.12.10/8.12.1) with ESMTP id i2J9nRq7023727; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:49:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from btn1x5.inf.uni-bayreuth.de (btn1x5.inf.uni-bayreuth.de [132.180.192.16]) by btn1x1.inf.uni-bayreuth.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id i2J9nU73029713; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:49:30 +0100 From: Wolfgang =?iso-8859-1?q?M=FCller?= To: Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons , caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Suggestion (was: Demande clarification nomenclature ocaml*) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:49:27 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403191049.27133.wolfgang.mueller2@uni-bayreuth.de> X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; mueller:99 caml-list:01 claire:99 camlimages:01 extlib:01 baire:01 unlucky:01 namespaces:01 bottleneck:01 namespaces:01 shorter:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 caml:01 afaik:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 206 [2nd try. The first went to DOFP only] > La communaute ne semble meme pas capable de se mettre d'accord sur la > nomenclature de ses bibliotheques. Verra-t-on ensuite une querelle > pour savoir qui detient le veritable "ocamlmakefile", "ocamlxml" ou > encore "ocamlyacc" ? > > Il me semble raisonnable que l'utilisateur ait une vision claire de ce > qui est officiellement developpe par l'INRIA et de ce qui ne l'est > pas. > > Raison pour laquelle il me semble que l'INRIA devrait etre plus > vigilant au sujet de la nomenclature, par exemple en affirmant sa > primaute sur le suffixe ocaml* en demandant aux autres bibliotheques > de migrer vers caml* telle CamlImages, ou encore en demandant aux > contributeurs d'eviter des noms equivoques tels ExtLib. > > Je me trouve apres coup bien aimable de n'avoir pas nomme Baire plutot > OCamlStdLib : c'est bien plus vendeur. > > Diego Olivier En fait, tout le monde parle Francais ici? To get back to the perl example: This is a point where a *central* repository for libraries with good search feature is important. For example: I once had a neat way of writing (creating, parsing) simplified DOM trees in Perl, and when I wanted to publish it, I found out that there actually was a module doing practically the same thing. So, unless you're unlucky and two people develop at home during 2 years one library and then submit it within one week, there is not much probability of unintentionally duplicated work within Perl. However, for toplevel namespaces, you have to write to a mailing list, and there is a group of people who decide if to accept the new toplevel namespace or not. This is a (AFAIK also known) bottleneck.. My suggestion: ___ While waiting for nested namespaces one could do namespace-by-convention. One would keep INRIA (or possibly something convenient and shorter) as prefix for INRIA OCaml stuff, leaving other useful prefixes for the normal people. This namespace could then be maintained in a perlish style. Reading this list from time to time it is quite clear that there is a number of people who mail a lot to this list, who know a lot about OCaml (as far as I can judge this as someone who knows little about OCaml), and who would be suitable for being maintainers of the toplevel namespace. Sounds good? Cheers, Wolfgang ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id LAA30319; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:03:17 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA02164 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:03:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from alex.baretta.com ([213.255.109.130]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JA3FHd008526 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:03:16 +0100 Received: from baretta.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by alex.baretta.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i2JA3cgh003290 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:03:39 +0100 Message-ID: <405AC57A.1090300@baretta.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:03:38 +0100 From: Alex Baretta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) References: <20040318184118.GC702@first.in-berlin.de> <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> <20040318232039.GA1912@redhat.com> <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> <20040319085819.GB9616@redhat.com> <20040319091334.GB20532@lambda> In-Reply-To: <20040319091334.GB20532@lambda> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; baretta:01 baretta:01 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 sven:01 luther:01 qpl:01 gpl:01 sven:01 luther:01 patched:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 alex:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 207 Sven Luther wrote: > Because the QPL allows for modification to be reused by the ocaml team > in other licences, while the GPL doesn't allow for this. > > Friendly, > > Sven Luther In my opinion it would be sensibile for INRIA to allow redistribution of patched sources, so long as the author of the modifications allows INRIA to include such modifications in its distributions under whichever license INRIA chooses to use. I would be more willing to contribute work on a GODI style ocaml distribution if it were easily possible to walk through core Ocaml code and modify if and when this may be needed. Alex ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id LAA28040; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:19:21 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA31511 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:19:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from mwinf0301.wanadoo.fr (smtp3.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.28]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JAJnKW017880 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:19:49 +0100 Received: from lambda (AStrasbourg-206-1-23-200.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.49.251.200]) by mwinf0301.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 7BBEB400884; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:19:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by lambda with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4H6H-0005cJ-00; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:19:37 +0100 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:19:36 +0100 To: james woodyatt Cc: Vasili Galchin , caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library Message-ID: <20040319101936.GB21455@lambda> References: <20040309173009.27908.qmail@web41215.mail.yahoo.com> <7DBE572A-71F3-11D8-BDB0-000393B8133A@wetware.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <7DBE572A-71F3-11D8-BDB0-000393B8133A@wetware.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Sven Luther X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 run-time:01 sven:01 luther:01 sven:01 luther:01 2004:99 woodyatt:01 otherlibs:01 mli:01 posix:01 api:01 mli:01 lacking:01 bug:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 208 On Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 09:59:20AM -0800, james woodyatt wrote: > On 09 Mar 2004, at 09:30, Vasili Galchin wrote: > >  > >      I have yet to finish reading through otherlibs/unix/unix.mli. I > >kind of consider this POSIX API support. In any case, is there is a > >consensus that what is in unix.mli is complete? Or does new > >functionality have to be added? If so, what? > > I think the Unix module could be regarded as incomplete. > > The tactic I have taken with this problem is to regard the Unix library > in the Ocaml distribution as the property of INRIA. It has what it > has, and it will get what INRIA decides is missing when the INRIA team > decides to put it there. > > I found the support for socket options to be lacking. I wanted IPv6 I also have a bug report open against the debian ocaml package asking quite intently for IPv6 supoprt, also claiming ocaml to be 'useless' to him until it would support IPv6. Is there any IPv6 support planed in the near future ? I know this discussion did already happen, but i guess nothing came of it back then. Friendly, Sven Luther ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id LAA31695; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:19:34 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA31350 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:19:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from aomori.annexia.org (annexia.force9.co.uk [212.56.101.183]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JAJWHd010662 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:19:32 +0100 Received: from rich by aomori.annexia.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4H6B-0002tk-00 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:19:31 +0000 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:19:31 +0000 To: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: [Caml-list] Modules and namespaces Message-ID: <20040319101931.GA10938@redhat.com> References: <200403191049.27133.wolfgang.mueller2@uni-bayreuth.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <200403191049.27133.wolfgang.mueller2@uni-bayreuth.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Richard Jones X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; namespaces:01 2004:99 namespaces:01 bottleneck:01 uploading:01 cpan:01 subdir:01 dbi:99 dbi:99 subdirectory:01 type-safe:01 ltd:98 ocaml:01 caml:01 caml:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 209 On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 10:49:27AM +0100, Wolfgang Müller wrote: > To get back to the perl example: [perl example] > However, for toplevel namespaces, you have to write to a mailing > list, and there is a group of people who decide if to accept the new > toplevel namespace or not. This is a (AFAIK also known) bottleneck.. Actually, getting a toplevel namespace accepted is not necessary with Perl. It's advisable, a nice thing to do, etc., but not necessary for uploading a module to CPAN. Another thing which is being overlooked here is that ocaml has two types of namespace: (1) The normal module namespace (2) Which paths get searched using -I +subdir For instance, I have a module called Dbi which is located in the -I +dbi subdirectory. It would be quite possible for someone else to write a Dbi module located in the -I +anotherdbi directory. No conflict would arise unless some strange person wanted to use both types of Dbi module in their program - an unlikely occurrence presumably. As for complex module namespaces: Perl gets away with a very loose definition. All modules which count are at either the top level or the second level, eg: CGI Net::FTP IO::Handle Java, by contrast, has a horrible ham-fisted namespace mechanism which is great example of overengineering a problem to death. Stick with short 1- or 2-level names for modules, please. Rich. -- Richard Jones. http://www.annexia.org/ http://www.j-london.com/ Merjis Ltd. http://www.merjis.com/ - improving website return on investment Perl4Caml lets you use any Perl library in your type-safe Objective CAML programs. http://www.merjis.com/developers/perl4caml/ ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id LAA31464; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:17:26 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA30632 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:17:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from mwinf1002.wanadoo.fr (ipoutme5.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.21]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JAHOHd010350 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:17:24 +0100 Received: from lambda (AStrasbourg-206-1-23-200.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.49.251.200]) by mwinf1002.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 364561C000F0; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:17:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by lambda with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4H4P-0005ba-00; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:17:41 +0100 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:17:41 +0100 To: Alex Baretta Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040319101741.GA21455@lambda> References: <20040318184118.GC702@first.in-berlin.de> <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> <20040318232039.GA1912@redhat.com> <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> <20040319085819.GB9616@redhat.com> <20040319091334.GB20532@lambda> <405AC57A.1090300@baretta.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <405AC57A.1090300@baretta.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Sven Luther X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 sven:01 luther:01 sven:01 luther:01 2004:99 baretta:01 qpl:01 gpl:01 patched:01 patched:01 pristine:01 qpl:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 210 On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 11:03:38AM +0100, Alex Baretta wrote: > Sven Luther wrote: > > >Because the QPL allows for modification to be reused by the ocaml team > >in other licences, while the GPL doesn't allow for this. > > > >Friendly, > > > >Sven Luther > > In my opinion it would be sensibile for INRIA to allow redistribution of > patched sources, so long as the author of the modifications allows INRIA > to include such modifications in its distributions under whichever > license INRIA chooses to use. Alex, ... I am not entirely sure, but since i distribute the patched ocaml in debian, and there has been no problem with that, i think there is some horrible confusion going on here. The named 'inria copyright' used for caml-light and earlier versions of ocaml did indeed restrict redistribution in other form than pristine source and patches. But this has been solved since many years now, and in particular the introduction of the QPL was part of that change. This is the main reason for debian not distributing caml-light, which still use the old problematic licence, as do caml-light derivative like moscow-ML, but this doesn't apply to Ocaml. Naturally, if you were meaning something else, please explain. > I would be more willing to contribute work on a GODI style ocaml > distribution if it were easily possible to walk through core Ocaml code > and modify if and when this may be needed. Noting is stopping you from doing that, Please read the QPL and LGPL before making such uninformed claims. Friendly, Sven Luther ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id LAA01238; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:42:44 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA00469 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:42:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from btr0x1.rz.uni-bayreuth.de (btr0x1.rz.uni-bayreuth.de [132.180.8.29]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JAhAKW020664 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:43:12 +0100 Received: from btn1x1.inf.uni-bayreuth.de (btn1x1.inf.uni-bayreuth.de [132.180.192.6]) by btr0x1.rz.uni-bayreuth.de (8.12.10/8.12.1) with ESMTP id i2JAg5q7001803; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:42:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from btn1x5.inf.uni-bayreuth.de (btn1x5.inf.uni-bayreuth.de [132.180.192.16]) by btn1x1.inf.uni-bayreuth.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id i2JAg973030124; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:42:09 +0100 From: Wolfgang =?iso-8859-1?q?M=FCller?= To: Richard Jones Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Modules and namespaces Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:42:05 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <200403191049.27133.wolfgang.mueller2@uni-bayreuth.de> <20040319101931.GA10938@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <20040319101931.GA10938@redhat.com> Cc: caml-list@inria.fr MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403191142.06003.wolfgang.mueller2@uni-bayreuth.de> X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; mueller:99 caml-list:01 namespaces:01 2004:99 dbi:99 dbi:99 unlikely:02 modules:02 wolfgang:02 wolfgang:02 module:03 module:03 wrote:03 types:03 presumably:95 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 213 On Friday 19 March 2004 11:19, Richard Jones wrote: > It would be quite possible for someone else to write a Dbi module > located in the -I +anotherdbi directory. =A0No conflict would arise > unless some strange person wanted to use both types of Dbi module > in their program - an unlikely occurrence presumably. Oh, I do not agree. Problems like that are a *very* neat tripwire for peopl= e=20 starting to use a language. Cheers, Wolfgang ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id LAA00300; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:44:58 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA01191 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:44:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from mwinf0203.wanadoo.fr (smtp2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.29]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JAjQKW020991 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:45:26 +0100 Received: from lambda (AStrasbourg-206-1-23-200.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.49.251.200]) by mwinf0203.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 8D1B5100022B; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:44:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by lambda with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4HV4-0005jE-00; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:45:14 +0100 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:45:14 +0100 To: Richard Jones Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Modules and namespaces Message-ID: <20040319104514.GA21926@lambda> References: <200403191049.27133.wolfgang.mueller2@uni-bayreuth.de> <20040319101931.GA10938@redhat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20040319101931.GA10938@redhat.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Sven Luther X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 namespaces:01 sven:01 luther:01 sven:01 luther:01 2004:99 2004:99 namespaces:01 bottleneck:01 uploading:01 cpan:01 subdir:01 dbi:99 dbi:99 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 214 On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 10:19:31AM +0000, Richard Jones wrote: > On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 10:49:27AM +0100, Wolfgang Müller wrote: > > To get back to the perl example: > [perl example] > > However, for toplevel namespaces, you have to write to a mailing > > list, and there is a group of people who decide if to accept the new > > toplevel namespace or not. This is a (AFAIK also known) bottleneck.. > > Actually, getting a toplevel namespace accepted is not necessary with > Perl. It's advisable, a nice thing to do, etc., but not necessary for > uploading a module to CPAN. > > Another thing which is being overlooked here is that ocaml has two > types of namespace: > > (1) The normal module namespace > > (2) Which paths get searched using -I +subdir > > For instance, I have a module called Dbi which is located in the > -I +dbi subdirectory. > > It would be quite possible for someone else to write a Dbi module > located in the -I +anotherdbi directory. No conflict would arise > unless some strange person wanted to use both types of Dbi module > in their program - an unlikely occurrence presumably. You can achieve this by using the -pack option when creating libraries. Sure it has still some problems, but it is the way to go to solve this problem. What is really missing is support for more than one OCAMLLIBDIR, in order to be able to easily separate the libraries installed by your package manager (/usr/lib/ocaml/3.07 for debian), by the one installed locally by the sysadmin (/usr/local/lib/ocaml/3.07 for debian), and the user specific ones (less important though, but still usefull). Friendly, Sven Luther ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id LAA01983; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:57:37 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA00940 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:57:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from abel.swapping.umh.ac.be (nat2.umh.ac.be [193.190.193.2]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JAvYHd016101 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:57:35 +0100 Received: from abel.swapping.umh.ac.be ([127.0.0.1] helo=localhost ident=trch) by abel.swapping.umh.ac.be with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4Hhd-0007UL-00; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:58:13 +0100 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:58:12 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <20040319.115812.114355331.debian00@tiscali.be> To: "O'Caml Mailing List" Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Structuring the Caml community From: Christophe TROESTLER In-Reply-To: <20040319083631.GA951@first.in-berlin.de> <20040318103140.GA20448@redhat.com> <40599C38.3050903@baretta.com> <20040318183325.GD1233@fichte.ai.univie.ac.at> References: <4059E2BD.6060902@baretta.com> <20040319083631.GA951@first.in-berlin.de> Organization: None X-Spook: 9705 Samford Road halcon Maple CIDA LLNL quiche Blowpipe mindwar LABLINK ANZUS X-Mailer-URL: http://www.mew.org/ X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux (http://www.linux.org/) X-Blessing: Om Ah Hum Vajra Guru Pema Siddhi Hum X-Mailer: Mew version 4.0.61 on Emacs 21.3.1 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 troestler:01 tiscali:99 oliver:01 in-berlin:01 oliver:01 bandel:01 baretta:01 baretta:01 reuse:01 dependencies:01 facto:01 findlib:01 packagers:01 chris:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 215 Hi, Here is my grain of salt about this issue. On Fri, 19 Mar 2004, oliver@first.in-berlin.de (Oliver Bandel) wrote: > > "The community" [...] is not orgenized enough to set up such a website. On Thu, 18 Mar 2004, Richard Jones wrote: > > [...] except to say that my company would be prepared to fund a > [virtual] server and put a little time into developing this repository. On Thu, 18 Mar 2004, Alex Baretta wrote: > > a central repository would be cool, and my company, too, would help > finance it or staff it. Interested people please go ahead! Why not have two (or more) machines that are mirror of each other? Also, one could reuse the Savanah software so as to provide development support, forums, documentation,... -- the list of available Caml packages could automatically be computed from the projects. Moreover dependencies with other project could conveniently be generated from META (or other) files and be rendered on-line as links. On Thu, 18 Mar 2004, Markus Mottl wrote: > > Some kind of package management in the spirit of GODI would be very > nice indeed, and I think that this should also become part of the > "Cathedral", because it would otherwise not take off easily. > Package management is such a basic and important tool that really > everybody using OCaml would need. I agree with Markus here. Not only coming with the standard distribution would make it the de facto standard but, what is more important, INRIA developers probably know more than anybody else about the various portability issues. Indeed I am not sure how well GODI or findlib work on M$ Win32 for example. Also, one needs to cooperate with Debian (or Redhat,...) packagers -- they have some experience and it would be good that the package system integrates well with their efforts. Finally, there should exist some minimal Makefile or such so that when one library binds to C/Fortran/... code, it is "easy" to do cross platform compilation. Lots of us I believe only have access to few of the platforms that OCaml supports ; tools and guidelines would be very helpful. My 2˘, ChriS ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id MAA05142; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:45:25 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04913 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:45:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from rabelais.socialtools.net (rabelais.socialtools.net [81.2.94.243]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JBjNHd022364 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:45:23 +0100 Received: by rabelais.socialtools.net (Postfix, from userid 108) id DB968232FD; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:45:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from socialtools.net (chaucer.socialtools.net [81.2.94.242]) by rabelais.socialtools.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9043F232DA; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:45:21 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <405ADD51.4030908@socialtools.net> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:45:21 +0000 From: Benjamin Geer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons Cc: caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Demande clarification nomenclature ocaml* References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on rabelais.socialtools.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 pons:01 extlib:01 claire:99 fernandez:01 ocaml:01 olivier:02 probleme:02 n'y:03 wrote:03 library:03 library:03 suppose:03 seems:05 structure:06 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 217 Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons wrote: > La communaute ne semble meme pas capable de se mettre d'accord sur la > nomenclature de ses bibliotheques. There is currently no structure allowing the community to make decisions about the standard library; naming is just one part of this problem. I agree that such a structure is needed. I assume that names such as 'ExtLib' were intended to be temporary, because the authors' view was that they were working on the standard library, and expected their work to be accepted after a reasonable review process. [Il n'y a pas actuellement de structure permettant ŕ la communauté de prendre des décisions au sujet de la bibliothčque standard; la nomenclature n'est qu'un aspect de ce problčme. Je suis d'accord pour dire qu'une telle structure est nécessaire. Je suppose que des noms tels que « ExtLib » étaient censés ętre provisoire, parce que les auteurs croyaient travailler sur la bibliothčque standard, et s'attendaient ŕ ce que leur travail soit accepté au terme d'un processus raisonnable d'évalulation.] > Il me semble raisonnable que l'utilisateur ait une vision claire de ce > qui est officiellement developpe par l'INRIA et de ce qui ne l'est > pas. What I want as a user is for the standard libraries to be actively developed, so that they respond to the needs of the community. The current approach to the development of the standard libraries seems to make this impossible. INRIA cannot scale, because it has a limited number of developers. The community can scale. [En tant qu'utilisateur, je veux que la bibliothčque standard soit activement développée pour qu'elle réponde aux besoins de la communauté. La façon dont elle est actuellement développée semble rendre cela impossible. INRIA ne peut pas monter en charge, parce qu'il a un nombre limité d'informaticiens. La communauté, elle, peut monter en charge.] Ben ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id MAA05507; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:49:16 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04202 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:49:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from rabelais.socialtools.net (rabelais.socialtools.net [81.2.94.243]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JBnDHd022925 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:49:13 +0100 Received: by rabelais.socialtools.net (Postfix, from userid 108) id 76B52232FD; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:49:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from socialtools.net (chaucer.socialtools.net [81.2.94.242]) by rabelais.socialtools.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C216232DA; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:49:12 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <405ADE38.1080509@socialtools.net> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:49:12 +0000 From: Benjamin Geer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sven Luther Cc: Alex Baretta , caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) References: <20040318184118.GC702@first.in-berlin.de> <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> <20040318232039.GA1912@redhat.com> <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> <20040319085819.GB9616@redhat.com> <20040319091334.GB20532@lambda> <405AC57A.1090300@baretta.com> <20040319101741.GA21455@lambda> In-Reply-To: <20040319101741.GA21455@lambda> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on rabelais.socialtools.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 sven:01 luther:01 patched:01 qpl:01 compiler:01 compiler:01 ocaml:01 patch:02 unix:02 patches:02 patches:02 wrote:03 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 218 Sven Luther wrote: > I am not entirely sure, but since i distribute the patched ocaml in > debian, and there has been no problem with that, i think there is some > horrible confusion going on here. The QPL says: You may make modifications to the Software and distribute your modifications, in a form that is separate from the Software, such as patches. This means that you cannot distribute modified compiler source code; you can only distribute patches. Someone who wants to use your modified compiler is therefore forced to install the standard compiler, then apply your patch. Ben ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA07099; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:17:37 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA07112 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:17:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from alex.baretta.com ([213.255.109.130]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JCI4KW030654 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:18:05 +0100 Received: from baretta.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by alex.baretta.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i2JCHwgh003691; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:17:58 +0100 Message-ID: <405AE4F6.6010801@baretta.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:17:58 +0100 From: Alex Baretta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sven Luther , Ocaml Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) References: <20040318184118.GC702@first.in-berlin.de> <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> <20040318232039.GA1912@redhat.com> <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> <20040319085819.GB9616@redhat.com> <20040319091334.GB20532@lambda> <405AC57A.1090300@baretta.com> <20040319101741.GA21455@lambda> In-Reply-To: <20040319101741.GA21455@lambda> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; baretta:01 baretta:01 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 sven:01 luther:01 2004:99 qpl:01 lgpl:01 sven:01 luther:01 qpl:01 impossibile:99 patched:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 219 Sven Luther wrote: > On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 11:03:38AM +0100, Alex Baretta wrote: > > Noting is stopping you from doing that, Please read the QPL and LGPL > before making such uninformed claims. > > Friendly, > > Sven Luther Sven, I am aware of the QPL. You do realize that it is an inconvenience to maintain the stock Ocaml tree and the patch, or tree of patches. It is not impossibile, but it is an inconvenience. I have a number of patches to the stock ocaml--minor stuff--which would be easier to maintain if I were allowed to distribute the modified source as opposed to source-and-patches. Since my company is under-staffed at present, I do not have time to spare for distributing patches. So we just keep our patched core for internal use and wait until there will be a coordinated effort to which we can contribute. This thread seems to indicate that the only viable proposal for creating a community project around Ocaml is Gerd's GODI. I'm glad that Xavier gave Gerd some informal backing. However, managing GODI is going to be troublesome (not impossibile, just troublesome) until the licensing will allow GODI to incorporate in its codebase any patches which the GODI maintainer/team will consider appropriate. I am expressing the need for the community project to make only additions, but actually modifications to the core project. I have no trouble with QPL 3.b, which is probably what INRIA cares most about. I am simply stating that QPL 2 is an unnecessary hassle for everyone. Alex ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA07809; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:20:33 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA06656 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:20:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.184]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JCL1KW031006 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:21:01 +0100 Received: from [212.227.126.160] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1B4IzE-00044g-00; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:20:28 +0100 Received: from [80.129.103.122] (helo=gate.gerd-stolpmann.de) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1B4IzE-0001aL-00; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:20:28 +0100 Received: from ice.gerd-stolpmann.de (ice.gerd-stolpmann.de [192.168.0.13]) by gate.gerd-stolpmann.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 322F556C0; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:20:27 +0100 (CET) Received: by ice.gerd-stolpmann.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5CEB4B035; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:20:26 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) From: Gerd Stolpmann To: Benjamin Geer Cc: Sven Luther , Alex Baretta , caml-list@inria.fr In-Reply-To: <405ADE38.1080509@socialtools.net> References: <20040318184118.GC702@first.in-berlin.de> <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> <20040318232039.GA1912@redhat.com> <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> <20040319085819.GB9616@redhat.com> <20040319091334.GB20532@lambda> <405AC57A.1090300@baretta.com> <20040319101741.GA21455@lambda> <405ADE38.1080509@socialtools.net> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1079698825.1280.10.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:20:26 +0100 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:a6865a839c0178d9aa0ce41878507ea2 X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 gerd:01 stolpmann:01 fre:99 2004:99 sven:01 luther:01 patched:01 qpl:01 dpkg:01 patched:01 gerd:01 stolpmann:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 221 On Fre, 2004-03-19 at 12:49, Benjamin Geer wrote: > Sven Luther wrote: > > I am not entirely sure, but since i distribute the patched ocaml in > > debian, and there has been no problem with that, i think there is some > > horrible confusion going on here. > > The QPL says: > > You may make modifications to the Software and > distribute your modifications, in a form that is > separate from the Software, such as patches. > > This means that you cannot distribute modified compiler source code; you > can only distribute patches. Someone who wants to use your modified > compiler is therefore forced to install the standard compiler, then > apply your patch. Where is the problem? If you have an auto-installer like GODI or Debian's dpkg this can be automated. So there is actually no hindrance to distribute a patched compiler to the masses. Gerd -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Gerd Stolpmann * Viktoriastr. 45 * 64293 Darmstadt * Germany gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA07822; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:29:04 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA07677 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:29:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from pop19.ucdavis.edu (pop19.ucdavis.edu [169.237.105.29]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JCT1Hd028496 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:29:02 +0100 Received: from mallorn (mallorn.ucdavis.edu [128.120.141.141]) by pop19.ucdavis.edu (8.12.10/8.12.9/it-std-5.2.0) with SMTP id i2JCT0Ld004843 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 04:29:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mallorn (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Fri, 19 Mar 2004 04:34:48 -0800 From: "Issac Trotts" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 04:34:48 -0800 To: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040319123448.GA21075@mallorn> Mail-Followup-To: ijtrotts@ucdavis.edu, caml-list@inria.fr References: <20040318184118.GC702@first.in-berlin.de> <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> <20040318232039.GA1912@redhat.com> <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> <20040319085819.GB9616@redhat.com> <20040319091334.GB20532@lambda> <405AC57A.1090300@baretta.com> <20040319101741.GA21455@lambda> <405ADE38.1080509@socialtools.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <405ADE38.1080509@socialtools.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; issac:01 trotts:01 ijtrotts:01 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 sven:01 luther:01 patched:01 qpl:01 automates:01 ijtrotts:01 foo:01 tarballs:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 223 On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 11:49:12AM +0000, Benjamin Geer wrote: > Sven Luther wrote: > >I am not entirely sure, but since i distribute the patched ocaml in > >debian, and there has been no problem with that, i think there is some > >horrible confusion going on here. > > The QPL says: > > You may make modifications to the Software and > distribute your modifications, in a form that is > separate from the Software, such as patches. > > This means that you cannot distribute modified compiler source code; you > can only distribute patches. Someone who wants to use your modified > compiler is therefore forced to install the standard compiler, then > apply your patch. After taking the time to modify the compiler, it's probably not too hard to write a little script that automates the process of applying a patch, something like this: #/bin/sh wget -c http://mallorn.ucdavis.edu/~ijtrotts/software/ocaml-install.sh bash ./ocaml-install.sh # Get GODI and run it. cd $wherever_the_ocaml_source_is/.. wget -c http://www.foo.com/my_patch patch -p0 < my_patch cd $wherever_the_ocaml_source_is ./configure && make world && make opt && make install Anyway, in the case when you want to have more than one set of changes to the compiler, patches would be more convenient than getting source tarballs, extracting patches yourself, and then applying them. -- Issac Trotts http://mallorn.ucdavis.edu/~ijtrotts (w) 530-757-8789 ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA07974; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:29:28 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA07759 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:29:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.173]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JCTQHd028551 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:29:26 +0100 Received: from [212.227.126.160] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1B4J7s-0002UA-00; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:29:24 +0100 Received: from [80.129.103.122] (helo=gate.gerd-stolpmann.de) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1B4J7s-0002yZ-00; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:29:24 +0100 Received: from ice.gerd-stolpmann.de (ice.gerd-stolpmann.de [192.168.0.13]) by gate.gerd-stolpmann.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0175356C0; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:29:23 +0100 (CET) Received: by ice.gerd-stolpmann.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 57735B035; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:29:23 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) From: Gerd Stolpmann To: Kenneth Knowles Cc: caml-list@inria.fr In-Reply-To: <20040319004742.GA8727@kefka.frap.net> References: <4059994E.2010802@socialtools.net> <20040318151234.B21768@pauillac.inria.fr> <1079653304.990.89.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> <20040319004742.GA8727@kefka.frap.net> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1079699362.1303.20.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:29:23 +0100 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:a6865a839c0178d9aa0ce41878507ea2 X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 gerd:01 stolpmann:01 fre:99 2004:99 knowles:99 findlib:01 findlib:01 cpan:01 cpan:01 namespaces:01 dependencies:01 namespaces:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 224 On Fre, 2004-03-19 at 01:47, Kenneth Knowles wrote: > > Of course, the Bazaar needs a bit more organisation, and as you know, I > > wrote software supporting this: Findlib and GODI. Findlib is mature > > software, even from a professional point of view, and many people are > > already using it. GODI is already usable. So the technical solutions > > exist (that means: THERE IS A CPAN FOR OCAML, although it uses a > > different implementation for a different language, and does not match > > C.*AN), and the remaining question is: Does the community accept it? > > CPAN is much more than an automatic-installation tool. The social organization > of the perl namespaces is by far the most important aspect of CPAN. The module > to automatically install dependencies etc is just a minor convenience next to > the over-arching organizational structure. My comments with regards to > namespacing and modules are focused on how to present a wide range of extended > libraries in a hierarchy that seems "standard" to someone browsing the archives, > to inspire confidence in the completeness and authoritativeness of the archive. > GODI doesn't (and doesn't intend to, so that's fine) solve this issue, but > clearly the auto-installer on top of such an organization is ready. This is also my point: We need some organization. Of course, as we don't have namespaces in ocaml, so this aspect does not apply (and it would be nonsense to implement namespaces only to have something people can talk about). But there are lots of other aspects, e.g. which libraries are missing, how accessibility of software can be ensured, etc. Gerd -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Gerd Stolpmann * Viktoriastr. 45 * 64293 Darmstadt * Germany gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA07519; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:31:11 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA08730 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:31:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from mwinf0103.wanadoo.fr (smtp1.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.30]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JCVdKW032196 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:31:39 +0100 Received: from lambda (AStrasbourg-206-1-23-200.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.49.251.200]) by mwinf0103.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id EBCBB1BFC2C1; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:31:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by lambda with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4J9f-00067l-00; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:31:15 +0100 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:31:12 +0100 To: Benjamin Geer Cc: Sven Luther , Alex Baretta , caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040319123112.GA23502@lambda> References: <20040318184118.GC702@first.in-berlin.de> <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> <20040318232039.GA1912@redhat.com> <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> <20040319085819.GB9616@redhat.com> <20040319091334.GB20532@lambda> <405AC57A.1090300@baretta.com> <20040319101741.GA21455@lambda> <405ADE38.1080509@socialtools.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <405ADE38.1080509@socialtools.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Sven Luther X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 sven:01 luther:01 sven:01 luther:01 2004:99 patched:01 qpl:01 compiler:01 compiler:01 ocaml:01 patch:02 binary:02 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 225 On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 11:49:12AM +0000, Benjamin Geer wrote: > Sven Luther wrote: > >I am not entirely sure, but since i distribute the patched ocaml in > >debian, and there has been no problem with that, i think there is some > >horrible confusion going on here. > > The QPL says: > > You may make modifications to the Software and > distribute your modifications, in a form that is > separate from the Software, such as patches. > > This means that you cannot distribute modified compiler source code; you > can only distribute patches. Someone who wants to use your modified > compiler is therefore forced to install the standard compiler, then > apply your patch. But then, it says : 4. You may distribute machine-executable forms of the Software or machine-executable forms of modified versions of the Software, provided that you meet these restrictions: ... So, i see no problem here. This is opposed to the old inria stuff, which prohibited binary distribution of modified works. Friendly, Sven Luther ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA09434; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:37:39 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA08916 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:37:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from mwinf0901.wanadoo.fr (smtp9.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.22]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JCc7KW000506 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:38:08 +0100 Received: from lambda (AStrasbourg-206-1-25-146.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.188.146]) by mwinf0901.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 645B618000F9; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:37:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by lambda with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4JG7-0006Fw-00; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:37:55 +0100 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:37:54 +0100 To: Alex Baretta Cc: Sven Luther , Ocaml Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040319123754.GB23502@lambda> References: <20040318184118.GC702@first.in-berlin.de> <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> <20040318232039.GA1912@redhat.com> <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> <20040319085819.GB9616@redhat.com> <20040319091334.GB20532@lambda> <405AC57A.1090300@baretta.com> <20040319101741.GA21455@lambda> <405AE4F6.6010801@baretta.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <405AE4F6.6010801@baretta.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Sven Luther X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 sven:01 luther:01 sven:01 luther:01 2004:99 baretta:01 2004:99 baretta:01 qpl:01 lgpl:01 qpl:01 impossibile:99 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 227 On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 01:17:58PM +0100, Alex Baretta wrote: > Sven Luther wrote: > >On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 11:03:38AM +0100, Alex Baretta wrote: > > > >Noting is stopping you from doing that, Please read the QPL and LGPL > >before making such uninformed claims. > > > >Friendly, > > > >Sven Luther > > Sven, I am aware of the QPL. Ok, i missed the part about source modifications only being allowed as separate patches. This is ok though. > You do realize that it is an inconvenience to maintain the stock Ocaml > tree and the patch, or tree of patches. It is not impossibile, but it is > an inconvenience. I have a number of patches to the stock ocaml--minor > stuff--which would be easier to maintain if I were allowed to distribute > the modified source as opposed to source-and-patches. Well, the debian package, apart from being a pristine upstream + patch format, also now comes in a form where the debian patch only adds the debian directory, and has a set of patches in debian/patches, conveniently applied and unapplied by dpatch. Very nice. > Since my company is under-staffed at present, I do not have time to > spare for distributing patches. So we just keep our patched core for > internal use and wait until there will be a coordinated effort to which > we can contribute. You could use a revision system, like CVS or more modern subversion or arch, and maintain a pristine upstream branch, and easily generate the patch in question. No difficulties there. > This thread seems to indicate that the only viable proposal for creating > a community project around Ocaml is Gerd's GODI. I'm glad that Xavier > gave Gerd some informal backing. However, managing GODI is going to be > troublesome (not impossibile, just troublesome) until the licensing will > allow GODI to incorporate in its codebase any patches which the GODI > maintainer/team will consider appropriate. Yeah, i know, GODI is nice, but i prefer native support as what we provide for debian, but then, i guess you are using an inferior OS anyway, so ... :)) > I am expressing the need for the community project to make only > additions, but actually modifications to the core project. I have no > trouble with QPL 3.b, which is probably what INRIA cares most about. I > am simply stating that QPL 2 is an unnecessary hassle for everyone. But still free software. I would be more concerned about rights to modify the documentation, but everyone its priority. Friendly, Sven Luther ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA09721; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:39:15 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA09614 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:39:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from pop19.ucdavis.edu (pop19.ucdavis.edu [169.237.105.29]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JCdCHd030124 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:39:13 +0100 Received: from mallorn (mallorn.ucdavis.edu [128.120.141.141]) by pop19.ucdavis.edu (8.12.10/8.12.9/it-std-5.2.0) with SMTP id i2JCdALd006215; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 04:39:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mallorn (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Fri, 19 Mar 2004 04:44:57 -0800 From: "Issac Trotts" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 04:44:57 -0800 To: Alex Baretta Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040319124457.GC21075@mallorn> Mail-Followup-To: ijtrotts@ucdavis.edu, Alex Baretta , caml-list@inria.fr References: <20040318184118.GC702@first.in-berlin.de> <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> <20040318232039.GA1912@redhat.com> <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> <20040319085819.GB9616@redhat.com> <20040319091334.GB20532@lambda> <405AC57A.1090300@baretta.com> <20040319101741.GA21455@lambda> <405AE4F6.6010801@baretta.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <405AE4F6.6010801@baretta.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; issac:01 trotts:01 ijtrotts:01 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 gerd's:01 gerd:01 impossibile:99 compiles:01 issac:01 trotts:01 ijtrotts:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 228 > This thread seems to indicate that the only viable proposal for creating > a community project around Ocaml is Gerd's GODI. I'm glad that Xavier > gave Gerd some informal backing. However, managing GODI is going to be > troublesome (not impossibile, just troublesome) until the licensing will > allow GODI to incorporate in its codebase any patches which the GODI > maintainer/team will consider appropriate. GODI packages can be made that include both the source and the patches, and the patches can be automatically applied by GODI just before it compiles OCaml. What would be wrong with doing it this way? -- Issac Trotts http://mallorn.ucdavis.edu/~ijtrotts (w) 530-757-8789 ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA10289; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:44:18 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA10589 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:44:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from rabelais.socialtools.net (rabelais.socialtools.net [81.2.94.243]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JCiGHd030734 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:44:16 +0100 Received: by rabelais.socialtools.net (Postfix, from userid 108) id 277FD232FD; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:44:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from socialtools.net (chaucer.socialtools.net [81.2.94.242]) by rabelais.socialtools.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9705A232DA; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:44:13 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <405AEB1D.6040109@socialtools.net> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:44:13 +0000 From: Benjamin Geer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gerd Stolpmann Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: [Caml-list] Proposed community structure (was Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar) References: <4059994E.2010802@socialtools.net> <20040318151234.B21768@pauillac.inria.fr> <1079653304.990.89.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> In-Reply-To: <1079653304.990.89.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on rabelais.socialtools.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 gerd:01 stolpmann:01 owners:99 owners:99 reviews:99 python's:01 peps:01 caml:01 patch:02 modules:02 owner:97 owner:97 patches:02 module:03 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 229 Gerd Stolpmann wrote: > In order to reach this goal, a number of questions should be answered > (best as some kind of community process): > > - How can people participate (add packages, fix bugs, improve the base > software)? > > - How can the quality be ensured? > > - How are decisions made? > > - How can the platform be kept open? How about a structure like this: * A GCC-like steering committee composed of very experienced, respected Caml developers, who would be responsible for setting overall policy and resolving conflicts in the community. * Mozilla-like module owners, designated by the steering committee. Module owners would review and accept patches for their modules after public discussion. * Rotating GCC-like release managers, also chosen by the steering committee. The release managers would be responsible for coordinating regular releases and determining when each release was ready. People could participate by posting proposals to a mailing list; discussion would ensue, and the relevant module owner would be expected to accept or reject the proposal within a reasonable amount of time, taking into account the consensus on the list. A Mozilla-like review process could be used: the author submits a patch, the module owner reviews it and requests changes, and they iterate until the module owner is satisfied. For major enhancements, a more formal, detailed proposal format could be used, like Python's PEPs. If INRIA was willing, such a structure could also take over development of the standard libraries. Ben ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id OAA12644; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 14:32:08 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA12701 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 14:32:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu (PACIFIC-CARRIER-ANNEX.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.83]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JDWZKW005981 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 14:32:36 +0100 Received: from grand-central-station.mit.edu (GRAND-CENTRAL-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.82]) by pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu (8.12.4/8.9.2) with ESMTP id i2JDW46w015266 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 08:32:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (MELBOURNE-CITY-STREET.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.86]) by grand-central-station.mit.edu (8.12.4/8.9.2) with ESMTP id i2JDTY99020976 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 08:29:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from nerd-xing.mit.edu (NERD-XING.MIT.EDU [18.7.16.74]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as jfc@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id i2JDKbTC007557 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 08:20:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from jfc@localhost) by nerd-xing.mit.edu (8.12.9) id i2JDKbsv027763; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 08:20:37 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200403191320.i2JDKbsv027763@nerd-xing.mit.edu> To: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:51:56 +0100." <20040319085156.GC14831@lambda> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 08:20:37 -0500 From: John Carr X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 jfc:01 bug:01 hypothetical:01 compiler:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 unix:02 library:03 cathedral:95 carr:05 persuade:05 completeness:93 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 230 [In reply to management concerns about support for ocaml and commercial product development:] > Well, nothing is stopping you from paying a programmer to fix the bug, > and have it integrated in the upstream release. Telling management that we need to hire a compiler expert won't persuade them to allow ocaml. I and other programmers tried to convince the company to use ClearCase. It would have made some of our work a lot easier. We were told no, because conventional wisdom says ClearCase needs a dedicated system administrator and they didn't want to hire another person. Real costs win over hypothetical savings. ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id OAA14713; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 14:56:53 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA14995 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 14:56:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from sark.cc.gatech.edu (sark.cc.gatech.edu [130.207.7.23]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JDuoHd007179 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 14:56:50 +0100 Received: from gaia.cc.gatech.edu (gaia.cc.gatech.edu [130.207.3.8]) by sark.cc.gatech.edu (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i2JDuhfR021653; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 08:56:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (from fernando@localhost) by gaia.cc.gatech.edu (8.12.10/8.12.8) id i2JDugZl012506; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 08:56:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 08:56:42 -0500 From: Fernando Alegre To: Sven Luther Cc: Richard Jones , caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Modules and namespaces Message-ID: <20040319135642.GA22254@gaia.cc.gatech.edu> References: <200403191049.27133.wolfgang.mueller2@uni-bayreuth.de> <20040319101931.GA10938@redhat.com> <20040319104514.GA21926@lambda> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040319104514.GA21926@lambda> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; alegre:01 gatech:01 caml-list:01 namespaces:01 2004:99 sven:01 luther:01 2004:99 dbi:99 dbi:99 -pack:01 ocamllibdir:01 usr:01 3.07:01 usr:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 231 On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 11:45:14AM +0100, Sven Luther wrote: > On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 10:19:31AM +0000, Richard Jones wrote: > > It would be quite possible for someone else to write a Dbi module > > located in the -I +anotherdbi directory. No conflict would arise > > unless some strange person wanted to use both types of Dbi module > > in their program - an unlikely occurrence presumably. > > You can achieve this by using the -pack option when creating libraries. > Sure it has still some problems, but it is the way to go to solve this > problem. > > What is really missing is support for more than one OCAMLLIBDIR, in > order to be able to easily separate the libraries installed by your > package manager (/usr/lib/ocaml/3.07 for debian), by the one installed > locally by the sysadmin (/usr/local/lib/ocaml/3.07 for debian), and the > user specific ones (less important though, but still usefull). It seems that you both also miss the -pre_open and -stdlib switches in the compiler. A pre_open switch would take care of 2 modules called Dbi without modifying them: (* wrapper1.ml *) module DbiVendor1 = Dbi ==== (* wrapper2.ml *) module DbiVendor2 = Dbi === ocamlc -c -I path_to_vendor1 wrapper1.ml -I path_to_vendor2 wrapper2.ml ... === A stdlib switch is what Sven is asking above. Both switches, along with pack, is all we need to create our custom packaging/namespace management systems independently of INRIA. What do you think? These switches would also be policy-neutral, so that nobody is _forced_ to use GODI, debian packages or any other middleware if they do not fit their environment, but still allow people to use external libraries without fear of namespace clashes. Fernando ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id QAA19601; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:12:18 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA20862 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:12:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from mwinf0204.wanadoo.fr (smtp2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.29]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JFCGHd017509 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:12:16 +0100 Received: from lambda (AStrasbourg-206-1-25-146.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.188.146]) by mwinf0204.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 4CA03A00004A; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:12:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by lambda with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4Lfm-0006rK-00; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:12:34 +0100 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:12:33 +0100 To: John Carr Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040319151233.GA26339@lambda> References: <20040319085156.GC14831@lambda> <200403191320.i2JDKbsv027763@nerd-xing.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200403191320.i2JDKbsv027763@nerd-xing.mit.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Sven Luther X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 sven:01 luther:01 sven:01 luther:01 2004:99 bug:01 hypothetical:01 compiler:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 consortium:01 complexity:02 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 233 On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 08:20:37AM -0500, John Carr wrote: > > [In reply to management concerns about support for ocaml and > commercial product development:] > > > Well, nothing is stopping you from paying a programmer to fix the bug, > > and have it integrated in the upstream release. > > Telling management that we need to hire a compiler expert won't > persuade them to allow ocaml. > > I and other programmers tried to convince the company to use > ClearCase. It would have made some of our work a lot easier. > We were told no, because conventional wisdom says ClearCase > needs a dedicated system administrator and they didn't want to > hire another person. Real costs win over hypothetical savings. I don't understand. You wrote : have the time" is an acceptable answer. We pay a company to provide us with an embedded Linux environment including cross-compilation tools. While in reality ocaml will be more reliable than g++ due to the vast difference in complexity, that doesn't overcome the fear. So, how is that different participating in the Ocaml Consortium, and thus making sure someone is paid to do the things you need ? Or is payng for one thing ok, but not for the other ? Friendly, Sven Luther ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id QAA30226; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:14:56 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA13430 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:14:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from mwinf0302.wanadoo.fr (smtp3.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.28]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JFFOKW017607 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:15:25 +0100 Received: from lambda (AStrasbourg-206-1-25-146.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.188.146]) by mwinf0302.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 4D406C000238; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:14:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by lambda with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4LiJ-0006s3-00; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:15:11 +0100 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:15:11 +0100 To: Fernando Alegre Cc: Sven Luther , Richard Jones , caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Modules and namespaces Message-ID: <20040319151511.GB26339@lambda> References: <200403191049.27133.wolfgang.mueller2@uni-bayreuth.de> <20040319101931.GA10938@redhat.com> <20040319104514.GA21926@lambda> <20040319135642.GA22254@gaia.cc.gatech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040319135642.GA22254@gaia.cc.gatech.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Sven Luther X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 namespaces:01 sven:01 luther:01 sven:01 luther:01 2004:99 alegre:01 stdlib:01 clashes:01 usr:01 ocaml:01 modules:02 external:03 conf:03 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 234 On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 08:56:42AM -0500, Fernando Alegre wrote: > === > > A stdlib switch is what Sven is asking above. > > Both switches, along with pack, is all we need to create our custom > packaging/namespace management systems independently of INRIA. What do you > think? > > These switches would also be policy-neutral, so that nobody is _forced_ to > use GODI, debian packages or any other middleware if they do not fit their > environment, but still allow people to use external libraries without fear > of namespace clashes. Nope, what i want is the $OCAMLPATH env var, or a similar mechanism, maybe configured in /etc/ocaml.conf or whatever. Sure, this can be achieved by using explicit path to those sysadmin installed libraries in /usr/local, but it is less convenient. Friendly, Sven Luther ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id SAA29247; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 18:30:17 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA24337 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 18:30:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.176]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JHUEHd001101 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 18:30:15 +0100 Received: from [212.227.126.160] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1B4Np0-0001ie-00; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 18:30:14 +0100 Received: from [80.129.103.122] (helo=gate.gerd-stolpmann.de) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1B4Np0-0003YQ-00; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 18:30:14 +0100 Received: from ice.gerd-stolpmann.de (ice.gerd-stolpmann.de [192.168.0.13]) by gate.gerd-stolpmann.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4C0D5721; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 18:30:13 +0100 (CET) Received: by ice.gerd-stolpmann.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E82D6B035; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 18:30:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: [Caml-list] Re: Proposed community structure (was Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar) From: Gerd Stolpmann To: Benjamin Geer Cc: caml-list@inria.fr In-Reply-To: <405AEB1D.6040109@socialtools.net> References: <4059994E.2010802@socialtools.net> <20040318151234.B21768@pauillac.inria.fr> <1079653304.990.89.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> <405AEB1D.6040109@socialtools.net> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1079717412.1319.83.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 18:30:12 +0100 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:a6865a839c0178d9aa0ce41878507ea2 X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 gerd:01 stolpmann:01 fre:99 2004:99 44,:01 gerd:01 stolpmann:01 owners:99 owners:99 reviews:99 python's:01 peps:01 incompatible:01 viktoriastr:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 239 On Fre, 2004-03-19 at 13:44, Benjamin Geer wrote: > Gerd Stolpmann wrote: > > In order to reach this goal, a number of questions should be answered > > (best as some kind of community process): > > > > - How can people participate (add packages, fix bugs, improve the base > > software)? > > > > - How can the quality be ensured? > > > > - How are decisions made? > > > > - How can the platform be kept open? > > How about a structure like this: > > * A GCC-like steering committee composed of very > experienced, respected Caml developers, who would be > responsible for setting overall policy and resolving > conflicts in the community. I hope we don't need such a committee. First we should try to seek a consensus. I suppose this will almost always be successful, and over time we will have a situation where the voices of some people will have more weight than the voices of others, simply because they are naturally respected. So I would suggest to postpone such a committee until it is really needed, when everything else failed. > * Mozilla-like module owners, designated by the > steering committee. Module owners would review and > accept patches for their modules after public > discussion. GODI currently has packages which are comparable with modules. Every package has a maintainer. Initially, the maintainer is the person who adds the package to the repository. Technically, I don't plan any sort of access control, i.e. everybody with an account can change everything. Of course, it is bad practise to change the package maintained by somebody else without notification. I simply believe that a good practise of cooperation is better than formal rules. > * Rotating GCC-like release managers, also chosen by the > steering committee. The release managers would be > responsible for coordinating regular releases and > determining when each release was ready. It is currently unclear for me whether we should have releases at all. GODI has the ability to update every package separately, so what is a release? Of course, for the outer world a formal release is something valuable. We definitely need a process to determine when each package is ready for release. We'll see how to do that. > People could participate by posting proposals to a mailing list; > discussion would ensue, and the relevant module owner would be expected > to accept or reject the proposal within a reasonable amount of time, > taking into account the consensus on the list. A Mozilla-like review > process could be used: the author submits a patch, the module owner > reviews it and requests changes, and they iterate until the module owner > is satisfied. For major enhancements, a more formal, detailed proposal > format could be used, like Python's PEPs. There is now a mailing list, see the separate announcement. I think we will see whether we need formal rules or not. This depends a lot of parameters that are currently uncertain, e.g. the number of developers. > If INRIA was willing, such a structure could also take over development > of the standard libraries. I guess they have their own internal process which is incompatible with such a structure. Gerd -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Gerd Stolpmann * Viktoriastr. 45 * 64293 Darmstadt * Germany gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id TAA32302; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 19:29:36 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA00567 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 19:29:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from smtp.mbg.ocn.ne.jp (mbg.ocn.ne.jp [210.190.142.181]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JIU2KW003539 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 19:30:03 +0100 Received: from localhost (p41250-adsau14honb7-acca.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp [61.113.194.250]) by smtp.mbg.ocn.ne.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F0185FB6 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 03:29:31 +0900 (JST) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 03:29:04 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20040320.032904.18315265.yoriyuki@mbg.ocn.ne.jp> To: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Structuring the Caml community From: Yamagata Yoriyuki In-Reply-To: <20040319.115812.114355331.debian00@tiscali.be> References: <20040319083631.GA951@first.in-berlin.de> <20040319.115812.114355331.debian00@tiscali.be> X-Mailer: Mew version 2.2 on Emacs 21.2 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 yamagata:01 yoriyuki:01 yoriyuki:01 troestler:01 tiscali:99 caml-list:01 2004:99 baretta:01 baretta:01 reuse:01 dependencies:01 camomile:01 sourceforge:01 camomile:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 242 From: Christophe TROESTLER Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Structuring the Caml community Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:58:12 +0100 (CET) > On Thu, 18 Mar 2004, Alex Baretta wrote: > > > > a central repository would be cool, and my company, too, would help > > finance it or staff it. > > Interested people please go ahead! Why not have two (or more) > machines that are mirror of each other? Also, one could reuse the > Savanah software so as to provide development support, forums, > documentation,... -- the list of available Caml packages could > automatically be computed from the projects. Moreover dependencies > with other project could conveniently be generated from META (or > other) files and be rendered on-line as links. This kind of move is great indeed. Actually, I am considering moving away Camomile from Sourceforge. Souceforge is unreachable from here more than half a time, which impedes a development. I have purchased a hosting service already, but it is really cheap one and does not provide CVS and so on. I will also welcome donation of hosting specific to Camomile. If you are interested, please contact to me. -- Yamagata Yoriyuki ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id UAA03090; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 20:03:45 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA02783 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 20:03:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from plover.csun.edu (plover.csun.edu [130.166.1.24]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JJ3gHd010913 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 20:03:42 +0100 Received: from puffin.csun.edu (puffin.csun.edu [130.166.1.21]) by plover.csun.edu (MOS 3.4.4-GR) with ESMTP id BBO17594 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:03:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [130.166.10.69] (s010n069.csun.edu [130.166.10.69]) by puffin.csun.edu (MOS 3.4.4-GR) with ESMTP id BNL20771 (AUTH eric) for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:03:37 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <1FBC9CE8-79D8-11D8-ACC9-000A95A1E69A@csun.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Eric Stokes Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Structuring the Caml community (Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:03:35 -0800 To: Ocaml X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 ocaml's:01 ocaml's:01 perl's:01 wiki:01 indirection:01 alain:01 frisch:01 perl's:01 lacks:01 approval:99 approval:99 caml-list:01 wiki:01 bounded:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 243 I've done a bit of looking around, and comparing our (Ocaml's) web presence with perl's. I've been trying to boil things down a bit to something more fundamental, so here is my humble attempt :P The structural components of the web presence for a language seem to be. 1. The overall index. A place where all the junk associated with the language lives, a good place to point a beginner, or a pointy haired boss. Should contain some high level description of what the language is like, and some general fanfare, logos, etc. Should also sit on a dns name closely related to the name of the language. Should always have links to - Documentation, tutorials, high level descriptions (for the pointy haired ones (pls excuse my dilbert references)) - A compiler download - An index of libraries written in the language - A forum for communication with other members of the community (mailing list, wiki, irc, forum, whatever) - News about the language 2. The documentation, which can be spread out in various places, and in various formats, so long as most all of it occurs no more than 3 levels of indirection (or so) away from the index. 3. Some index (or indexes) of libraries available for the language. One index is usually better, but if there are two they tend to mirror each-other anyway (witness the hump, and the link database). Given all this, I claim that the Ocaml web presence is actually pretty good. See embedded. On Mar 18, 2004, at 3:44 PM, Alain.Frisch@ens.fr wrote: > It would be great to see one of the companies committed to OCaml > setting > up a "community web site" (the index site, see #1) http://www.ocaml.org/ Actually is a very good index site, almost on par with perl's. Has all the relevant requirements, I like the logo/fanfare better than perl's (what can I say, its a cool picture). The only area where it really lacks is the news section. The news items are old, which makes it look like there is nothing happening with the language community, which is in fact, not true. I can sympathize with the effort required to correctly maintain a website (as I maintain several), and I'd say that INRIA is doing a pretty darn good job with the limited resources that they have. With respect to the datedness of the news items, There is probably a clean way for the community to have some input about what goes up there. My first crack at the problem would be to have the news part of the page included by an SSI or similar, and have a web interface by which members of the community could propose new news items, subject to approval by INRIA. That would leave INRIA only with the task of reading and approving new news items, which as long as the approval interface is clean and simple seems to me to be less work than actually writing them. > , lauching specific mailing lists / forums to > discuss technical issues (like "best practices" for packaging > libraries) > and less technical ones (the mailing list) caml-list@inria.fr and lots of other off site ones besides that. > ("shall we better have a wiki or blogs to make > the community visible ?"), A wiki is not a bad idea at all > and organizing a somewhat formal system to > reach conclusions in a bounded amount of time (vote ?). Then publish > the > results, and call for participation if some resources are necessary to > develop or set up something. I'm with Gerd on this one. Formal systems develop out of need, and I don't see the need. Our web presence is pretty organized. INRIA has done a good job with the index, and the community has provided a pretty good index of software. Honestly, I'm a bit in awe of all the fuss on this thread. What specifically is wrong with the link database, or the hump? There is a metric fuckton (to use a colloquialism) of high quality libraries and documentation indexed on both of them! GODI looks promising, personally I commit to adding the libraries I maintain to GODI soon. > This does not seem out of reach, we "just" > need someone to take some responsibility and organize the process. Many > people will be happy to help if some initial impulsion is given. > On the community side GPS (Gerd Stolpmann) has been at this for years, and its had a very positive effect on things. I suggest interested parties check out his web site, join the GODI mailing list, check out the link database, etc.. He is leading in the direction you all seem to want to go, and he has a lot of the work done already! > > -- Alain > > ------------------- > To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: > http://caml.inria.fr > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: > http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id XAA12798; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:34:21 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA12830 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:34:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from rabelais.socialtools.net (rabelais.socialtools.net [81.2.94.243]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JMYnKW023394 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:34:49 +0100 Received: by rabelais.socialtools.net (Postfix, from userid 108) id E9DE5232FD; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:34:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from socialtools.net (chaucer.socialtools.net [81.2.94.242]) by rabelais.socialtools.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E312B232DA; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:34:17 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <405B7569.9080404@socialtools.net> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:34:17 +0000 From: Benjamin Geer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Stokes Cc: Ocaml Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Structuring the Caml community (Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar) References: <1FBC9CE8-79D8-11D8-ACC9-000A95A1E69A@csun.edu> In-Reply-To: <1FBC9CE8-79D8-11D8-ACC9-000A95A1E69A@csun.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on rabelais.socialtools.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 ocaml's:01 perl's:01 unmaintained:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 caml:01 caml:01 structuring:02 worse:03 wrote:03 cathedral:95 ugly:05 service:94 news:94 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 248 Eric Stokes wrote: > (the index site, see #1) > http://www.ocaml.org/ > > Actually is a very good index site, almost on par with perl's. Has all > the relevant requirements, I think it's an embarrassment. It's an unmaintained site that hasn't updated since 2002. It's actually worse than no site at all, because it contains links to dead projects (e.g. the Caml Development Kit and the OCaml IRC Server, which doesn't even exist anymore). As you point out, the news items haven't been updated since 2002, which strongly gives the impression that Caml is completely dead. Worst of all, it uses the word 'hacker', which to most managers means 'criminal that tries to attack my servers'. Whoever created this site would be doing the Caml community a great service by taking it off the web. The caml.inria.fr site is ugly, but at least it's correct and up to date. Ben ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id XAA14275; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:58:41 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA14251 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:58:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.48]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JMwcHd001838 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:58:39 +0100 Received: from cpe-66-1-251-143.co.sprintbbd.net ([66.1.251.143] helo=earthlink.net) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1B4Swl-0003X6-00 for caml-list@inria.fr; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 14:58:35 -0800 Message-ID: <405B7B20.3070207@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:58:40 -0700 From: "Matthew O'Connor" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (X11/20040215) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ocaml Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Structuring the Caml community (Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar) References: <1FBC9CE8-79D8-11D8-ACC9-000A95A1E69A@csun.edu> <405B7569.9080404@socialtools.net> In-Reply-To: <405B7569.9080404@socialtools.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 ocaml's:01 perl's:01 unmaintained:01 'ocaml':01 ocaml:01 caml:01 caml:01 structuring:02 wrote:03 wrote:03 snip:04 cathedral:95 news:94 impression:06 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 250 Benjamin Geer wrote: > Eric Stokes wrote: > >> (the index site, see #1) >> http://www.ocaml.org/ >> >> Actually is a very good index site, almost on par with perl's. Has all >> the relevant requirements, > > > I think it's an embarrassment. It's an unmaintained site that hasn't > updated since 2002. > As you point out, > the news items haven't been updated since 2002, which strongly gives the > impression that Caml is completely dead. This is also especially bad for people like me who didn't know until recently that it's not the official site (but there's no mention on caml.inria.fr that it is). Oh, and it's the first hit on Google for 'ocaml'. Matt ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id AAA15108; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 00:15:35 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA15163 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 00:15:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from plover.csun.edu (plover.csun.edu [130.166.1.24]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2JNG2KW027121 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 00:16:03 +0100 Received: from puffin.csun.edu (puffin.csun.edu [130.166.1.21]) by plover.csun.edu (MOS 3.4.4-GR) with ESMTP id BBO36255; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [130.166.10.69] (s010n069.csun.edu [130.166.10.69]) by puffin.csun.edu (MOS 3.4.4-GR) with ESMTP id BNL43079 (AUTH eric); Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:15:28 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <405B7569.9080404@socialtools.net> References: <1FBC9CE8-79D8-11D8-ACC9-000A95A1E69A@csun.edu> <405B7569.9080404@socialtools.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <4D60BD1C-79FB-11D8-ACC9-000A95A1E69A@csun.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Ocaml From: Eric Stokes Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Structuring the Caml community (Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:15:24 -0800 To: Benjamin Geer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 ocaml's:01 perl's:01 unmaintained:01 bug:01 faq:01 faq:01 beginner's:01 beginners:01 bin:01 caml-bugs:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 caml:01 caml:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 251 And what makes all that you've said really bad is that www.ocaml.org is the first site I found. And I've found it referenced in lots of other places. I still claim that the current www.ocaml.org site HAS the right idea, and has a decent format. It isn't perfect, but what is. If some of the links to dead end projects were cleaned off it, and the news items were updated, it would be a very good site. On Mar 19, 2004, at 2:34 PM, Benjamin Geer wrote: > Eric Stokes wrote: >> (the index site, see #1) >> http://www.ocaml.org/ >> Actually is a very good index site, almost on par with perl's. Has >> all the relevant requirements, > > I think it's an embarrassment. It's an unmaintained site that hasn't > updated since 2002. It's actually worse than no site at all, because > it contains links to dead projects (e.g. the Caml Development Kit and > the OCaml IRC Server, which doesn't even exist anymore). As you point > out, the news items haven't been updated since 2002, which strongly > gives the impression that Caml is completely dead. Worst of all, it > uses the word 'hacker', which to most managers means 'criminal that > tries to attack my servers'. Whoever created this site would be doing > the Caml community a great service by taking it off the web. The > caml.inria.fr site is ugly, but at least it's correct and up to date. > > Ben > > ------------------- > To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: > http://caml.inria.fr > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: > http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id AAA12194; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 00:24:13 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA16001 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 00:24:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from woodstock.1969.ws (64-215-156-42.eosinc.net [64.215.156.42]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i2JNOcKW027787 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 00:24:41 +0100 Received: (qmail 8187 invoked from network); 19 Mar 2004 23:24:24 -0000 Received: from karl.1969.ws (HELO 1969.ws) (10.3.2.15) by woodstock.1969.ws with SMTP; 19 Mar 2004 23:24:24 -0000 Message-ID: <405B8103.9050709@1969.ws> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:23:47 -0800 From: Karl Zilles Organization: 1969 Communications, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Stokes CC: Benjamin Geer , Ocaml Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Structuring the Caml community (Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar) References: <1FBC9CE8-79D8-11D8-ACC9-000A95A1E69A@csun.edu> <405B7569.9080404@socialtools.net> <4D60BD1C-79FB-11D8-ACC9-000A95A1E69A@csun.edu> In-Reply-To: <4D60BD1C-79FB-11D8-ACC9-000A95A1E69A@csun.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 ocaml's:01 mailed:98 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 caml:01 referenced:02 structuring:02 wrote:03 cathedral:95 maintainer:04 news:94 news:94 eric:06 discussion:08 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 252 Eric Stokes wrote: > And what makes all that you've said really bad is that www.ocaml.org is > the first site I found. And I've found > it referenced in lots of other places. I still claim that the current > www.ocaml.org site HAS the right idea, > and has a decent format. It isn't perfect, but what is. If some of the > links to dead end projects were cleaned > off it, and the news items were updated, it would be a very good site. Yes. I just mailed the maintainer: > There is currently a discussion about the ocaml.org web page going on in the ocaml mailing list. > > Someone points out that the lack of updates in the news section makes it looks like ocaml is a dead language. Since there is no indication on ocaml.org that it is not an "official" ocaml page, and since it is currently the #1 hit when you search for ocaml on google... ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA29858; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:12:48 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA31353 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:12:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from mz1.forethought.net (mzpi3.forethought.net [216.241.36.12]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2K6DGKW025828 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:13:17 +0100 Received: from [216.241.35.41] (helo=swordfish) by mz1.forethought.net with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1B4Ziv-0007gu-0o for caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:12:45 -0700 Received: from matt by swordfish with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4Ziy-0006nG-00 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:12:48 -0700 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:12:48 -0700 From: Matt Gushee To: caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040320061248.GA26090@swordfish> Reply-To: Matt Gushee Mail-Followup-To: caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr References: <07FEC955-782B-11D8-850C-000A957FFA4A@csun.edu> <20040318001905.36025.qmail@web41206.mail.yahoo.com> <20040318085638.GA11753@swordfish> <20040318185723.GE27866@speakeasy.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040318185723.GE27866@speakeasy.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; gushee:01 mgushee:01 havenrock:01 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 namespaces:01 facetious:01 extlib:01 gushee:01 englewood:01 manure:01 mgushee:01 havenrock:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 257 On Thu, Mar 18, 2004 at 10:57:23AM -0800, Shawn Wagner wrote: > > project, only more extensive (BTW, why are there two ExtLibs?? One of > > you change the name, please! Thank you.). Maybe if that project showed > > There are two extlibs because two different people decided to release > libraries filling in gaps in the standard library, using the obvious name, [ .... ] > Even if one of us did change the name of ours, there would still be problems > if someone wanted to use both, because some modules have the same names. > I've also noticed other libraries recently where that sort of colllision > would be a problem. As the available number of libraries for ocaml grows, > it'll get worse. High on my wish-list for the core ocaml system is > namespaces or something similiar to help resolve this problem. Agreed. Even in my fairly short time programming OCaml, I've had to struggle several times to find a good name for a module. Although I wasn't being exactly facetious in my remark about ExtLib, I'm not terribly upset either, and I hope nobody takes my words too seriously. I certainly understand the problem. -- Matt Gushee When a nation follows the Way, Englewood, Colorado, USA Horses bear manure through mgushee@havenrock.com its fields; http://www.havenrock.com/ When a nation ignores the Way, Horses bear soldiers through its streets. --Lao Tzu (Peter Merel, trans.) ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA30772; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:15:18 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA31261 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:15:17 +0100 (MET) X-SPAM-Warning: Sending machine is listed in blackholes.five-ten-sg.com Received: from web41206.mail.yahoo.com (web41206.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.39]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i2K6FFHd009499 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:15:16 +0100 Message-ID: <20040320061515.32115.qmail@web41206.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.242.203.84] by web41206.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:15:15 PST Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:15:15 -0800 (PST) From: Vasili Galchin Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library To: Sven Luther , james woodyatt Cc: Vasili Galchin , caml-list@inria.fr In-Reply-To: <20040319101936.GB21455@lambda> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 run-time:01 sven:01 sven:01 luther:01 luther:01 2004:99 woodyatt:01 otherlibs:01 mli:01 posix:01 api:01 mli:01 lacking:01 bug:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 258 Hi Sven, There is one guy, Georgi (I don't know how to say in French only on Russian), who IMO did a very nice job on IPV6. I personally want this stuff folded into the OCAML source. That is why I started this thread, i.e. to light a fire under somebody. Georgi did this last year(!!), but still not in OCaml source base! Regards, Vasili --- Sven Luther wrote: > On Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 09:59:20AM -0800, james > woodyatt wrote: > > On 09 Mar 2004, at 09:30, Vasili Galchin wrote: > > > > > > I have yet to finish reading through > otherlibs/unix/unix.mli. I > > >kind of consider this POSIX API support. In any > case, is there is a > > >consensus that what is in unix.mli is complete? > Or does new > > >functionality have to be added? If so, what? > > > > I think the Unix module could be regarded as > incomplete. > > > > The tactic I have taken with this problem is to > regard the Unix library > > in the Ocaml distribution as the property of > INRIA. It has what it > > has, and it will get what INRIA decides is missing > when the INRIA team > > decides to put it there. > > > > I found the support for socket options to be > lacking. I wanted IPv6 > > I also have a bug report open against the debian > ocaml package asking > quite intently for IPv6 supoprt, also claiming ocaml > to be 'useless' to > him until it would support IPv6. > > Is there any IPv6 support planed in the near future > ? I know this > discussion did already happen, but i guess nothing > came of it back then. > > Friendly, > > Sven Luther > > ------------------- > To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr > Archives: http://caml.inria.fr > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: > http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA31518; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:23:11 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA31438 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:23:10 +0100 (MET) X-SPAM-Warning: Sending machine is listed in blackholes.five-ten-sg.com Received: from web41202.mail.yahoo.com (web41202.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.35]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i2K6N8Hd010082 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:23:09 +0100 Message-ID: <20040320062307.41691.qmail@web41202.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.242.203.84] by web41202.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:23:07 PST Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:23:07 -0800 (PST) From: Vasili Galchin Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) To: Matt Gushee , caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Cc: vasiliocaml@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <20040318085638.GA11753@swordfish> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 pragmatic:01 gushee:01 mgushee:01 havenrock:01 2004:99 posix:01 tad:99 suitably:01 pressures:99 vaguely:01 fragile:01 camlp:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 259 Matt, Thank you! I was away for a bit. You are not being grandiose at all. When I started the discussion about "Unix completeness", I was tactfully (maybe not so tactfully) asking why OCaml is not like Linux??!! Your metaphor is exactly where I was going. I really want to see to a functional language make it into the mainstream (i.e. I have programmed in imperative languages all of my 28 year career ... nothing has changed). After looking at various FPL code bases, I really believe taht OCaml has a shot assuming we all take the challenge seriously (I have been in American industry for 26 years ... which sadly is far too pragmatic and conservative to change). Regards, Vasili --- Matt Gushee wrote: > On Wed, Mar 17, 2004 at 04:19:05PM -0800, Vasili > Galchin wrote: > > > > and so, those of us who have created bindings > for > > > other Posix functions > > > should > > > try to work with them to get our code merged. > This > > Eric, it sounds to me that you and I are on > the > > same page, i.e. in total agreement. What prompted > my > > posting is that I feel a tad frustrated when I > read > > code that I believe is very good (e.g. Georgi's > ipv6 > > socket code where he split socket stuff out from > > unix.ml by itself making readibility much better > and > > esaier multiple people to work and not having big > > merge problems) and I hear about other code. In > both > > cases, these new code seems to have been sitting > > around and not code reviewed and put into CVS, > where > > it should be. Also there is a danger of some > > divergence because someone will use some of this > > non-checked in code and it becomes defacto > standard. > > So, OCaml community, how do we move forward to get > > this new processed and potentially merged into the > > mainline. > > (Sorry about the grandiose title. I have nothing > suitably profound to > say ... just couldn't think of a better way to > express the subject.) > > I wonder if it is possible to persuade INRIA to do > anything. > > I have no inside information on the process at > INRIA, but my impression > from reading this list over the past year or so is: > > 1) The OCaml team at INRIA care about the > community, but there are too > few of them to meet all our needs, and I suppose > their work is also > subject to institutional pressures that we are > only vaguely aware > of. Maybe they are struggling to keep enough > resources for OCaml > work. > > 2) INRIA as an institution finds it convenient to > release OCaml as open > source, but doesn't really care about the > community. They benignly > neglect everything that doesn't relate to their > research goals. > > 3) OCaml-as-project (i.e. I'm talking about how > OCaml is developed, not > what it is) is a fragile enterprise. E.g., one > developer leaves, and > the future of Camlp4 becomes uncertain. Not > good. > > I'm not saying you should give up hope just yet, but > maybe it's time to > consider alternatives. > > What if there were an "OCaml Community Library > Project"--a group outside > INRIA that would take responsibility for extending > and perhaps partially > replacing the standard library--maybe a bit like the > current ExtLib > project, only more extensive (BTW, why are there two > ExtLibs?? One of > you change the name, please! Thank you.). Maybe if > that project showed > itself to be responsible, credible, reliable, etc. > etc., after a while > it could become the de facto standard library. > > The idealistic scenario is a division of labor > wherein INRIA continues > to develop the parts of OCaml that are interesting > to them, while other > parts (of more interest to those of us working to > create practical > and/or commercial software) would be taken over by > the community. > > I can't say whether this idea is feasible, or > whether INRIA would be > willing to go along with it, but maybe it's > something to consider. > > -- > Matt Gushee When a nation follows > the Way, > Englewood, Colorado, USA Horses bear manure > through > mgushee@havenrock.com its fields; > http://www.havenrock.com/ When a nation ignores > the Way, > Horses bear soldiers > through > its streets. > > --Lao Tzu (Peter Merel, > trans.) > > ------------------- > To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr > Archives: http://caml.inria.fr > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: > http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA31189; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:23:30 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA31931 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:23:29 +0100 (MET) X-SPAM-Warning: Sending machine is listed in blackholes.five-ten-sg.com Received: from web41213.mail.yahoo.com (web41213.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.46]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i2K6NRHd010117 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:23:28 +0100 Message-ID: <20040320062327.79757.qmail@web41213.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.242.203.84] by web41213.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:23:27 PST Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:23:27 -0800 (PST) From: Vasili Galchin Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) To: Matt Gushee , caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Cc: vasiliocaml@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <20040318085638.GA11753@swordfish> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 pragmatic:01 gushee:01 mgushee:01 havenrock:01 2004:99 posix:01 tad:99 suitably:01 pressures:99 vaguely:01 fragile:01 camlp:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 260 Matt, Thank you! I was away for a bit. You are not being grandiose at all. When I started the discussion about "Unix completeness", I was tactfully (maybe not so tactfully) asking why OCaml is not like Linux??!! Your metaphor is exactly where I was going. I really want to see to a functional language make it into the mainstream (i.e. I have programmed in imperative languages all of my 28 year career ... nothing has changed). After looking at various FPL code bases, I really believe taht OCaml has a shot assuming we all take the challenge seriously (I have been in American industry for 26 years ... which sadly is far too pragmatic and conservative to change). Regards, Vasili --- Matt Gushee wrote: > On Wed, Mar 17, 2004 at 04:19:05PM -0800, Vasili > Galchin wrote: > > > > and so, those of us who have created bindings > for > > > other Posix functions > > > should > > > try to work with them to get our code merged. > This > > Eric, it sounds to me that you and I are on > the > > same page, i.e. in total agreement. What prompted > my > > posting is that I feel a tad frustrated when I > read > > code that I believe is very good (e.g. Georgi's > ipv6 > > socket code where he split socket stuff out from > > unix.ml by itself making readibility much better > and > > esaier multiple people to work and not having big > > merge problems) and I hear about other code. In > both > > cases, these new code seems to have been sitting > > around and not code reviewed and put into CVS, > where > > it should be. Also there is a danger of some > > divergence because someone will use some of this > > non-checked in code and it becomes defacto > standard. > > So, OCaml community, how do we move forward to get > > this new processed and potentially merged into the > > mainline. > > (Sorry about the grandiose title. I have nothing > suitably profound to > say ... just couldn't think of a better way to > express the subject.) > > I wonder if it is possible to persuade INRIA to do > anything. > > I have no inside information on the process at > INRIA, but my impression > from reading this list over the past year or so is: > > 1) The OCaml team at INRIA care about the > community, but there are too > few of them to meet all our needs, and I suppose > their work is also > subject to institutional pressures that we are > only vaguely aware > of. Maybe they are struggling to keep enough > resources for OCaml > work. > > 2) INRIA as an institution finds it convenient to > release OCaml as open > source, but doesn't really care about the > community. They benignly > neglect everything that doesn't relate to their > research goals. > > 3) OCaml-as-project (i.e. I'm talking about how > OCaml is developed, not > what it is) is a fragile enterprise. E.g., one > developer leaves, and > the future of Camlp4 becomes uncertain. Not > good. > > I'm not saying you should give up hope just yet, but > maybe it's time to > consider alternatives. > > What if there were an "OCaml Community Library > Project"--a group outside > INRIA that would take responsibility for extending > and perhaps partially > replacing the standard library--maybe a bit like the > current ExtLib > project, only more extensive (BTW, why are there two > ExtLibs?? One of > you change the name, please! Thank you.). Maybe if > that project showed > itself to be responsible, credible, reliable, etc. > etc., after a while > it could become the de facto standard library. > > The idealistic scenario is a division of labor > wherein INRIA continues > to develop the parts of OCaml that are interesting > to them, while other > parts (of more interest to those of us working to > create practical > and/or commercial software) would be taken over by > the community. > > I can't say whether this idea is feasible, or > whether INRIA would be > willing to go along with it, but maybe it's > something to consider. > > -- > Matt Gushee When a nation follows > the Way, > Englewood, Colorado, USA Horses bear manure > through > mgushee@havenrock.com its fields; > http://www.havenrock.com/ When a nation ignores > the Way, > Horses bear soldiers > through > its streets. > > --Lao Tzu (Peter Merel, > trans.) > > ------------------- > To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr > Archives: http://caml.inria.fr > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: > http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA32267; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:30:47 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA31868 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:30:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from mz1.forethought.net (mzpi3.forethought.net [216.241.36.12]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2K6VFKW027276 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:31:16 +0100 Received: from [216.241.35.41] (helo=swordfish) by mz1.forethought.net with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1B4a0K-0001aM-FT for caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:30:44 -0700 Received: from matt by swordfish with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4a0O-0006oA-00 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:30:48 -0700 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:30:47 -0700 From: Matt Gushee To: caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Re: Proposed community structure (was Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar) Message-ID: <20040320063047.GB26090@swordfish> Reply-To: Matt Gushee Mail-Followup-To: caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr References: <4059994E.2010802@socialtools.net> <20040318151234.B21768@pauillac.inria.fr> <1079653304.990.89.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> <405AEB1D.6040109@socialtools.net> <1079717412.1319.83.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1079717412.1319.83.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; gushee:01 mgushee:01 havenrock:01 caml-list:01 ocaml's:01 2004:99 gerd:01 stolpmann:01 gushee:01 englewood:01 manure:01 mgushee:01 havenrock:01 ignores:01 --lao:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 261 On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 06:30:12PM +0100, Gerd Stolpmann wrote: > I hope we don't need such a committee. First we should try to seek a > consensus. I suppose this will almost always be successful, and over > time we will have a situation where the voices of some people will have > more weight than the voices of others, simply because they are naturally > respected. > > So I would suggest to postpone such a committee until it is really > needed, when everything else failed. Yes. As a veteran of many committees (though in a very different context than this), I can testify that the structure and process of an organization can far too easily become an occupation in itself. If you have to decide how to form a committee, well that leads (backward) to the need to decide how to decide ... and surely one of the reasons Open Source has been so successful is that formal organization has been kept to a minimum, making it very easy for motivated people to get involved. -- Matt Gushee When a nation follows the Way, Englewood, Colorado, USA Horses bear manure through mgushee@havenrock.com its fields; http://www.havenrock.com/ When a nation ignores the Way, Horses bear soldiers through its streets. --Lao Tzu (Peter Merel, trans.) ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA00522; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:40:06 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA00320 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:40:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from mwinf0503.wanadoo.fr (smtp5.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.26]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2K6eZKW027910 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:40:35 +0100 Received: from lambda (AStrasbourg-206-1-25-146.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.188.146]) by mwinf0503.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id ECEB76800157; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:40:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by lambda with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4a9d-0001M1-00; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:40:21 +0100 Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:40:21 +0100 To: Vasili Galchin Cc: Sven Luther , james woodyatt , caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library Message-ID: <20040320064021.GA5141@lambda> References: <20040319101936.GB21455@lambda> <20040320061515.32115.qmail@web41206.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040320061515.32115.qmail@web41206.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Sven Luther X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 run-time:01 sven:01 luther:01 sven:01 luther:01 2004:99 altough:01 divert:99 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 unix:02 thread:02 wrote:03 fire:96 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 262 On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 10:15:15PM -0800, Vasili Galchin wrote: > Hi Sven, > > There is one guy, Georgi (I don't know how to say > in French only on Russian), who IMO did a very nice > job on IPV6. I personally want this stuff folded into > the OCAML source. That is why I started this thread, > i.e. to light a fire under somebody. Georgi did this > last year(!!), but still not in OCaml source base! Do you have a reference to the stuff ? Altough i don't want to divert the ocaml package too much from the official stuff, i could upload a ipv6-aware implementation to debian/experimental, or maybe just the ipv6 library. Friendly, Sven Luther ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA30602; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:49:57 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA01384 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:49:57 +0100 (MET) X-SPAM-Warning: Sending machine is listed in blackholes.five-ten-sg.com Received: from web41213.mail.yahoo.com (web41213.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.46]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i2K6oQKW028768 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:50:26 +0100 Message-ID: <20040320064955.84346.qmail@web41213.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.242.203.84] by web41213.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:49:55 PST Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:49:55 -0800 (PST) From: Vasili Galchin Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Re: Proposed community structure (was Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar) To: Matt Gushee , caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr In-Reply-To: <20040320063047.GB26090@swordfish> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 ocaml's:01 gushee:01 mgushee:01 havenrock:01 2004:99 gerd:01 stolpmann:01 gushee:01 englewood:01 manure:01 mgushee:01 havenrock:01 ignores:01 --lao:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 263 Linus Torvalds Eric Raymond ... --- Matt Gushee wrote: > On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 06:30:12PM +0100, Gerd > Stolpmann wrote: > > > I hope we don't need such a committee. First we > should try to seek a > > consensus. I suppose this will almost always be > successful, and over > > time we will have a situation where the voices of > some people will have > > more weight than the voices of others, simply > because they are naturally > > respected. > > > > So I would suggest to postpone such a committee > until it is really > > needed, when everything else failed. > > Yes. As a veteran of many committees (though in a > very different context > than this), I can testify that the structure and > process of an > organization can far too easily become an occupation > in itself. If you > have to decide how to form a committee, well that > leads (backward) to > the need to decide how to decide ... and surely one > of the reasons Open > Source has been so successful is that formal > organization has been kept > to a minimum, making it very easy for motivated > people to get involved. > > -- > Matt Gushee When a nation follows > the Way, > Englewood, Colorado, USA Horses bear manure > through > mgushee@havenrock.com its fields; > http://www.havenrock.com/ When a nation ignores > the Way, > Horses bear soldiers > through > its streets. > > --Lao Tzu (Peter Merel, > trans.) > > ------------------- > To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr > Archives: http://caml.inria.fr > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: > http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA01461; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:45:49 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA00103 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:45:48 +0100 (MET) X-SPAM-Warning: Sending machine is listed in blackholes.five-ten-sg.com Received: from web41212.mail.yahoo.com (web41212.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.45]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i2K6jkHd011780 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:45:47 +0100 Message-ID: <20040320064546.3515.qmail@web41212.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.242.203.84] by web41212.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:45:46 PST Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:45:46 -0800 (PST) From: Vasili Galchin Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library To: Sven Luther , james woodyatt Cc: Vasili Galchin , caml-list@inria.fr In-Reply-To: <20040319101936.GB21455@lambda> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 run-time:01 sven:01 gregoire:01 namespaces:01 mli:01 mli:01 gregoire:01 etu:99 2004:99 etu:99 caml-list:01 multicast:01 multicast:01 threads:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 264 Hi Sven, Here is Gregoire aka Georgi ipv6 code (oops ... maybe he is not Georgi but instead Henri) ... anyway I read it and I like what he did: 1) it seems to be complete albeit seems to be minus ipv4. Question: how to transition from ipv4 to ipv6? Or how to have ipv4 and ipv6 namespaces? 2) After I read this code then I think it makes sense to split unix.mli/unix.ml into socket.mli/socket.ml, time.mli/time.ml, etc. as Gregoire Henry has done. Regards, Vasili --- Gregoire HENRY wrote: > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:14:20 +0100 > From: Gregoire HENRY > To: Vasili Galchin > Subject: Re: [Caml-list] multicast IP added to the > Unix library > > Hello, > > > I have added so far the multicast join and > drop functionality to the unix (and threads) OCaml > library. I have tested this functionality and it > works. I do want to respect what has been > implemented in the past (very fine work). I looked > carefully at the various setsockopt functions in > unix.mli and the multicast work didn't seem to fit > easily within the bool, int, float paradigmn because > the setsockopt call for multicast passes in a > structure plus the setsockopt "level" actual > parameter is not SOL_SOCKET (i.e. we are setting > socket state at a different level, i.e. IPPROTO_IP). > Hence, I implemented as two functions, > multicast_join and multicast_drop. I, of course, > amenable to changes in what I have done. Is there a > code review process in order to get something into > the mainline of OCaml?? Please someone supply me > with details. > > I believe there is no special review process yet, > except perhaps filling a request's bug and attach > your patch : > http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > > BTW, I missed your previous mail but I make some > preliminary work > this summer on bindings OCaml with IPv6 socket > interface (RFC 3493). > In particulary, introduce a new > setsockopt_multicast. > > I would be pleased to compare with your > implementation. > You can found mine here : > http://www.pps.jussieu.fr/~henry/ip6/ > > regards, > -- Gregoire Henry --- Sven Luther wrote: > On Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 09:59:20AM -0800, james > woodyatt wrote: > > On 09 Mar 2004, at 09:30, Vasili Galchin wrote: > > > > > > I have yet to finish reading through > otherlibs/unix/unix.mli. I > > >kind of consider this POSIX API support. In any > case, is there is a > > >consensus that what is in unix.mli is complete? > Or does new > > >functionality have to be added? If so, what? > > > > I think the Unix module could be regarded as > incomplete. > > > > The tactic I have taken with this problem is to > regard the Unix library > > in the Ocaml distribution as the property of > INRIA. It has what it > > has, and it will get what INRIA decides is missing > when the INRIA team > > decides to put it there. > > > > I found the support for socket options to be > lacking. I wanted IPv6 > > I also have a bug report open against the debian > ocaml package asking > quite intently for IPv6 supoprt, also claiming ocaml > to be 'useless' to > him until it would support IPv6. > > Is there any IPv6 support planed in the near future > ? I know this > discussion did already happen, but i guess nothing > came of it back then. > > Friendly, > > Sven Luther > > ------------------- > To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr > Archives: http://caml.inria.fr > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: > http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id LAA06887; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:10:12 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA08681 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:10:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from aomori.annexia.org (annexia.force9.co.uk [212.56.101.183]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2KAAfKW011513 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:10:42 +0100 Received: from rich by aomori.annexia.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4dQY-0007n5-00; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 10:10:02 +0000 Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 10:10:02 +0000 To: Eric Stokes Cc: Ocaml Subject: ocaml.org (was: Re: [Caml-list] Structuring the Caml community (Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar)) Message-ID: <20040320101002.GA29827@redhat.com> References: <1FBC9CE8-79D8-11D8-ACC9-000A95A1E69A@csun.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1FBC9CE8-79D8-11D8-ACC9-000A95A1E69A@csun.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Richard Jones X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 ocaml's:01 2004:99 lacks:01 wiki:01 persuaded:01 dbi:99 threads:01 ltd:98 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 caml:01 structuring:02 wrote:03 library:03 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 265 On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 11:03:35AM -0800, Eric Stokes wrote: > (the index site, see #1) > http://www.ocaml.org/ > > The only area where it really lacks is the news section. The news > items are old, which makes it look like there is nothing happening > with the language community, which is in fact, not true. Perhaps a (T)Wiki? One of the TWiki core developers is in fact very interested in OCaml and might be persuaded to set something up, but it would obviously have to be part of / closely associated with the ocaml.org domain. BTW, two things about ocaml.org: (1) Who owns it? It doesn't look like it's associated with INRIA in any way (registered to someone in .AU). (2) Do you think we could set up the v-hosting correctly so that http://ocaml.org would do the right thing. This is very unprofessional and confusing. Rich. -- Richard Jones. http://www.annexia.org/ http://www.j-london.com/ Merjis Ltd. http://www.merjis.com/ - improving website return on investment PTHRLIB is a library for writing small, efficient and fast servers in C. HTTP, CGI, DBI, lightweight threads: http://www.annexia.org/freeware/pthrlib/ ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id LAA10618; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:47:30 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA10096 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:47:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from aomori.annexia.org (annexia.force9.co.uk [212.56.101.183]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2KAlSHd000483 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:47:28 +0100 Received: from rich by aomori.annexia.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4e0k-0008Cb-00; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 10:47:26 +0000 Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 10:47:26 +0000 To: Henri DF Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: ocaml.org (was: Re: [Caml-list] Structuring the Caml community (Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar)) Message-ID: <20040320104726.GA31492@redhat.com> References: <20040320101002.GA29827@redhat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Richard Jones X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 ocaml's:01 2004:99 autoconf:01 automake:01 compiles:01 rpms:01 ltd:98 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 caml:01 structuring:02 owner:97 henri:03 wrote:03 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 266 On Sat, Mar 20, 2004 at 11:44:35AM +0100, Henri DF wrote: > at some point last year when xavier leroy had asked on this list > volunteers to take over management of www.ocaml.org, i had offered to do > so, but the owner of the domain never replied.... so this never happened. This sounds like a problem then ... Rich. -- Richard Jones. http://www.annexia.org/ http://www.j-london.com/ Merjis Ltd. http://www.merjis.com/ - improving website return on investment MAKE+ is a sane replacement for GNU autoconf/automake. One script compiles, RPMs, pkgs etc. Linux, BSD, Solaris. http://www.annexia.org/freeware/makeplus/ ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id MAA11769; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 12:23:40 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA11878 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 12:23:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from rabelais.socialtools.net (rabelais.socialtools.net [81.2.94.243]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2KBNbHd004430 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 12:23:37 +0100 Received: by rabelais.socialtools.net (Postfix, from userid 108) id 21096232FE; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:23:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from socialtools.net (chaucer.socialtools.net [81.2.94.242]) by rabelais.socialtools.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADD53232FD; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:23:35 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <405C29B7.4050006@socialtools.net> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:23:35 +0000 From: Benjamin Geer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gerd Stolpmann Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Re: Proposed community structure (was Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar) References: <4059994E.2010802@socialtools.net> <20040318151234.B21768@pauillac.inria.fr> <1079653304.990.89.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> <405AEB1D.6040109@socialtools.net> <1079717412.1319.83.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> In-Reply-To: <1079717412.1319.83.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on rabelais.socialtools.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 ocaml's:01 gerd:01 stolpmann:01 gcc:01 owners:99 unicode:01 kernel:01 kernel:01 leader:97 patch:02 modules:02 unix:02 leaders:97 module:03 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 267 Gerd Stolpmann wrote: > I hope we don't need such a committee. First we should try to seek a > consensus. I suppose this will almost always be successful, and over > time we will have a situation where the voices of some people will have > more weight than the voices of others, simply because they are naturally > respected. > > So I would suggest to postpone such a committee until it is really > needed, when everything else failed. OK. I think eventually, though, we will need an explicit process for resolving conflicts. On some projects, the process is simply that when there is a conflict, the leader makes a decision. Good free-software project leaders are mainly people whose judgement is respected, and who are good at mediating between people with conflicting opinions. I don't think we have one single person who would clearly be the best one for that role, so I suggested a group, which seems to work well for GCC. Another way is to vote, as Debian does. But you can't vote every day; there still need to be people who are trusted by the community to settle important questions. In Mozilla, these are module owners and super-reviewers. > GODI currently has packages which are comparable with modules. Every > package has a maintainer. Initially, the maintainer is the person who > adds the package to the repository. What concerns me is that we could end up with redundant packages in the repository. I think it would be awful to have five different competing versions of the Unix module or the List module, or five different attempts to implement Unicode support. I think the structure of the project should require people to pool their efforts. On the Linux kernel, this is done very simply: since people working on the same problem know that only one patch will be accepted into the official kernel, they have a strong incentive to cooperate. If they can't cooperate because their work is too different, Linus chooses what he thinks is the better solution. This works because Linus takes into account the consensus of the community, but I don't think it would work without Linus, or without a Linus-like process. > I simply believe that a good practise of cooperation is better than > formal rules. Not everyone knows how to cooperate well. It may be better to say explicitly what a good practice of cooperation is. Ben ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id MAA12172; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 12:29:53 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA12262 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 12:29:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from rabelais.socialtools.net (rabelais.socialtools.net [81.2.94.243]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2KBToHd005089 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 12:29:50 +0100 Received: by rabelais.socialtools.net (Postfix, from userid 108) id 71182232FE; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:29:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from socialtools.net (chaucer.socialtools.net [81.2.94.242]) by rabelais.socialtools.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61EEF232FD; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:29:49 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <405C2B2D.3010900@socialtools.net> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:29:49 +0000 From: Benjamin Geer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matt Gushee Cc: caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) References: <07FEC955-782B-11D8-850C-000A957FFA4A@csun.edu> <20040318001905.36025.qmail@web41206.mail.yahoo.com> <20040318085638.GA11753@swordfish> <20040318185723.GE27866@speakeasy.org> <20040320061248.GA26090@swordfish> In-Reply-To: <20040320061248.GA26090@swordfish> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on rabelais.socialtools.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 gushee:01 namespaces:01 foo:01 extlib:01 foo:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 caml:01 caml:01 unix:02 module:03 module:03 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 268 Matt Gushee wrote: >>High on my wish-list for the core ocaml system is >>namespaces or something similiar to help resolve this problem. > > Agreed. Even in my fairly short time programming OCaml, I've had to > struggle several times to find a good name for a module. What I'd like is to be able to create a unique name for a project, and then use it as a namespace containing non-unique module names. For example, I use the domain saucecode.org for my Caml work. I'd like to be able to create a Saucecode namespace, and within it create module names representing libraries, without worrying about whether those names are unique in the whole Caml community. So a user could use my Saucecode.Foo module, and someone else's Extlib.Foo module, without any conflict. Today I can create a Saucecode module with a Foo module inside it, but I can only define Saucecode once. That means that I would have to package all my libraries as a single download, and anyone who wanted to use one library would have to use them all. Be ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id OAA17249; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 14:09:06 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA17154 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 14:09:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay.rinet.ru (relay.rinet.ru [195.54.192.35]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2KD94Hd015834 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 14:09:05 +0100 Received: from relay.rinet.ru (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.rinet.ru (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i2KD94it008093 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 16:09:04 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from dbely@mail.ru) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by relay.rinet.ru (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) with UUCP id i2KD946s008092 for caml-list@inria.fr; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 16:09:04 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from dbely@mail.ru) Received: from (ROVER1) [192.168.0.129] by stormoff with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1B4gDc-0007Qn-00; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 16:08:53 +0300 X-Comment-To: Gerd Stolpmann To: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: [Caml-list] Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar References: <4059994E.2010802@socialtools.net> <20040318151234.B21768@pauillac.inria.fr> <1079653304.990.89.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> From: Dmitry Bely Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 16:07:04 +0300 In-Reply-To: <1079653304.990.89.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> (Gerd Stolpmann's message of "Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:41:45 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090008 (Oort Gnus v0.08) XEmacs/21.4 (Military Intelligence (RC5 Windows), i586-pc-win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 gerd:01 stolpmann:01 findlib:01 findlib:01 cpan:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 dmitry:01 dmitry:01 writes:01 bely:01 bely:01 match:02 dbely:02 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 269 Gerd Stolpmann writes: > Of course, the Bazaar needs a bit more organisation, and as you know, I > wrote software supporting this: Findlib and GODI. Findlib is mature > software, even from a professional point of view, and many people are > already using it. GODI is already usable. So the technical solutions > exist (that means: THERE IS A CPAN FOR OCAML, although it uses a > different implementation for a different language, and does not match > C.*AN), and the remaining question is: Does the community accept it? Do you know if anybody tried to build GODI under Windows? Is it theoretically possible? If not, GODI can hardly be considered as a _standard_ solution to distribute Ocaml packages... - Dmitry Bely ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id OAA17965; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 14:18:39 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA17553 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 14:18:37 +0100 (MET) X-SPAM-Warning: Sending machine is listed in blackholes.five-ten-sg.com Received: from oxy.exomi.com (ua183d70hel.dial.kolumbus.fi [62.248.249.183]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2KDJ0KW027695 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 14:19:05 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by oxy.exomi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8277C182DE3; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 15:19:01 +0200 (EET) In-Reply-To: <20040320064955.84346.qmail@web41213.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040320064955.84346.qmail@web41213.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <26991CF8-7A71-11D8-966B-000393863F70@exomi.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Matt Gushee , caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr From: Ville-Pertti Keinonen Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Re: Proposed community structure (was Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 15:19:00 +0200 To: Vasili Galchin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 ocaml's:01 gcc:01 gcc:01 model:01 model:01 kernel:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 imho:01 groups:01 wrote:03 library:03 sufficient:04 cathedral:95 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 270 On Mar 20, 2004, at 8:49 AM, Vasili Galchin wrote: I'm not sure what you're presenting these names as examples of, but IMHO... > Linus Torvalds He's done good job maintaining the Linux kernel, but maybe wouldn't be that good of a compiler-writer (probably just lack of experience in that area), see e.g.: http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2002-08/msg00544.html The single lead developer model is a good development model, though. > Eric Raymond ... It's nice to have someone extroverted speak for you when you agree with him, but people who feel a need to insult those that don't agree with them (see http://www.catb.org/~esr/aim/ for a non-technical example) are probably not the most trustworthy community-builders... If anything, the OCaml developers seem like one of the most reasonable groups of developers I've seen (not that I've actually seen any of them in person). The core works well, and its development methods seem to be working. As for the community/library side...planning on committees or on the lack thereof is probably premature. Successful communities don't seem to organize by planning, but by accident. Once there is sufficient weight behind the effort, that's when it should be evident what needs to be adjusted; nothing needs to be set in stone from the start. Personally, I don't think becoming popular is important, or that something has failed if it doesn't. Besides, OCaml actually already seems to be gaining quite a bit of attention. ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id QAA22453; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 16:55:43 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA23940 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 16:55:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.186]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2KFtfHd031542 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 16:55:41 +0100 Received: from [212.227.126.160] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1B4ip3-0003bM-00; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 16:55:41 +0100 Received: from [80.129.113.18] (helo=gate.gerd-stolpmann.de) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1B4ip2-00088a-00; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 16:55:40 +0100 Received: from ice.gerd-stolpmann.de (ice.gerd-stolpmann.de [192.168.0.13]) by gate.gerd-stolpmann.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD0956B4; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 16:55:40 +0100 (CET) Received: by ice.gerd-stolpmann.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 91462B032; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 16:55:39 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar From: Gerd Stolpmann To: caml-list@inria.fr Cc: Dmitry Bely In-Reply-To: References: <4059994E.2010802@socialtools.net> <20040318151234.B21768@pauillac.inria.fr> <1079653304.990.89.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1079798138.1280.162.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 16:55:39 +0100 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:a6865a839c0178d9aa0ce41878507ea2 X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 ocaml's:01 gerd:01 stolpmann:01 2004:99 gerd:01 stolpmann:01 findlib:01 findlib:01 cpan:01 cygwin:01 mingw:01 viktoriastr:01 64293:01 darmstadt:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 271 On Sam, 2004-03-20 at 14:07, Dmitry Bely wrote: > Gerd Stolpmann writes: > > > Of course, the Bazaar needs a bit more organisation, and as you know, I > > wrote software supporting this: Findlib and GODI. Findlib is mature > > software, even from a professional point of view, and many people are > > already using it. GODI is already usable. So the technical solutions > > exist (that means: THERE IS A CPAN FOR OCAML, although it uses a > > different implementation for a different language, and does not match > > C.*AN), and the remaining question is: Does the community accept it? > > Do you know if anybody tried to build GODI under Windows? Is it > theoretically possible? If not, GODI can hardly be considered as a _standard_ > solution to distribute Ocaml packages... There is a development version that almost works on the Cygwin port. This means it bootstraps, and it can build various packages, but there are some Windows-specific problems with file locking that must still be solved. I hope I can do this soon. For thoughts on a MinGW port, see this message: http://caml.inria.fr/archives/200403/msg00235.html Gerd -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Gerd Stolpmann * Viktoriastr. 45 * 64293 Darmstadt * Germany gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id RAA26276; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 17:46:31 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA27125 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 17:46:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.188]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2KGkSHd003626 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 17:46:29 +0100 Received: from [212.227.126.160] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1B4jcC-0003CR-00; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 17:46:28 +0100 Received: from [80.129.113.18] (helo=gate.gerd-stolpmann.de) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1B4jcC-0003UN-00; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 17:46:28 +0100 Received: from ice.gerd-stolpmann.de (ice.gerd-stolpmann.de [192.168.0.13]) by gate.gerd-stolpmann.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id C750F56B4; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 17:46:27 +0100 (CET) Received: by ice.gerd-stolpmann.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E6187B032; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 17:46:26 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Re: Proposed community structure (was Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar) From: Gerd Stolpmann To: Benjamin Geer Cc: caml-list@inria.fr In-Reply-To: <405C29B7.4050006@socialtools.net> References: <4059994E.2010802@socialtools.net> <20040318151234.B21768@pauillac.inria.fr> <1079653304.990.89.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> <405AEB1D.6040109@socialtools.net> <1079717412.1319.83.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> <405C29B7.4050006@socialtools.net> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1079801186.1310.209.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 17:46:26 +0100 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:a6865a839c0178d9aa0ce41878507ea2 X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 ocaml's:01 gerd:01 stolpmann:01 2004:99 gerd:01 stolpmann:01 gcc:01 owners:99 ocamlnet:01 camomile:01 ocamlnet:01 camomile:01 incompatible:01 cleanup:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 272 On Sam, 2004-03-20 at 12:23, Benjamin Geer wrote: > Gerd Stolpmann wrote: > > I hope we don't need such a committee. First we should try to seek a > > consensus. I suppose this will almost always be successful, and over > > time we will have a situation where the voices of some people will have > > more weight than the voices of others, simply because they are naturally > > respected. > > > > So I would suggest to postpone such a committee until it is really > > needed, when everything else failed. > > OK. I think eventually, though, we will need an explicit process for > resolving conflicts. > > On some projects, the process is simply that when there is a conflict, > the leader makes a decision. Good free-software project leaders are > mainly people whose judgement is respected, and who are good at > mediating between people with conflicting opinions. I don't think we > have one single person who would clearly be the best one for that role, > so I suggested a group, which seems to work well for GCC. > > Another way is to vote, as Debian does. But you can't vote every day; > there still need to be people who are trusted by the community to settle > important questions. In Mozilla, these are module owners and > super-reviewers. All these projects you mention are much larger, and there are stronger interests involved that want to push the whole group into certain directions. In the short term, we will certainly not face these problems. In the long run, however, it might turn out that we will need some formalism. I think it is not a good idea to think about it _now_, because nobody has here enough experience to say which kind of formalism would be a good one. So I think this discussion has no real basis. > > GODI currently has packages which are comparable with modules. Every > > package has a maintainer. Initially, the maintainer is the person who > > adds the package to the repository. > > What concerns me is that we could end up with redundant packages in the > repository. I think it would be awful to have five different competing > versions of the Unix module or the List module, or five different > attempts to implement Unicode support. On the one hand, we have this situation already. For example, both ocamlnet and camomile implement aspects of Unicode, but with different intentions (ocamlnet targets at network protocols, camomile at applications). There are also a lot of incompatible database interfaces. Of course, it would be nice to have some cleanup here. On the other hand, it is problematic to enforce cooperation. If GODI tried to do that, it might happen that GODI loses overall acceptance. So I would suggest to support any such cooperation, but not to try to make pressure. In my opinion, the first goal of GODI is to get accepted by distributing software that already exists, no matter whether there are parallel solution to the same area. It may happen over time that the need for selection arises, but let us see how this can be handled. > I think the structure of the > project should require people to pool their efforts. On the Linux > kernel, this is done very simply: since people working on the same > problem know that only one patch will be accepted into the official > kernel, they have a strong incentive to cooperate. If they can't > cooperate because their work is too different, Linus chooses what he > thinks is the better solution. This works because Linus takes into > account the consensus of the community, but I don't think it would work > without Linus, or without a Linus-like process. GODI is more comparable to a Linux distribution than to Linux. > > I simply believe that a good practise of cooperation is better than > > formal rules. > > Not everyone knows how to cooperate well. It may be better to say > explicitly what a good practice of cooperation is. IMO, the normal principles apply that everybody would expect: - Communicate the changes you are doing - Respect the work of others - Don't put in a selfish way your own interests over those of the whole group You see, these are principles, and by nature, they are quite vague. This is why I prefer the term "good practise", because it is better to see by example how general norms are applied to real matters. I am not afraid of different views on these matters and maybe conflicts that may arise, because I feel myself able to remind people of general principles that should be respected, and believe that people can act in a reasonable way. Gerd -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Gerd Stolpmann * Viktoriastr. 45 * 64293 Darmstadt * Germany gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id UAA32464; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:03:18 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA32408 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:03:16 +0100 (MET) X-SPAM-Warning: Sending machine is listed in blackholes.five-ten-sg.com Received: from web41204.mail.yahoo.com (web41204.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.37]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i2KJ3kKW022130 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:03:47 +0100 Message-ID: <20040320190314.41744.qmail@web41204.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.242.201.78] by web41204.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:03:14 PST Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:03:14 -0800 (PST) From: Vasili Galchin Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Re: Proposed community structure (was Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar) To: Ville-Pertti Keinonen Cc: Matt Gushee , caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr In-Reply-To: <26991CF8-7A71-11D8-966B-000393863F70@exomi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 ocaml's:01 ocaml's:01 gcc:01 gcc:01 model:01 model:01 bug:01 faq:01 faq:01 beginner's:01 beginners:01 bin:01 kernel:01 caml-bugs:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 274 Hello, The reason I mention these two names is because we started to "OCaml's Cathedral and Bazaar" metaphor on this thread. I am not saying these guy are panacea. I am merely saying that OCaml seems to be somewhat directionless and there are a lot of loose ends, e.g. existing code that has not been incorporated into the mainstream. On the other hand, there are also a lot of very talented people working on/using OCaml. I would sincerely like to see OCaml get more into industry. Regards, Vasili --- Ville-Pertti Keinonen wrote: > > On Mar 20, 2004, at 8:49 AM, Vasili Galchin wrote: > > I'm not sure what you're presenting these names as > examples of, but > IMHO... > > > Linus Torvalds > > He's done good job maintaining the Linux kernel, but > maybe wouldn't be > that good of a compiler-writer (probably just lack > of experience in > that area), see e.g.: > > http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2002-08/msg00544.html > > The single lead developer model is a good > development model, though. > > > Eric Raymond ... > > It's nice to have someone extroverted speak for you > when you agree with > him, but people who feel a need to insult those that > don't agree with > them (see http://www.catb.org/~esr/aim/ for a > non-technical example) > are probably not the most trustworthy > community-builders... > > If anything, the OCaml developers seem like one of > the most reasonable > groups of developers I've seen (not that I've > actually seen any of them > in person). The core works well, and its > development methods seem to > be working. > > As for the community/library side...planning on > committees or on the > lack thereof is probably premature. Successful > communities don't seem > to organize by planning, but by accident. Once > there is sufficient > weight behind the effort, that's when it should be > evident what needs > to be adjusted; nothing needs to be set in stone > from the start. > > Personally, I don't think becoming popular is > important, or that > something has failed if it doesn't. Besides, OCaml > actually already > seems to be gaining quite a bit of attention. > > ------------------- > To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr > Archives: http://caml.inria.fr > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: > http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id VAA01005; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:09:52 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA02200 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:09:51 +0100 (MET) From: brogoff@speakeasy.net Received: from mail3.speakeasy.net (mail3.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.203]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2KKAKKW027357 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:10:21 +0100 Received: (qmail 13224 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2004 20:09:48 -0000 Received: from grace.speakeasy.net ([216.254.0.22]) (envelope-sender ) by mail3.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 20 Mar 2004 20:09:48 -0000 Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 12:09:47 -0800 (PST) To: Gerd Stolpmann cc: caml-list@inria.fr, Dmitry Bely Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar In-Reply-To: <1079798138.1280.162.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> Message-ID: References: <4059994E.2010802@socialtools.net> <20040318151234.B21768@pauillac.inria.fr> <1079653304.990.89.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> <1079798138.1280.162.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; brogoff:01 caml-list:01 ocaml's:01 gerd:01 stolpmann:01 2004:99 cygwin:01 implicitly:01 cygwin:01 mingw:01 mingw:01 ocaml:01 speakeasy:01 dmitry:01 bely:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 275 On Sat, 20 Mar 2004, Gerd Stolpmann wrote: > On Sam, 2004-03-20 at 14:07, Dmitry Bely wrote: > > Do you know if anybody tried to build GODI under Windows? Is it > > theoretically possible? If not, GODI can hardly be considered as a _standard_ > > solution to distribute Ocaml packages... > > There is a development version that almost works on the Cygwin port. > This means it bootstraps, and it can build various packages, but there > are some Windows-specific problems with file locking that must still be > solved. I hope I can do this soon. I haven't done any serious Windows programming in several years, but when I did, building on Windows implicitly meant "with the MS toolchain" and emphatically *not* with Cygwin, MinGW, etc. Certainly, a Cygwin or MinGW port is a good step, but unless the Windows world has changed, not having a Windows GODI in the sense I describe above will be a hindrance to acceptance. -- Brian ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id KAA31911; Sun, 21 Mar 2004 10:09:14 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA32439 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2004 10:09:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.203]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2L999Hd027742 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2004 10:09:11 +0100 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp114-118.lns1.syd3.internode.on.net [150.101.114.118]) by smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i2L995UK094808; Sun, 21 Mar 2004 19:39:07 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) From: skaller Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net To: Issac Trotts Cc: caml-list In-Reply-To: <20040319123448.GA21075@mallorn> References: <20040318184118.GC702@first.in-berlin.de> <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> <20040318232039.GA1912@redhat.com> <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> <20040319085819.GB9616@redhat.com> <20040319091334.GB20532@lambda> <405AC57A.1090300@baretta.com> <20040319101741.GA21455@lambda> <405ADE38.1080509@socialtools.net> <20040319123448.GA21075@mallorn> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1079860439.12190.32.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 21 Mar 2004 20:13:59 +1100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 sourceforge:01 2004:99 issac:01 trotts:01 automates:01 ijtrotts:01 glue:01 pelican:01 ijtrotts:01 9660:01 glebe:01 bin:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 280 On Fri, 2004-03-19 at 23:34, Issac Trotts wrote: > After taking the time to modify the compiler, it's probably not too hard > to write a little script that automates the process of applying a patch, > something like this: > > #/bin/sh > wget -c http://mallorn.ucdavis.edu/~ijtrotts/software/ocaml-install.sh Not too hard?? I'm really sick of glue and sticky tape: [skaller@pelican] ~>wget -c http://mallorn.ucdavis.edu/~ijtrotts/software/ocaml-install.sh --20:12:34-- http://mallorn.ucdavis.edu/%7Eijtrotts/software/ocaml-install.sh => `ocaml-install.sh' Resolving mallorn.ucdavis.edu... done. Connecting to mallorn.ucdavis.edu[128.120.141.141]:80... connected. HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found 20:12:35 ERROR 404: Not Found. -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id VAA24776; Sun, 21 Mar 2004 21:05:22 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA24488 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2004 21:05:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2LK5IHd020009 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2004 21:05:19 +0100 Received: from manzanita (c-24-8-81-173.client.comcast.net[24.8.81.173]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004032120051701200abr75e>; Sun, 21 Mar 2004 20:05:17 +0000 Received: by manzanita (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:05:10 -0800 From: "Issac Trotts" Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:05:10 -0800 To: skaller Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040321200510.GD1416@manzanita> Mail-Followup-To: ijtrotts@ucdavis.edu, skaller , caml-list@inria.fr References: <200403182010.i2IKAK1a008157@nerd-xing.mit.edu> <20040318232039.GA1912@redhat.com> <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> <20040319085819.GB9616@redhat.com> <20040319091334.GB20532@lambda> <405AC57A.1090300@baretta.com> <20040319101741.GA21455@lambda> <405ADE38.1080509@socialtools.net> <20040319123448.GA21075@mallorn> <1079860439.12190.32.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1079860439.12190.32.camel@pelican.wigram> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; issac:01 trotts:01 ijtrotts:01 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 1100,:01 2004:99 issac:01 trotts:01 automates:01 ijtrotts:01 glue:01 pelican:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 286 On Sun, Mar 21, 2004 at 08:13:59PM +1100, skaller wrote: > On Fri, 2004-03-19 at 23:34, Issac Trotts wrote: > > > After taking the time to modify the compiler, it's probably not too hard > > to write a little script that automates the process of applying a patch, > > something like this: > > > > #/bin/sh > > wget -c http://mallorn.ucdavis.edu/~ijtrotts/software/ocaml-install.sh > > Not too hard?? > > I'm really sick of glue and sticky tape: > > > [skaller@pelican] ~>wget -c > http://mallorn.ucdavis.edu/~ijtrotts/software/ocaml-install.sh > --20:12:34-- > http://mallorn.ucdavis.edu/%7Eijtrotts/software/ocaml-install.sh > => `ocaml-install.sh' > Resolving mallorn.ucdavis.edu... done. > Connecting to mallorn.ucdavis.edu[128.120.141.141]:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found > 20:12:35 ERROR 404: Not Found. Thanks for pointing out my typo. I put up a symbolic link from ocaml-install.sh to install-ocaml.sh so now it should work. -- Issac Trotts http://redwood.ucdavis.edu/~issac ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id WAA26633; Sun, 21 Mar 2004 22:11:27 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA27037 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2004 22:11:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from biscayne-one-station.mit.edu (BISCAYNE-ONE-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.80]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2LLBwKW006926 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2004 22:11:58 +0100 Received: from melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (MELBOURNE-CITY-STREET.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.86]) by biscayne-one-station.mit.edu (8.12.4/8.9.2) with ESMTP id i2LLBObA002478; Sun, 21 Mar 2004 16:11:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from psi-phi.mit.edu (PSI-PHI.MIT.EDU [18.187.1.35]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as jfc@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id i2LLBNTC006216; Sun, 21 Mar 2004 16:11:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from jfc@localhost) by psi-phi.mit.edu (8.12.9) id i2LLBNTS003306; Sun, 21 Mar 2004 16:11:23 -0500 Message-Id: <200403212111.i2LLBNTS003306@psi-phi.mit.edu> To: Sven Luther cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:12:33 +0100." <20040319151233.GA26339@lambda> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 16:11:23 -0500 From: John Carr X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 jfc:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 consortium:01 consortium:01 unix:02 obligation:97 library:03 cathedral:95 carr:05 completeness:93 paid:91 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 287 > So, how is that different participating in the Ocaml Consortium, and > thus making sure someone is paid to do the things you need ? Or is payng > for one thing ok, but not for the other ? I read the OCaml Consortium contract and it is not a support contract as far as I can tell. Does Inria have an obligation to fix bugs reported by members? ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA17832; Mon, 22 Mar 2004 07:46:11 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA17758 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2004 07:46:10 +0100 (MET) X-SPAM-Warning: Sending machine is listed in blackholes.five-ten-sg.com Received: from mwinf0804.wanadoo.fr (smtp8.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.23]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2M6kgKW019742 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2004 07:46:42 +0100 Received: from lambda (AStrasbourg-206-1-37-235.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.64.235]) by mwinf0804.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 247EF180005C; Mon, 22 Mar 2004 07:46:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by lambda with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B5JCK-0000io-00; Mon, 22 Mar 2004 07:46:08 +0100 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 07:46:08 +0100 To: John Carr Cc: Sven Luther , caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040322064608.GA2717@lambda> References: <20040319151233.GA26339@lambda> <200403212111.i2LLBNTS003306@psi-phi.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200403212111.i2LLBNTS003306@psi-phi.mit.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Sven Luther X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 sven:01 luther:01 sven:01 luther:01 2004:99 bug:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 consortium:01 consortium:01 unix:02 obligation:97 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 297 On Sun, Mar 21, 2004 at 04:11:23PM -0500, John Carr wrote: > > > So, how is that different participating in the Ocaml Consortium, and > > thus making sure someone is paid to do the things you need ? Or is payng > > for one thing ok, but not for the other ? > > I read the OCaml Consortium contract and it is not a support > contract as far as I can tell. Does Inria have an obligation > to fix bugs reported by members? I believe the ocaml team will fix bug all the same, even if they have no contract with you. That is the difference between a serious developer team, and folk only there to milk money from you, like microsoft. Friendly, Sven Luther ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA18371; Mon, 22 Mar 2004 07:52:15 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA17588 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2004 07:52:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2M6qkKW020247 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2004 07:52:46 +0100 Received: from manzanita (c-24-8-81-173.client.comcast.net[24.8.81.173]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004032206521101100icec1e>; Mon, 22 Mar 2004 06:52:12 +0000 Received: by manzanita (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 21 Mar 2004 22:51:58 -0800 From: "Issac Trotts" Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 22:51:58 -0800 To: skaller Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040322065158.GA1484@manzanita> Mail-Followup-To: ijtrotts@ucdavis.edu, skaller , caml-list@inria.fr References: <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> <20040319085819.GB9616@redhat.com> <20040319091334.GB20532@lambda> <405AC57A.1090300@baretta.com> <20040319101741.GA21455@lambda> <405ADE38.1080509@socialtools.net> <20040319123448.GA21075@mallorn> <1079860439.12190.32.camel@pelican.wigram> <20040321200510.GD1416@manzanita> <1079927683.3165.73.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1079927683.3165.73.camel@pelican.wigram> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; issac:01 trotts:01 ijtrotts:01 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 1100,:01 2004:99 issac:01 trotts:01 1100,:01 glue:01 pelican:01 ijtrotts:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 298 On Mon, Mar 22, 2004 at 02:54:44PM +1100, skaller wrote: > On Mon, 2004-03-22 at 07:05, Issac Trotts wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 21, 2004 at 08:13:59PM +1100, skaller wrote: > > > > I'm really sick of glue and sticky tape: > > > > > > > > > [skaller@pelican] ~>wget -c > > > http://mallorn.ucdavis.edu/~ijtrotts/software/ocaml-install.sh > > > --20:12:34-- > > > http://mallorn.ucdavis.edu/%7Eijtrotts/software/ocaml-install.sh > > > => `ocaml-install.sh' > > > Resolving mallorn.ucdavis.edu... done. > > > Connecting to mallorn.ucdavis.edu[128.120.141.141]:80... connected. > > > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found > > > 20:12:35 ERROR 404: Not Found. > > > > Thanks for pointing out my typo. I put up a symbolic link from > > ocaml-install.sh to install-ocaml.sh so now it should work. > > Now it hangs trying to connect ;( The server seems to be down. I'm on a trip and can't bring it back up right now, so please try this instead: http://redwood.ucdavis.edu/~issac/software/install-ocaml.sh -- Issac Trotts http://redwood.ucdavis.edu/~issac ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id UAA10095; Tue, 23 Mar 2004 20:43:51 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA08785 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2004 20:43:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.181]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2NJiLKW003807 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2004 20:44:23 +0100 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp114-118.lns1.syd3.internode.on.net [150.101.114.118]) by smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i2NJhgwn045215; Wed, 24 Mar 2004 06:13:44 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) From: skaller Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net To: Issac Trotts Cc: skaller , caml-list In-Reply-To: <20040322065158.GA1484@manzanita> References: <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> <20040319085819.GB9616@redhat.com> <20040319091334.GB20532@lambda> <405AC57A.1090300@baretta.com> <20040319101741.GA21455@lambda> <405ADE38.1080509@socialtools.net> <20040319123448.GA21075@mallorn> <1079860439.12190.32.camel@pelican.wigram> <20040321200510.GD1416@manzanita> <1079927683.3165.73.camel@pelican.wigram> <20040322065158.GA1484@manzanita> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1080071325.4708.58.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 24 Mar 2004 06:48:47 +1100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 sourceforge:01 2004:99 issac:01 trotts:01 redwood:99 issac:01 9660:01 glebe:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 nsw:01 snail:02 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 334 On Mon, 2004-03-22 at 17:51, Issac Trotts wrote: > The server seems to be down. I'm on a trip and can't bring it back up > right now, so please try this instead: > > http://redwood.ucdavis.edu/~issac/software/install-ocaml.sh OK! This works .. its compiling Ocaml now .. .. hmmm .. but i actually want to use the CVS version of Ocaml rather than an official release .. is there a way to tell GODI about using CVS instead of FTPing a tarball? -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id XAA17959; Tue, 23 Mar 2004 23:16:39 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA17793 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2004 23:16:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.171]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2NMGbHd003393 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2004 23:16:37 +0100 Received: from [212.227.126.160] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1B5uCL-0003Nj-00; Tue, 23 Mar 2004 23:16:37 +0100 Received: from [80.129.101.91] (helo=gate.gerd-stolpmann.de) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1B5uCK-0000H5-00; Tue, 23 Mar 2004 23:16:37 +0100 Received: from ice.gerd-stolpmann.de (ice.gerd-stolpmann.de [192.168.0.13]) by gate.gerd-stolpmann.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7435556B4; Tue, 23 Mar 2004 23:16:32 +0100 (CET) Received: by ice.gerd-stolpmann.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5B718B032; Tue, 23 Mar 2004 23:16:29 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) From: Gerd Stolpmann To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net Cc: caml-list In-Reply-To: <1080071325.4708.58.camel@pelican.wigram> References: <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> <20040319085819.GB9616@redhat.com> <20040319091334.GB20532@lambda> <405AC57A.1090300@baretta.com> <20040319101741.GA21455@lambda> <405ADE38.1080509@socialtools.net> <20040319123448.GA21075@mallorn> <1079860439.12190.32.camel@pelican.wigram> <20040321200510.GD1416@manzanita> <1079927683.3165.73.camel@pelican.wigram> <20040322065158.GA1484@manzanita> <1080071325.4708.58.camel@pelican.wigram> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1080080187.967.0.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 23:16:28 +0100 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:a6865a839c0178d9aa0ce41878507ea2 X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 gerd:01 stolpmann:01 2004:99 2004:99 issac:01 trotts:01 redwood:99 issac:01 gerd:01 stolpmann:01 viktoriastr:01 64293:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 339 On Die, 2004-03-23 at 20:48, skaller wrote: > On Mon, 2004-03-22 at 17:51, Issac Trotts wrote: > > > The server seems to be down. I'm on a trip and can't bring it back up > > right now, so please try this instead: > > > > http://redwood.ucdavis.edu/~issac/software/install-ocaml.sh > > OK! This works .. its compiling Ocaml now .. > > .. hmmm .. but i actually want to use the CVS version of Ocaml > rather than an official release .. is there a way to tell GODI > about using CVS instead of FTPing a tarball? Not yet. This is something on my todo list. Gerd -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Gerd Stolpmann * Viktoriastr. 45 * 64293 Darmstadt * Germany gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id IAA14632; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 08:37:34 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA16482 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 08:37:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from bob.west.spy.net (mail.west.spy.net [66.149.231.226]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i336cFjq016475 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 08:38:16 +0200 Received: from [192.168.1.50] (dustinti.west.spy.net [192.168.1.50]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by bob.west.spy.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 330485DCE; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 22:37:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1080071325.4708.58.camel@pelican.wigram> References: <20040319103054F.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> <20040319085819.GB9616@redhat.com> <20040319091334.GB20532@lambda> <405AC57A.1090300@baretta.com> <20040319101741.GA21455@lambda> <405ADE38.1080509@socialtools.net> <20040319123448.GA21075@mallorn> <1079860439.12190.32.camel@pelican.wigram> <20040321200510.GD1416@manzanita> <1079927683.3165.73.camel@pelican.wigram> <20040322065158.GA1484@manzanita> <1080071325.4708.58.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <49501D40-8539-11D8-9F50-000A957659CC@spy.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Issac Trotts , caml-list From: Dustin Sallings Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 22:36:49 -0800 To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 cae:99 ocaml:01 her:97 unix:02 wrote:03 library:03 cathedral:95 fingerprint:04 tarball:05 hmmm:05 cvs:05 cvs:05 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 46 On Mar 23, 2004, at 11:48, skaller wrote: > .. hmmm .. but i actually want to use the CVS version of Ocaml > rather than an official release .. is there a way to tell GODI > about using CVS instead of FTPing a tarball? [mumble something about gnuarch making the world a better place] -- SPY My girlfriend asked me which one I like better. pub 1024/3CAE01D5 1994/11/03 Dustin Sallings | Key fingerprint = 87 02 57 08 02 D0 DA D6 C8 0F 3E 65 51 98 D8 BE L_______________________ I hope the answer won't upset her. ____________ ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id JAA19895; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 09:44:14 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA19905 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 09:44:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from calmail-cl.berkeley.edu (mailfarm.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.61.106]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i337iBYM029672 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 09:44:12 +0200 Received: from [64.162.212.212] (HELO tallman.kefka.frap.net) by calmail-cl.berkeley.edu (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with SMTP id 12549394 for caml-list@inria.fr; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 23:44:11 -0800 Received: by tallman.kefka.frap.net (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Fri, 2 Apr 2004 23:43:47 -0800 Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 23:43:47 -0800 From: Kenneth Knowles To: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040403074346.GA20705@tallman.kefka.frap.net> References: <405AC57A.1090300@baretta.com> <20040319101741.GA21455@lambda> <405ADE38.1080509@socialtools.net> <20040319123448.GA21075@mallorn> <1079860439.12190.32.camel@pelican.wigram> <20040321200510.GD1416@manzanita> <1079927683.3165.73.camel@pelican.wigram> <20040322065158.GA1484@manzanita> <1080071325.4708.58.camel@pelican.wigram> <49501D40-8539-11D8-9F50-000A957659CC@spy.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <49501D40-8539-11D8-9F50-000A957659CC@spy.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; knowles:99 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 ocaml:01 complexity:02 unix:02 wrote:03 wrote:03 library:03 cathedral:95 0800,:04 tarball:05 hmmm:05 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 47 On Fri, Apr 02, 2004 at 10:36:49PM -0800, Dustin Sallings wrote: > > On Mar 23, 2004, at 11:48, skaller wrote: > > >.. hmmm .. but i actually want to use the CVS version of Ocaml > >rather than an official release .. is there a way to tell GODI > >about using CVS instead of FTPing a tarball? > > [mumble something about gnuarch making the world a better place] [mumble something about DARCS being a generalization of the same concepts with a fraction of the complexity] ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id JAA14387; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:51:21 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA14372 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:51:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from bob.west.spy.net (mail.west.spy.net [66.149.231.226]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i357pDYM015009 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:51:16 +0200 Received: from [192.168.1.50] (dustinti.west.spy.net [192.168.1.50]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by bob.west.spy.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBB935DF3; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 00:51:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20040403074346.GA20705@tallman.kefka.frap.net> References: <405AC57A.1090300@baretta.com> <20040319101741.GA21455@lambda> <405ADE38.1080509@socialtools.net> <20040319123448.GA21075@mallorn> <1079860439.12190.32.camel@pelican.wigram> <20040321200510.GD1416@manzanita> <1079927683.3165.73.camel@pelican.wigram> <20040322065158.GA1484@manzanita> <1080071325.4708.58.camel@pelican.wigram> <49501D40-8539-11D8-9F50-000A957659CC@spy.net> <20040403074346.GA20705@tallman.kefka.frap.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: caml-list@inria.fr From: Dustin Sallings Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 00:50:28 -0700 To: Kenneth Knowles X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 knowles:99 cae:99 ocaml:01 complexity:02 her:97 arch:02 arch:02 unix:02 wrote:03 library:03 cathedral:95 cathedral:95 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 51 On Apr 2, 2004, at 23:43, Kenneth Knowles wrote: >>> .. hmmm .. but i actually want to use the CVS version of Ocaml >>> rather than an official release .. is there a way to tell GODI >>> about using CVS instead of FTPing a tarball? >> >> [mumble something about gnuarch making the world a better place] > > [mumble something about DARCS being a generalization of the same > concepts with a > fraction of the complexity] I'm hoping to get darcs built so I can play with it soon. The main point is decentralizing all of this stuff so people can work on new concepts without losing track of head-of-line (or anyone else's branch). My point is that arch was designed to solve problems like the above. darcs seems to have a lot in common with arch (but doesn't seem to have as mature of an implementation). In a cathedral vs. bazaar conversation, it seems that making the bazaar possible with tools designed for a cathedral makes contributions more difficult, thus less likely. This is the second message regarding darcs I've received. I was actually interested in darcs before finding arch, but had problems getting it built. I'm interested in trying it again, but it's going to take something amazing to get me to switch the majority of my code. :) -- SPY My girlfriend asked me which one I like better. pub 1024/3CAE01D5 1994/11/03 Dustin Sallings | Key fingerprint = 87 02 57 08 02 D0 DA D6 C8 0F 3E 65 51 98 D8 BE L_______________________ I hope the answer won't upset her. ____________ ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id GAA11350; Tue, 6 Apr 2004 06:20:17 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA11353 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2004 06:20:16 +0200 (MET DST) X-SPAM-Warning: Sending machine is listed in blackholes.five-ten-sg.com Received: from web41210.mail.yahoo.com (web41210.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.43]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i364KEYM020155 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2004 06:20:15 +0200 Message-ID: <20040406042014.85553.qmail@web41210.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.241.218.212] by web41210.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 21:20:14 PDT Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 21:20:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Vasili Galchin Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) To: Dustin Sallings , Kenneth Knowles Cc: caml-list@inria.fr In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 knowles:99 run-time:01 library':01 pragmatic:01 multicast:01 cae:99 bug:01 faq:01 faq:01 beginner's:01 beginners:01 $15:99 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 58 --- Dustin Sallings wrote: > > On Apr 2, 2004, at 23:43, Kenneth Knowles wrote: > > >>> .. hmmm .. but i actually want to use the CVS > version of Ocaml > >>> rather than an official release .. is there a > way to tell GODI > >>> about using CVS instead of FTPing a tarball? > >> > >> [mumble something about gnuarch making the world > a better place] > > > > [mumble something about DARCS being a > generalization of the same > > concepts with a > > fraction of the complexity] > > I'm hoping to get darcs built so I can play with it > soon. The main > point is decentralizing all of this stuff so people > can work on new > concepts without losing track of head-of-line (or > anyone else's > branch). ^^^ As a reminder the original post 'Completeness of "Unix" run-time library' was my post! I like OCaml very much BUT if people cannot "checkin" their contributions, e.g. ipv6 socket code, then OCaml is only a "science experiment"!! I am sorry for being brutal but from a pragmatic viewpoint, this is true. By definition a "community" has access to all good resources. I frankly didn't know about unchecked-in IPV6 socket code until I posted a notice about my ipv4 multicast code. Bottom line: there are a lot of valuable contributions to OCaml that should be code reviewed and if good checked-in! Alternative: C++, i.e. sh*t! Regards, Vasili > > My point is that arch was designed to solve > problems like the above. > darcs seems to have a lot in common with arch (but > doesn't seem to have > as mature of an implementation). In a cathedral vs. > bazaar > conversation, it seems that making the bazaar > possible with tools > designed for a cathedral makes contributions more > difficult, thus less > likely. > > This is the second message regarding darcs I've > received. I was > actually interested in darcs before finding arch, > but had problems > getting it built. I'm interested in trying it > again, but it's going to > take something amazing to get me to switch the > majority of my code. :) > > -- > SPY My girlfriend asked me > which one I like better. > pub 1024/3CAE01D5 1994/11/03 Dustin Sallings > > | Key fingerprint = 87 02 57 08 02 D0 DA D6 C8 > 0F 3E 65 51 98 D8 BE > L_______________________ I hope the answer won't > upset her. ____________ > > ------------------- > To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr > Archives: http://caml.inria.fr > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: > http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id JAA21302; Tue, 6 Apr 2004 09:24:51 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA21305 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2004 09:24:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.181]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i367OkYM009544 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2004 09:24:47 +0200 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp116-94.lns1.syd2.internode.on.net [150.101.116.94]) by smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i367OVKg089744; Tue, 6 Apr 2004 16:54:41 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) From: skaller Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net To: Vasili Galchin Cc: Dustin Sallings , Kenneth Knowles , caml-list In-Reply-To: <20040406042014.85553.qmail@web41210.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040406042014.85553.qmail@web41210.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1081236270.19232.41.camel@pelican> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 06 Apr 2004 17:24:31 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 sourceforge:01 2004:99 model:01 model:01 9660:01 glebe:01 ocaml:01 caml:01 media:98 nsw:01 snail:02 unix:02 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 62 On Tue, 2004-04-06 at 14:20, Vasili Galchin wrote: > Bottom line: there are a lot of > valuable contributions to OCaml that should be code > reviewed and if good checked-in! Alternative: C++, > i.e. sh*t! C++ has a formal ISO review process plus a community based development site (Boost), and other media (eg USENET). The code is free for any use, the specifications are not but they're cheap (thanks mainly to the USA national standards body). Caml has a different development model, and one can imagine a reluctance to move it closer to the C++ model for fear the result might be similar .. -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id TAA00470; Tue, 6 Apr 2004 19:24:31 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA05431 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2004 19:24:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from rabelais.socialtools.net (rabelais.socialtools.net [81.2.94.243]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i36HPKjq008669 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2004 19:25:20 +0200 Received: by rabelais.socialtools.net (Postfix, from userid 108) id 04D46232DF; Tue, 6 Apr 2004 18:24:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from socialtools.net (chaucer.socialtools.net [81.2.94.242]) by rabelais.socialtools.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28E2B232DA; Tue, 6 Apr 2004 18:24:27 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <4072E7C4.5090008@socialtools.net> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 18:24:20 +0100 From: Benjamin Geer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net Cc: Vasili Galchin , Dustin Sallings , Kenneth Knowles , caml-list Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) References: <20040406042014.85553.qmail@web41210.mail.yahoo.com> <1081236270.19232.41.camel@pelican> In-Reply-To: <1081236270.19232.41.camel@pelican> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on rabelais.socialtools.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 model:01 model:01 caml:01 unix:02 wrote:03 library:03 cathedral:95 mean:05 completeness:93 benjamin:07 similar:09 language:10 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 77 skaller wrote: > Caml has a different development model, and one can > imagine a reluctance to move it closer to the C++ > model for fear the result might be similar .. Do you mean wide use of the language in industry? :) Ben ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id TAA06888; Tue, 6 Apr 2004 19:39:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA06746 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2004 19:39:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from demos.bsdclusters.com (demos.bsdclusters.com [69.55.225.36]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i36HcwYM002591 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2004 19:38:58 +0200 Received: from demos.bsdclusters.com (demos [69.55.225.36]) by demos.bsdclusters.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i36HctWW001594; Tue, 6 Apr 2004 10:38:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kmacy@fsmware.com) Received: from localhost (kmacy@localhost) by demos.bsdclusters.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) with ESMTP id i36Hctsu001591; Tue, 6 Apr 2004 10:38:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: demos.bsdclusters.com: kmacy owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 10:38:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Kip Macy X-X-Sender: kmacy@demos.bsdclusters.com To: Benjamin Geer cc: skaller@users.sourceforge.net, Vasili Galchin , Dustin Sallings , Kenneth Knowles , caml-list Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) In-Reply-To: <4072E7C4.5090008@socialtools.net> Message-ID: <20040406103751.O83128@demos.bsdclusters.com> References: <20040406042014.85553.qmail@web41210.mail.yahoo.com> <1081236270.19232.41.camel@pelican> <4072E7C4.5090008@socialtools.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; kip:99 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 committee's:99 model:01 model:01 bug:01 faq:01 faq:01 beginner's:01 beginners:01 bin:01 caml-bugs:01 ocaml:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 79 Widespread adoptance of C++ pre-dates the ISO committee's bloating of the language. -Kip On Tue, 6 Apr 2004, Benjamin Geer wrote: > skaller wrote: > > Caml has a different development model, and one can > > imagine a reluctance to move it closer to the C++ > > model for fear the result might be similar .. > > Do you mean wide use of the language in industry? :) > > Ben > > ------------------- > To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id BAA14696; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 01:03:43 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA14643 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 01:03:41 +0200 (MET DST) X-SPAM-Warning: Sending machine is listed in blackholes.five-ten-sg.com Received: from web41212.mail.yahoo.com (web41212.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.45]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i37N4Xjq006941 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 01:04:34 +0200 Message-ID: <20040407230339.76481.qmail@web41212.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.242.203.204] by web41212.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 16:03:39 PDT Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 16:03:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Vasili Galchin Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net Cc: Dustin Sallings , Kenneth Knowles , caml-list In-Reply-To: <1081236270.19232.41.camel@pelican> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 declarative:01 terrible:01 sourceforge:01 2004:99 model:01 model:01 9660:01 glebe:01 $15:99 giveaway:99 promotions:99 giveaway:99 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 117 John, You misunderstood my point. I was saying that if OCaml and other nice declarative languages like it don't stop being science projects then all we in industry have for alternatives are terrible languages like C++! I wasn't in anyway suggesting a process that has been adopted for C++. Instead I was merely suggesting (prodding) for everybody to get off the dime and see code somehow make it through a gatekeeper and into the mainstream. Regards, Vasili --- skaller wrote: > On Tue, 2004-04-06 at 14:20, Vasili Galchin wrote: > > > Bottom line: there are a lot of > > valuable contributions to OCaml that should be > code > > reviewed and if good checked-in! Alternative: C++, > > i.e. sh*t! > > C++ has a formal ISO review process plus a community > based development site (Boost), and other media (eg > USENET). > > The code is free for any use, the specifications are > not > but they're cheap (thanks mainly to the USA national > > standards body). > > Caml has a different development model, and one can > imagine a reluctance to move it closer to the C++ > model for fear the result might be similar .. > > > -- > John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net > voice: 061-2-9660-0850, > snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia > Checkout the Felix programming language > http://felix.sf.net > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id BAA14663; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 01:08:13 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA24013 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 01:08:12 +0200 (MET DST) X-SPAM-Warning: Sending machine is listed in blackholes.five-ten-sg.com Received: from web41205.mail.yahoo.com (web41205.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.38]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i37N94jq007419 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 01:09:04 +0200 Message-ID: <20040407230810.619.qmail@web41205.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.242.203.204] by web41205.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 16:08:10 PDT Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 16:08:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Vasili Galchin Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) To: Benjamin Geer , skaller@users.sourceforge.net Cc: Vasili Galchin , Dustin Sallings , Kenneth Knowles , caml-list In-Reply-To: <4072E7C4.5090008@socialtools.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 haskell:01 haskell:01 model:01 model:01 $15:99 giveaway:99 promotions:99 giveaway:99 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 caml:01 unix:02 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 118 I (Vasili) mean wide use of OCaml in the industry. An example of a FPL that has little chance is Haskell. I saw one poster on haskell group call it a science project. I agree. The Haskell is nibbling around the edges but not providing industrial-strength libraries, etc. Fortunately OCAML seems to have a big base and a lot of people working on various projects. HOWEVER, core functionality like IPV6 socket library code is not checked in! Why? Vasili --- Benjamin Geer wrote: > skaller wrote: > > Caml has a different development model, and one > can > > imagine a reluctance to move it closer to the C++ > > model for fear the result might be similar .. > > Do you mean wide use of the language in industry? :) > > Ben __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id BAA14945; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 01:11:09 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA14992 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 01:11:07 +0200 (MET DST) X-SPAM-Warning: Sending machine is listed in blackholes.five-ten-sg.com Received: from web41207.mail.yahoo.com (web41207.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.40]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i37NBxjq007771 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 01:11:59 +0200 Message-ID: <20040407231105.89417.qmail@web41207.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.242.203.204] by web41207.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 16:11:05 PDT Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 16:11:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Vasili Galchin Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) To: Kip Macy , Benjamin Geer Cc: skaller@users.sourceforge.net, Vasili Galchin , Dustin Sallings , Kenneth Knowles , caml-list In-Reply-To: <20040406103751.O83128@demos.bsdclusters.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 pointers:01 bloat:01 terrible:01 kip:99 committee's:99 model:01 model:01 bug:01 faq:01 faq:01 beginner's:01 beginners:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 119 C++ has many more problems than that, e.g. gluing OO on a legacy languages, pointers, etc. Even without bloat it would be a terrible language. I am in no way suggesting making OCaml into some bloatware. Vasili --- Kip Macy wrote: > Widespread adoptance of C++ pre-dates the ISO > committee's bloating of > the language. > > -Kip > > On Tue, 6 Apr 2004, Benjamin Geer wrote: > > > skaller wrote: > > > Caml has a different development model, and one > can > > > imagine a reluctance to move it closer to the > C++ > > > model for fear the result might be similar .. > > > > Do you mean wide use of the language in industry? > :) > > > > Ben > > > > ------------------- > > To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr > Archives: http://caml.inria.fr > > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ > > Beginner's list: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > > > > ------------------- > To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr > Archives: http://caml.inria.fr > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: > http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id BAA16547; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 01:31:41 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA16524 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 01:31:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from bob.west.spy.net (mail.west.spy.net [66.149.231.226]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i37NVcYM008624 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 01:31:38 +0200 Received: from [10.9.254.254] (sjc-dist3-e3.2wire.com [63.203.253.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by bob.west.spy.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5AA65D98; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 16:31:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20040407230810.619.qmail@web41205.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040407230810.619.qmail@web41205.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Benjamin Geer , skaller@users.sourceforge.net, Kenneth Knowles , caml-list From: Dustin Sallings Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 16:31:01 -0700 To: Vasili Galchin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 haskell:01 haskell:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 compile:02 unix:02 wrote:03 library:03 library:03 08,:03 docs:03 group:04 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 120 On Apr 7, 2004, at 16:08, Vasili Galchin wrote: > I (Vasili) mean wide use of OCaml in the industry. An > example of a FPL that has little chance is Haskell. I > saw one poster on haskell group call it a science > project. I agree. The Haskell is nibbling around the > edges but not providing industrial-strength libraries, I'm not so sure, there seems to be a lot here: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/index.html I've been wanting to look at Haskell a bit more as a serious development language. There are a couple of problems, but it actually looks pretty good. I don't expect it to provide me the same kind of execution speeds (or compile speeds...ghc is really slow), but it does seem to have a more open development environment. I still think I'd rather use OCaml, though. > etc. Fortunately OCAML seems to have a big base and a > lot of people working on various projects. HOWEVER, > core functionality like IPV6 socket library code is > not checked in! Why? > -- Dustin Sallings ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id JAA06550; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:03:12 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA06827 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:03:11 +0200 (MET DST) X-SPAM-Warning: Sending machine is listed in blackholes.five-ten-sg.com Received: from wetware.com (wetware.wetware.com [199.108.16.1]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i38739YM026968 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:03:10 +0200 Received: from [208.177.152.18] (helo=[10.0.1.5]) by wetware.com with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BBTZ7-0003np-36; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 00:03:09 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20040407230339.76481.qmail@web41212.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040407230339.76481.qmail@web41212.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: caml-list From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 00:03:09 -0700 To: Vasili Galchin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; woodyatt:01 jhw:01 wetware:01 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 declarative:01 terrible:01 terrible:01 sarcasm:01 forked:01 woodyatt:01 jhw:01 wetware:01 ocaml:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 125 On 07 Apr 2004, at 16:03, Vasili Galchin wrote: > > You misunderstood my point. I was saying that if > OCaml and other nice declarative languages like it > don't stop being science projects then all we in > industry have for alternatives are terrible languages > like C++! I think it would be ever so convenient for industry if the scientists would stop hoarding all the perfectly good technology solutions in their palatial research laboratories where industry has absolutely no control over their development. If the scientists were only a little more accommodating, then industry wouldn't have to use all those terrible alternative technologies they've been saddled with all these years. It's so unfair. > I wasn't in anyway suggesting a process that > has been adopted for C++. Instead I was merely > suggesting (prodding) for everybody to get off the > dime and see code somehow make it through a gatekeeper > and into the mainstream. It wouldn't be the first time a language forked because of diverging interests between researchers and commercial interests. Perhaps there is nothing really new under the sun. Seriously, and I'm trying to be helpful here, it is not the scientists who decide what is useful to industry. It is industry that decides what are the useful applications of research. If industry wants a standard definition of a language system with all the features of Ocaml, then industry will make one. -- j h woodyatt markets are only free to the people who own them. ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id JAA07783; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:28:57 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA08739 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:28:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail0.jaist.ac.jp (mail0.jaist.ac.jp [150.65.5.97]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i387SrYM030799 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:28:54 +0200 Received: from smtp.jaist.ac.jp (proxy-isc.jaist.ac.jp [150.65.5.30]) by mail0.jaist.ac.jp (3.7W-jaist_mail) with ESMTP id i387SqQ13777; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:28:52 +0900 (JST) Received: from euclid (ks36w0f13.jaist.ac.jp [150.65.64.73]) by smtp.jaist.ac.jp (3.7W-smtp) with SMTP id i387Si203974; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:28:44 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <011701c41d39$4bc01f40$49404196@euclid> From: "Stijn De Saeger" To: "james woodyatt" , "Vasili Galchin" Cc: "caml-list" References: <20040407230339.76481.qmail@web41212.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:15:39 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 erlang:01 ocaml:01 unix:02 library:03 suppose:03 cathedral:95 definition:06 completeness:93 examples:07 standard:07 i'm:07 language:10 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 127 > Seriously, and I'm trying to be helpful here, it is not the scientists > who decide what is useful to industry. It is industry that decides > what are the useful applications of research. If industry wants a > standard definition of a language system with all the features of > Ocaml, then industry will make one. agreed. As for examples, I suppose Erlang is as good as they come. stijn. ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id KAA14100; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 10:25:36 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA14076 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 10:25:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.203]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i388QQjq028214 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 10:26:27 +0200 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp116-94.lns1.syd2.internode.on.net [150.101.116.94]) by smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i388PJvM067630; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 17:55:24 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) From: skaller Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net To: Vasili Galchin Cc: skaller@users.sourceforge.net, Dustin Sallings , Kenneth Knowles , caml-list In-Reply-To: <20040407230339.76481.qmail@web41212.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040407230339.76481.qmail@web41212.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1081412719.19232.914.camel@pelican> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 08 Apr 2004 18:25:19 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 sourceforge:01 2004:99 9660:01 glebe:01 compiler:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 nsw:01 mainstream:01 snail:02 unix:02 checkout:02 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 133 On Thu, 2004-04-08 at 09:03, Vasili Galchin wrote: > John, > > You misunderstood my point. No I didn't :) YOu said at one point "I'm an old man and I'd love to see a decent language in the mainstream" .. or words to that effect. Me too, both parts! The issue here is how to get the result we want. I'd go for Ocaml 4 with the existing Ocaml team remaining in full control of the compiler, but relinquishing *totally* the standard library to a public process. The new library starts off EMPTY, and compatility isn't allowed as an argument except as a tie breaker. On the other hand accepted principles are valid arguments, for example functions operating on a container type shall take the container as the first argument. There's no way this process would work without the Ocaml team being an active part of it! [And I'm going to vote for Ocamlgraph being included first thing!] -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id MAA24637; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 12:12:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA24781 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 12:12:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from eris.rz.uni-saarland.de (eris.rz.uni-saarland.de [134.96.7.8]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i38ADCjq009144 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 12:13:12 +0200 Received: from cs.uni-sb.de (cs.uni-sb.de [134.96.254.254]) by eris.rz.uni-saarland.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i38ABFQD19831823 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 12:12:17 +0200 (CST) Received: from mail.cs.uni-sb.de (mail.cs.uni-sb.de [134.96.254.200]) by cs.uni-sb.de (8.12.11/2003091100) with ESMTP id i389ZdHJ013286 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 11:35:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ps.uni-sb.de (grizzly.ps.uni-sb.de [134.96.186.68]) by mail.cs.uni-sb.de (8.12.11/2003073000) with ESMTP id i389ZdXd027059 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 11:35:39 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: email: Host grizzly.ps.uni-sb.de [134.96.186.68] claimed to be ps.uni-sb.de Received: from ps.uni-sb.de (groove.ps.uni-sb.de [134.96.186.172]) by ps.uni-sb.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i389ZblT026811; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 11:35:37 +0200 Message-ID: <40751CE9.3080503@ps.uni-sb.de> Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 11:35:37 +0200 From: Andreas Rossberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4.1) Gecko/20031114 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: caml-list Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) References: <20040407230339.76481.qmail@web41212.mail.yahoo.com> <1081412719.19232.914.camel@pelican> In-Reply-To: <1081412719.19232.914.camel@pelican> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiVirus: checked by AntiVir Milter 1.0.6; AVE 6.25.0.2; VDF 6.25.0.8 X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; rossberg:01 rossberg:01 uni-sb:01 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 currying:01 uni-sb:01 unix:02 wrote:03 library:03 argument:03 argument:03 arguments:03 cathedral:95 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 134 skaller wrote: > > On the other hand accepted principles are valid arguments, > for example functions operating on a container type shall take > the container as the first argument. Ah, here controversy already starts. AFAICS, this is neither an accepted nor a good principle in a language with currying. For example, there is good practical reason that map, fold, etc take the container as their last argument. ;-) Cheers, - Andreas -- Andreas Rossberg, rossberg@ps.uni-sb.de Let's get rid of those possible thingies! -- TB ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA27719; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 13:05:28 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA27447 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 13:05:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from grisu.bik-gmbh.de (grisu.bik-gmbh.de [217.110.154.194]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i38B6Kjq014612 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 13:06:20 +0200 Received: from bik-gmbh.de ([192.168.125.193]) by grisu.bik-gmbh.de (8.12.8p2/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i38B5L1B098028; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 13:05:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from hars@bik-gmbh.de) Message-ID: <407531EC.6070106@bik-gmbh.de> Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 13:05:16 +0200 From: Florian Hars User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.7b) Gecko/20040316 X-Accept-Language: de, de-de, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andreas Rossberg CC: caml-list Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) References: <20040407230339.76481.qmail@web41212.mail.yahoo.com> <1081412719.19232.914.camel@pelican> <40751CE9.3080503@ps.uni-sb.de> In-Reply-To: <40751CE9.3080503@ps.uni-sb.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_UA,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; florian:01 hars:01 hars:01 bik-gmbh:01 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 rossberg:01 currying:01 hashtbl:01 hashtbl:01 florian:01 unix:02 wrote:03 library:03 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 135 Andreas Rossberg wrote: > Ah, here controversy already starts. AFAICS, this is neither an accepted > nor a good principle in a language with currying. For example, there is > good practical reason that map, fold, etc take the container as their > last argument. ;-) Except that the folds in Hashtbl, Map.S and Set.S have the container in the second position (as does List.fold_right). But having both add tbl k v in Hashtbl and add k v tbl in Map.S is evil, indeed. Yours, Florian. ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id OAA31759; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 14:11:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA31140 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 14:11:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from eris.rz.uni-saarland.de (eris.rz.uni-saarland.de [134.96.7.8]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i38CCPjq021604 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 14:12:25 +0200 Received: from cs.uni-sb.de (cs.uni-sb.de [134.96.254.254]) by eris.rz.uni-saarland.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i38CBGPJ19900574 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 14:11:30 +0200 (CST) Received: from mail.cs.uni-sb.de (mail.cs.uni-sb.de [134.96.254.200]) by cs.uni-sb.de (8.12.11/2003091100) with ESMTP id i38BVmi9017444 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 13:31:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ps.uni-sb.de (grizzly.ps.uni-sb.de [134.96.186.68]) by mail.cs.uni-sb.de (8.12.11/2003073000) with ESMTP id i38BVlZK016066 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 13:31:47 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: email: Host grizzly.ps.uni-sb.de [134.96.186.68] claimed to be ps.uni-sb.de Received: from ps.uni-sb.de (groove.ps.uni-sb.de [134.96.186.172]) by ps.uni-sb.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i38BVklT001526 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 13:31:46 +0200 Message-ID: <40753822.2050907@ps.uni-sb.de> Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 13:31:46 +0200 From: Andreas Rossberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4.1) Gecko/20031114 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: caml-list Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) References: <20040407230339.76481.qmail@web41212.mail.yahoo.com> <1081412719.19232.914.camel@pelican> <40751CE9.3080503@ps.uni-sb.de> <407531EC.6070106@bik-gmbh.de> In-Reply-To: <407531EC.6070106@bik-gmbh.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiVirus: checked by AntiVir Milter 1.0.6; AVE 6.25.0.2; VDF 6.25.0.8 X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; rossberg:01 rossberg:01 uni-sb:01 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 florian:01 hars:01 hashtbl:01 uni-sb:01 unix:02 wrote:03 library:03 argument:03 cathedral:95 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 136 Florian Hars wrote: > >> there is good practical reason that map, fold, etc take the >> container as their last argument. ;-) > > Except that the folds in Hashtbl, Map.S and Set.S have the container in > the second position (as does List.fold_right). Which I consider a design error indeed. :-) - Andreas -- Andreas Rossberg, rossberg@ps.uni-sb.de Let's get rid of those possible thingies! -- TB ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id OAA00202; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 14:33:49 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA00692 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 14:33:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from aomori.annexia.org (annexia.force9.co.uk [212.56.101.183]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i38CYfjq024204 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 14:34:41 +0200 Received: from rich by aomori.annexia.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1BBYj5-0007nZ-00 for ; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 13:33:47 +0100 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 13:33:47 +0100 Cc: caml-list Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040408123347.GA29954@redhat.com> References: <20040407230339.76481.qmail@web41212.mail.yahoo.com> <1081412719.19232.914.camel@pelican> <40751CE9.3080503@ps.uni-sb.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40751CE9.3080503@ps.uni-sb.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Richard Jones X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 rossberg:01 currying:01 currying:01 obstacle:01 vanier:01 ltd:98 0200,:01 unix:02 wrote:03 wrote:03 library:03 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 137 On Thu, Apr 08, 2004 at 11:35:37AM +0200, Andreas Rossberg wrote: > skaller wrote: > > > >On the other hand accepted principles are valid arguments, > >for example functions operating on a container type shall take > >the container as the first argument. > > Ah, here controversy already starts. AFAICS, this is neither an accepted > nor a good principle in a language with currying. For example, there is > good practical reason that map, fold, etc take the container as their > last argument. ;-) That's right. Make the argument ordering good for currying. Rich. -- Richard Jones. http://www.annexia.org/ http://www.j-london.com/ Merjis Ltd. http://www.merjis.com/ - improving website return on investment "One serious obstacle to the adoption of good programming languages is the notion that everything has to be sacrificed for speed. In computer languages as in life, speed kills." -- Mike Vanier ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id PAA05513; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 15:43:45 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA05505 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 15:43:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kurims.kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp (kurims.kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp [130.54.16.1]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i38DhfYM017462 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 15:43:43 +0200 Received: from localhost (suiren.kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp [130.54.16.25]) by kurims.kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp (8.9.3p2-20030924/3.7W) with ESMTP id WAA26660; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 22:39:50 +0900 (JST) To: rossberg@ps.uni-sb.de Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) In-Reply-To: <40753822.2050907@ps.uni-sb.de> References: <40751CE9.3080503@ps.uni-sb.de> <407531EC.6070106@bik-gmbh.de> <40753822.2050907@ps.uni-sb.de> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.2 on Emacs 21.2 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20040408223950O.garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 22:39:50 +0900 From: Jacques Garrigue X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 jacques:01 rossberg:01 rossberg:01 uni-sb:01 hashtbl:01 morelabels:01 unlabelled:01 jacques:01 garrigue:01 garrigue:01 labels:01 unix:02 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 139 From: Andreas Rossberg > >> there is good practical reason that map, fold, etc take the > >> container as their last argument. ;-) > > > > Except that the folds in Hashtbl, Map.S and Set.S have the container in > > the second position (as does List.fold_right). > > Which I consider a design error indeed. :-) open MoreLabels (Sorry, but sometimes I want to remind people that parameter order is not really relevant) To be precise with labels you have: * the container is the first unlabelled argument * it can be in the last position simultaneously Jacques Garrigue ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id PAA06094; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 15:48:50 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA05400 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 15:48:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from gatekeeper.elmer.external.excelhustler.com (gatekeeper.excelhustler.com [68.99.114.105]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i38DmlYM018243 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 15:48:47 +0200 Received: from chatterbox.elmer.internal.excelhustler.com (unknown [192.168.0.12]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (Client CN "chatterbox.elmer.internal.excelhustler.com", Issuer "excelhustler.com" (not verified)) by gatekeeper.elmer.external.excelhustler.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6B74E0140; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 08:48:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chatterbox.elmer.internal.excelhustler.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05A25C006; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 08:48:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from wile.internal.excelhustler.com (wile.internal.excelhustler.com [192.168.1.34]) by chatterbox.elmer.internal.excelhustler.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8154A5C005; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 08:48:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: by wile.internal.excelhustler.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 271FD1B065; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 08:48:47 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 08:48:47 -0500 From: John Goerzen To: Vasili Galchin Cc: Benjamin Geer , skaller@users.sourceforge.net, Dustin Sallings , Kenneth Knowles , caml-list Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040408134847.GE29195@excelhustler.com> References: <4072E7C4.5090008@socialtools.net> <20040407230810.619.qmail@web41205.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040407230810.619.qmail@web41205.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-Scanned-By: clamscan at chatterbox.elmer.internal.excelhustler.com X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 haskell:01 haskell:01 terrible:01 pervasive:01 prolog:01 reinventing:01 ocamlodbc:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 0700,:01 lazy:02 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 140 On Wed, Apr 07, 2004 at 04:08:10PM -0700, Vasili Galchin wrote: > I (Vasili) mean wide use of OCaml in the industry. An > example of a FPL that has little chance is Haskell. I > saw one poster on haskell group call it a science > project. I agree. The Haskell is nibbling around the > edges but not providing industrial-strength libraries, > etc. Fortunately OCAML seems to have a big base and a > lot of people working on various projects. HOWEVER, > core functionality like IPV6 socket library code is > not checked in! Why? These are good points. One thing that must *constantly* be considered by someone looking at a language is the size, flexibility, and quality of libraries available to help reduce the time to implement a project. Haskell is absolutely terrible in this regard, so while I actually prefer its more pervasive lazy evaluation (or even that of a logic language like Prolog), the fact that I would have to be doing a tremendous amount of wheel reinventing quickly soured me on Haskell. OCaml is better, good enough to be a player, but not good enough to be a good tool. Here are some examples: * OCaml has no library for IMAP. * OCamlDBI supports only two database servers. OcamlODBC supports many more through the system's ODBC support, but loads the entire result set into memory before handing it over to the user, which makes it unusable for many serious projects. * Your socket-related point is completely accurate and on-target. * String processing and list processing -- especially slicing -- remain weaknesses. * Time calculations and formatting are also largely missing. -- John ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id PAA06716; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 15:57:03 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA07259 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 15:57:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from gatekeeper.elmer.external.excelhustler.com (gatekeeper.excelhustler.com [68.99.114.105]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i38Dvtjq001664 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 15:57:55 +0200 Received: from chatterbox.elmer.internal.excelhustler.com (unknown [192.168.0.12]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (Client CN "chatterbox.elmer.internal.excelhustler.com", Issuer "excelhustler.com" (not verified)) by gatekeeper.elmer.external.excelhustler.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D7AEE01A1; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 08:57:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chatterbox.elmer.internal.excelhustler.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D1115C006; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 08:57:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from wile.internal.excelhustler.com (wile.internal.excelhustler.com [192.168.1.34]) by chatterbox.elmer.internal.excelhustler.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 435125C005; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 08:57:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: by wile.internal.excelhustler.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DE35F49004; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 08:57:00 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 08:57:00 -0500 From: John Goerzen To: Dustin Sallings Cc: Vasili Galchin , Benjamin Geer , skaller@users.sourceforge.net, Kenneth Knowles , caml-list Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040408135700.GF29195@excelhustler.com> References: <20040407230810.619.qmail@web41205.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-Scanned-By: clamscan at chatterbox.elmer.internal.excelhustler.com X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 haskell:01 haskell:01 posix:01 generic:01 nntp:01 curses:01 python:01 forks:01 python:01 add-on:01 ocaml:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 141 On Wed, Apr 07, 2004 at 04:31:01PM -0700, Dustin Sallings wrote: > >saw one poster on haskell group call it a science > >project. I agree. The Haskell is nibbling around the > >edges but not providing industrial-strength libraries, > > I'm not so sure, there seems to be a lot here: > > http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/index.html Actually, much of what is there are just basics that you'd find anywhere -- directory scanning, etc. Though it does seem to have better support for POSIX libraries than OCaml (which is a sad commentary itself). Things that are notably missing from Haskell, judging by that list, include: * Generic URL handling and HTTP client libraries * IMAP * POP * SMTP * NNTP * Databases of any sort * XML and XML-RPC * E-mail/MIME parsing (another huge problem right there) * Thread support * Curses Compare that to, for instance: http://www.python.org/doc/current/modindex.html You'll see even more there, including MacOS resource forks, audio support, etc. Not to mention the huge Python add-on community or the even larger Perl one. ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id QAA08043; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:06:52 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA07963 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:06:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from aomori.annexia.org (annexia.force9.co.uk [212.56.101.183]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i38E6oYM021223 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:06:50 +0200 Received: from rich by aomori.annexia.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1BBaB8-0008Gy-00 for ; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 15:06:50 +0100 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 15:06:50 +0100 To: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040408140650.GA31763@redhat.com> References: <4072E7C4.5090008@socialtools.net> <20040407230810.619.qmail@web41205.mail.yahoo.com> <20040408134847.GE29195@excelhustler.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040408134847.GE29195@excelhustler.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Richard Jones X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 wrappers:01 ocamlodbc:01 generic:01 ltd:98 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 unix:02 loads:03 string:03 wrote:03 library:03 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 143 On Thu, Apr 08, 2004 at 08:48:47AM -0500, John Goerzen wrote: > * OCaml has no library for IMAP. > * Time calculations and formatting are also largely missing. Actually there are some of Perl libraries that can be used for this, and the OCaml wrappers around the time libraries are already done. > * String processing and list processing -- especially slicing -- remain > weaknesses. Agreed! > * OCamlDBI supports only two database servers. OcamlODBC supports many > more through the system's ODBC support, but loads the entire result > set into memory before handing it over to the user, which makes it > unusable for many serious projects. Sure. Needs money and/or time. OCamlDBI tries to be a generic layer, but the specific database drivers don't appear by magic. I'm more than willing to integrate any straight away, and actually they're not too hard to write. Rich. -- Richard Jones. http://www.annexia.org/ http://www.j-london.com/ Merjis Ltd. http://www.merjis.com/ - improving website return on investment http://www.YouUnlimited.co.uk/ - management courses ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id QAA11773; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:53:24 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA11765 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:53:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from gatekeeper.elmer.external.excelhustler.com (gatekeeper.excelhustler.com [68.99.114.105]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i38EsFjq008777 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:54:16 +0200 Received: from chatterbox.elmer.internal.excelhustler.com (unknown [192.168.0.12]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (Client CN "chatterbox.elmer.internal.excelhustler.com", Issuer "excelhustler.com" (not verified)) by gatekeeper.elmer.external.excelhustler.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF5E9E0140; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:53:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chatterbox.elmer.internal.excelhustler.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02B45C006; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:53:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from wile.internal.excelhustler.com (wile.internal.excelhustler.com [192.168.1.34]) by chatterbox.elmer.internal.excelhustler.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8694D5C005; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:53:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: by wile.internal.excelhustler.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2CEDA49004; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:53:21 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:53:21 -0500 From: John Goerzen To: Richard Jones Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040408145321.GA30763@excelhustler.com> References: <4072E7C4.5090008@socialtools.net> <20040407230810.619.qmail@web41205.mail.yahoo.com> <20040408134847.GE29195@excelhustler.com> <20040408140650.GA31763@redhat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040408140650.GA31763@redhat.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-Scanned-By: clamscan at chatterbox.elmer.internal.excelhustler.com X-Miltered: at nez-perce by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 2004:99 wrappers:01 wrappers:01 ocamlodbc:01 generic:01 ocamlodbc:01 real-world:01 inaccurate:01 posix:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 144 On Thu, Apr 08, 2004 at 03:06:50PM +0100, Richard Jones wrote: > On Thu, Apr 08, 2004 at 08:48:47AM -0500, John Goerzen wrote: > > * OCaml has no library for IMAP. > > * Time calculations and formatting are also largely missing. > > Actually there are some of Perl libraries that can be used for this, > and the OCaml wrappers around the time libraries are already done. Where can I find those wrappers? > > * OCamlDBI supports only two database servers. OcamlODBC supports many > > more through the system's ODBC support, but loads the entire result > > set into memory before handing it over to the user, which makes it > > unusable for many serious projects. > > Sure. Needs money and/or time. OCamlDBI tries to be a generic layer, > but the specific database drivers don't appear by magic. I'm more > than willing to integrate any straight away, and actually they're not > too hard to write. I know, and agree, and BTW have found OcamlDBI to have come a long way in a very short time. It is now a great tool for working with my PostgreSQL server, and I appreciate the hard work that went into making it that. I know too that OcamlDBI supports OcamlODBC, but it is unfortunately still limited by the OcamlODBC limitations. I'm not trying to cast blame anywhere, I'm just saying that I think that "Ocaml has a robust set of tools for real-world uses" is inaccurate. To be sure, databases are probably a small part of that vs. the string, list, and POSIX problems. -- John ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id VAA07787; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 21:56:41 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA07686 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 21:56:40 +0200 (MET DST) X-SPAM-Warning: Sending machine is listed in blackholes.five-ten-sg.com Received: from poincare (pcp01305480pcs.pimaco01.az.comcast.net [68.63.190.172]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i38JucYM005075 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 21:56:39 +0200 Received: from poincare ([127.0.0.1] helo=localhost ident=trch) by poincare with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1BBfdG-0001SR-00; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:56:14 +0200 Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:56:10 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20040408.215610.06404491.debian00@tiscali.be> To: jgoerzen@complete.org Cc: rich@annexia.org, caml-list@inria.fr Subject: [Caml-list] Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar From: Christophe TROESTLER In-Reply-To: <20040408145321.GA30763@excelhustler.com> References: <20040408134847.GE29195@excelhustler.com> <20040408140650.GA31763@redhat.com> <20040408145321.GA30763@excelhustler.com> Organization: None X-Spook: underground IRA bank UOP Verisign AUTODIN Panama Honduras NASA Aldergrove X-Mailer-URL: http://www.mew.org/ X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux (http://www.linux.org/) X-Blessing: Om Ah Hum Vajra Guru Pema Siddhi Hum X-Mailer: Mew version 4.0.61 on Emacs 21.3.1 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 troestler:01 tiscali:99 2004:99 generic:01 ocamlodbc:01 ocamlodbc:01 chris:01 christophe:01 wrote:03 wrote:03 08,:03 cathedral:95 limitations:05 cheers:06 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 181 On Thu, 8 Apr 2004, John Goerzen wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 08, 2004 at 03:06:50PM +0100, Richard Jones wrote: > > Sure. Needs money and/or time. OCamlDBI tries to be a generic layer, > > but the specific database drivers don't appear by magic. [...] > > [...] I know too that OcamlDBI supports OcamlODBC, but it is > unfortunately still limited by the OcamlODBC limitations. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ They will be worked out. Like Richard said the problem is "money and/or time". (So you are welcome to pay us to accelerate the process :-)). Cheers, ChriS ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id WAA11549; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 22:47:29 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA11329 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 22:47:28 +0200 (MET DST) X-SPAM-Warning: Sending machine is listed in blackholes.five-ten-sg.com Received: from danga.com (danga.com [66.150.15.140]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i38KlRYM011501 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 22:47:28 +0200 Received: by danga.com (Postfix, from userid 1009) id A9ED53BC19D; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 13:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 13:47:25 -0700 From: Evan Martin To: Richard Jones Cc: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040408204725.GA13612@danga.com> References: <4072E7C4.5090008@socialtools.net> <20040407230810.619.qmail@web41205.mail.yahoo.com> <20040408134847.GE29195@excelhustler.com> <20040408140650.GA31763@redhat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040408140650.GA31763@redhat.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; evan:01 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 ocamlodbc:01 generic:01 evan:01 unix:02 loads:03 wrote:03 library:03 08,:03 cathedral:95 unusable:04 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 183 On Thu, Apr 08, 2004 at 03:06:50PM +0100, Richard Jones wrote: > > * OCamlDBI supports only two database servers. OcamlODBC supports many > > more through the system's ODBC support, but loads the entire result > > set into memory before handing it over to the user, which makes it > > unusable for many serious projects. > > Sure. Needs money and/or time. OCamlDBI tries to be a generic layer, > but the specific database drivers don't appear by magic. I'm more > than willing to integrate any straight away, and actually they're not > too hard to write. Er, speaking of which, I have a driver for SQLite that I had forgotton to send to you. (Not that three is much better than two, but it's at least a start.) -- Evan Martin martine@danga.com http://neugierig.org ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id XAA13412; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 23:20:45 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA12801 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 23:20:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from calmail-cl.berkeley.edu (mailfarm.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.61.106]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i38LKgYM015316 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 23:20:42 +0200 Received: from [64.162.212.212] (HELO tallman.kefka.frap.net) by calmail-cl.berkeley.edu (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with SMTP id 14681048; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 14:20:41 -0700 Received: by tallman.kefka.frap.net (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 8 Apr 2004 14:20:04 -0700 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 14:20:04 -0700 From: Kenneth Knowles To: Evan Martin Cc: Richard Jones , caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Message-ID: <20040408212004.GA23759@tallman.kefka.frap.net> References: <4072E7C4.5090008@socialtools.net> <20040407230810.619.qmail@web41205.mail.yahoo.com> <20040408134847.GE29195@excelhustler.com> <20040408140650.GA31763@redhat.com> <20040408204725.GA13612@danga.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040408204725.GA13612@danga.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; knowles:99 ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 evan:01 2004:99 ocamlodbc:01 generic:01 one-to-one:01 api:01 0700,:01 unix:02 loads:03 module:03 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 185 On Thu, Apr 08, 2004 at 01:47:25PM -0700, Evan Martin wrote: > On Thu, Apr 08, 2004 at 03:06:50PM +0100, Richard Jones wrote: > > > * OCamlDBI supports only two database servers. OcamlODBC supports many > > > more through the system's ODBC support, but loads the entire result > > > set into memory before handing it over to the user, which makes it > > > unusable for many serious projects. > > > > Sure. Needs money and/or time. OCamlDBI tries to be a generic layer, > > but the specific database drivers don't appear by magic. I'm more > > than willing to integrate any straight away, and actually they're not > > too hard to write. > > Er, speaking of which, I have a driver for SQLite that I had forgotton > to send to you. > > (Not that three is much better than two, but it's at least a start.) Well, as long as we are on the subject, I have wrapped FreeTDS (ct-lib) and in the process created an ocamldbi module for it (in additional to a more one-to-one mapping with the C API). As soon as I get it nicely packaged... Kenn ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA09264; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:15:32 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA09120 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:15:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mta1.cl.cam.ac.uk (mta1.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.0.15]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i3DBFTYM006402 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:15:29 +0200 Received: from astrocyte.cl.cam.ac.uk ([128.232.8.107] helo=cl.cam.ac.uk ident=[8gbP3zQi3e/AaqZd41MT6mgQpES1vTZI]) by mta1.cl.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.092 #1) id 1BDLsg-0008U7-00; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 12:15:06 +0100 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.6.3-CL 04/04/2003 with nmh-1.0.4 X-Exmh-Isig-CompType: repl X-Exmh-Isig-Folder: cslists/caml To: John Goerzen cc: Dustin Sallings , Vasili Galchin , Benjamin Geer , skaller@users.sourceforge.net, Kenneth Knowles , caml-list Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 08 Apr 2004 08:57:00 CDT." <20040408135700.GF29195@excelhustler.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 12:15:05 +0100 From: Keith Wansbrough Message-Id: X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 2004:99 haskell:01 haskell:01 generic:01 nntp:01 low-level:01 higher-level:01 api:01 threading:01 model:01 curses:01 ffi:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 270 John Goerzen writes: > On Wed, Apr 07, 2004 at 04:31:01PM -0700, Dustin Sallings wrote: > > I'm not so sure, there seems to be a lot here: > > > > http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/index.html [..] > Things that are notably missing from Haskell, judging by that list, include: > > * Generic URL handling and HTTP client libraries Exists to some degree. > * IMAP > * POP > * SMTP > * NNTP agree > * Databases of any sort At least two low-level bindings (each binding to MySQL, ODBC, ...) exist, and work is continuing on a higher-level API. > * XML and XML-RPC XML exists - three bindings. > * E-mail/MIME parsing (another huge problem right there) agree. > * Thread support GHC has a rather mature and advanced threading model. > * Curses Not sure. The FFI is fully documented and easy to use, and there are tools that take an annotated C header file or IDL file and automatically convert to foreign-function declarations. HTH. --KW 8-) ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners