[Caml-list] suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[Caml-list] suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[Henri DF]

Hi, 

Currently the first hit in google for "ocaml" is www.ocaml.org. This is a 
great site, but unfortunately has been dead for a while (only 1 news item 
in 18 months, and the maintainer is not answering any offers for help).

In large part, the purpose of such a site should be to convey that ocaml 
is a living, breathing animal. But the frozen newsfeed on the site 
will most definitely achieve the opposite effect (not to mention that having 
as "news" that ocaml has won some programming contest will give many 
newcomers the impression that this language is run by teenagers and has 
nothing "real" to show..).

So the point of this email is to suggest that people try not to link to 
this site, so that hopefully it regresses from the #1 google spot. Even 
better would be if we could get ocaml.org back to life, but sadly that is 
not in our control.

Henri

-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

[Caml-list] Re: suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[Alan Post]

In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0404140017010.4788-100000@lcmpc4.epfl.ch>, Henri DF wrote:
> 
> Currently the first hit in google for "ocaml" is www.ocaml.org. This is a 
> great site, but unfortunately has been dead for a while (only 1 news item 
> in 18 months, and the maintainer is not answering any offers for help).

It looks like Julian Assange is still alive, at least:

  http://iq.org/~proff/

He also seems to have an address as a NetBSD developer @netbsd.org.

-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

Re: [Caml-list] suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[Zed A. Shaw]

You know, as kind of an outsider, I didn't know there was any other site
for ocaml.  I seriously thought that ocaml.org was the official one, and
after reading lots of docs can't recall any mention of
http://caml.inria.fr being for OCaml as well (since it just says caml in
the name, I assumed it was for caml light).  I'm sure it's mentioned
somewhere, but you didn't even mention it here in your e-mail, which
should show you that maybe the http://caml.inria.fr site isn't promoted
enough.  I mean, I had to figure it out from the mailing list address,
which means I might still be wrong :-)

Also,  when I went to check, there was a new news item matching the one
from the inria.fr site.  Did the guy just update it right now?

Anyway, just thought you might want a "newbie" perspective on why
www.ocaml.org may be more popular on google.  I'd suggest putting it in
your signature for this list at least, and at the top of all your
documents.

Zed A. Shaw
http://www.zedshaw.com/

^--- See, like that :-)


On 4/13/2004, "Henri DF" <henri.dubois-ferriere@epfl.ch> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Currently the first hit in google for "ocaml" is www.ocaml.org. This is a
>great site, but unfortunately has been dead for a while (only 1 news item
>in 18 months, and the maintainer is not answering any offers for help).
>
>In large part, the purpose of such a site should be to convey that ocaml
>is a living, breathing animal. But the frozen newsfeed on the site
>will most definitely achieve the opposite effect (not to mention that having
>as "news" that ocaml has won some programming contest will give many
>newcomers the impression that this language is run by teenagers and has
>nothing "real" to show..).
>
>So the point of this email is to suggest that people try not to link to
>this site, so that hopefully it regresses from the #1 google spot. Even
>better would be if we could get ocaml.org back to life, but sadly that is
>not in our control.
>
>Henri
>
>-------------------
>To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
>Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
>Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners
>
>

-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

Re: [Caml-list] suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[Christophe TROESTLER]

On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, Henri DF <henri.dubois-ferriere@epfl.ch> wrote:
> 
> So the point of this email is to suggest that people try not to link
> to this site, so that hopefully it regresses from the #1 google
> spot. Even better would be if we could get ocaml.org back to life,
> but sadly that is not in our control.

Like others on this list, I contacted the site maintainer to no avail.
It is a sad thing indeed.  But maybe there is a way out.  See

$ whois ocaml.org
Domain ID:D27630749-LROR
Domain Name:OCAML.ORG
Created On:23-May-2000 01:50:28 UTC
Last Updated On:28-Oct-2003 19:34:16 UTC
Expiration Date:23-May-2004 01:50:28 UTC
[...]

The domain will be available in a little more than one month (if Mr J
Assange really lost interest, he will not renew it).  Maybe one should
consider buying it, or rather -- to avoid the same thing to happen
again -- it may be better that INRIA buys it and gives it back to the
community (some people were ready to give machines and maintenance
time as I understood it).

I think it would be great to take opportunity of such a site to also
build a central repository -- if possible connected to development
tools like those found on Savanah (http://savannah.gnu.org/).

ChriS


P.S.  Maybe someone in AU should consider trying to join Mr J Assange
on the phone (+61.398188888)?

-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

Re: [Caml-list] Re: suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[Henri DF]

> In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0404140017010.4788-100000@lcmpc4.epfl.ch>, Henri DF wrote:
> > 
> > Currently the first hit in google for "ocaml" is www.ocaml.org. This is a 
> > great site, but unfortunately has been dead for a while (only 1 news item 
> > in 18 months, and the maintainer is not answering any offers for help).
> 
> It looks like Julian Assange is still alive, at least:
> 
>   http://iq.org/~proff/
> 
> He also seems to have an address as a NetBSD developer @netbsd.org.

ok, i've fwded my email to that address (had written to @iq.org)

thanks
henri


> 
> -------------------
> To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners
> 

-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

RE: [Caml-list] suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[Brandon J. Van Every]

Zed A. Shaw
>
> You know, as kind of an outsider, I didn't know there was any
> other site for ocaml.

As one recently interested in OCaml, I concur.  It took me awhile to
find caml.inria.fr and to realize that it was in fact the canonical
site.  From a marketing perspective, the ICFP and the Language Shootouts
are the reasons I became interested in OCaml, there are no other
reasons.  A number of other languages have the features, and some have
much better libraries, packages, and industrial provenness.  What OCaml
apparently has is performance.

The only thing I intensely dislike about the www.ocaml.org website is
the slogan, "The programming tool of choice for discriminating hackers."
This suggests that OCaml is a toy, used by exploratory geeks who don't
know the value of a dollar.  I prefer INRIA's utter blandness to
ocaml.org's championing of the hacker geek ethic.

Don't get me started on the Python Software Foundation's utter inability
to market anything.


Cheers,                     www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every           Seattle, WA

"The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
                          - anonymous entrepreneur



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.643 / Virus Database: 411 - Release Date: 3/25/2004

-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

Re: [Caml-list] Re: suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[Christophe TROESTLER]

On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, Henri DF <henri.dubois-ferriere@epfl.ch> wrote:
> 
> > In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0404140017010.4788-100000@lcmpc4.epfl.ch>, Henri DF wrote:
> > > 
> > > Currently the first hit in google for "ocaml" is www.ocaml.org.

Well, such a site would be good for the community to have anyway.
Unfortunately, ocaml.net and ocaml.com are both already registered.
As ocaml.com just redirects to ocaml.org, maybe the owner would not
mind to give it to the Caml developpers?

ChriS

-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

Re: [Caml-list] suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[Karl Zilles]

Zed A. Shaw wrote:
 > Also,  when I went to check, there was a new news item matching the one
 > from the inria.fr site.  Did the guy just update it right now?

Yes.  He did.  I believe the message got through.

As long as the news stays updated, I don't think the site is a problem.

-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

Re: [Caml-list] suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[John Goerzen]

On Tue, Apr 13, 2004 at 04:25:45PM -0700, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> reasons.  A number of other languages have the features, and some have
> much better libraries, packages, and industrial provenness.  What OCaml
> apparently has is performance.

That's interesting but not the reason that I was attracted to it.

> The only thing I intensely dislike about the www.ocaml.org website is
> the slogan, "The programming tool of choice for discriminating hackers."
> This suggests that OCaml is a toy, used by exploratory geeks who don't
> know the value of a dollar.  I prefer INRIA's utter blandness to
> ocaml.org's championing of the hacker geek ethic.

No, it suggests that OCaml is a real language that can be used to solve
real problems quickly, that it is not a "toy" language like BASIC, and
that it has some power wrt system-level programming.  Most of this is
true, though it is rather weak on the system-level programming side.

Both sites are functional.  The Humps at ocaml.org are quite valuable.
INRIA's page loads fast and I find what I want fast.  I fail to see any
problem there.

> Don't get me started on the Python Software Foundation's utter inability
> to market anything.

Why should they?  They're not a .com.  Python is doing quite well, I'd
say.

-- John

-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

RE: [Caml-list] suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[Brandon J. Van Every]

John Goerzen wrote:
> Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> >
> > The only thing I intensely dislike about the www.ocaml.org
> > website is
> > the slogan, "The programming tool of choice for
> > discriminating hackers."
> > This suggests that OCaml is a toy, used by exploratory
> > geeks who don't
> > know the value of a dollar.  I prefer INRIA's utter blandness to
> > ocaml.org's championing of the hacker geek ethic.
>
> No, it suggests that OCaml is a real language that can be
> used to solve real problems quickly,

To you.  And I submit, you are a techie who thinks the word 'hacker' has
positive connotations.  Suits don't see it that way.  Not that I'm a
suit, but I know in their parlance 'hacker' == amatuer.  The less
technical people are, the more negative the word hacker becomes.  My
point is if you want to grow a language base, there are other
demographics to appeal to besides techies.

> > Don't get me started on the Python Software Foundation's
> > utter inability to market anything.
>
> Why should they?  They're not a .com.  Python is doing quite well, I'd
> say.

Sure.  A 2% market share can't be wrong.  ;-)  Beats OCaml by a mile
though.


Cheers,                     www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every           Seattle, WA

"The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
                          - anonymous entrepreneur

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.643 / Virus Database: 411 - Release Date: 3/25/2004

-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

Re: [Caml-list] suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[Kenneth Knowles]

On Tue, Apr 13, 2004 at 04:25:45PM -0700, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> A number of other languages have the features, and some have
> much better libraries, packages, and industrial provenness.  What OCaml
> apparently has is performance.

Haskell is the only non-ML language I am familiar with that has similar features
to OCaml, could you share some others?  I'm always interested in new languages
with advanced safety features.

Kenn

-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

RE: [Caml-list] suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[Brandon J. Van Every]

Kenneth Knowles [mailto:kknowles@berkeley.edu]
> Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> > A number of other languages have the features, and some have
> > much better libraries, packages, and industrial provenness.
> > What OCaml apparently has is performance.
>
> Haskell is the only non-ML language I am familiar with that
> has similar features
> to OCaml, could you share some others?  I'm always interested
> in new languages with advanced safety features.

I suppose I should have said 'many of the features'.  I would note that
industry cares the least about advanced type safety.  C# .NET Managed
Code suffices for now.

OCaml seems to offer a combination that other languages lack in part:
1) garbage collected
2) performance.  Lotsa languages can't manage 1 + 2!
3) native compiled, byte compiled, or scripted
4) type safety
5) high level language primitives
6) functional or imperative


Cheers,                     www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every           Seattle, WA

Taking risk where others will not.

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.643 / Virus Database: 411 - Release Date: 3/25/2004

-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

Re: [Caml-list] suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[Kenneth Knowles]

On Tue, Apr 13, 2004 at 11:26:26PM -0700, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> I suppose I should have said 'many of the features'.  I would note that
> industry cares the least about advanced type safety.  C# .NET Managed
> Code suffices for now.

I certainly agree that the industry doesn't seem to care about safety.  And
their products reflect it, including my own.  (Don't tell my boss I said that
:-)

For me, the type safety and extremely powerful data structures and syntax of
OCaml are why I don't use Scheme, and so I take them as fairly defining traits.
Haskell is the only other major player in my book. 

C#?  I do like it better than Java, and I'm sure it will spread, but anything
without first-class functions (delegates are close, but syntactic abominations -
anonymous inner classes are even more awful) and parametric polymorphism is like
working in the stone age - its not like ML is new.  

Kenn
 
> OCaml seems to offer a combination that other languages lack in part:
> 1) garbage collected
> 2) performance.  Lotsa languages can't manage 1 + 2!
> 3) native compiled, byte compiled, or scripted
> 4) type safety
> 5) high level language primitives
> 6) functional or imperative
> 
> 
> Cheers,                     www.indiegamedesign.com
> Brandon Van Every           Seattle, WA
> 
> Taking risk where others will not.
> 
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.643 / Virus Database: 411 - Release Date: 3/25/2004
> 
> -------------------
> To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

Re: [Caml-list] suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[Kenneth Knowles]

On Wed, Apr 14, 2004 at 09:08:41AM +0200, Michal Moskal wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 13, 2004 at 11:32:14PM -0700, Kenneth Knowles wrote:
> > C#?  I do like it better than Java, and I'm sure it will spread, but anything
> > without first-class functions (delegates are close, but syntactic abominations -
> > anonymous inner classes are even more awful) and parametric polymorphism is like
> > working in the stone age - its not like ML is new. 
> 
> <marketing mode on> http://nemerle.org anyone? ;-) </>

Cool.  I forgot to mention type inference, which is mandatory.  I'm such a
nitpicker that the if/when/unless nonorthogonality already bugs me.  I like the
dropping of the "new" keyword.

On the .Net platform, SML.Net seems out of date, and F# seems relegated to the
role of research project, so I may actually refer my .Net buddies to this.
Another issue with F# is lack of integration into the visual studio; how does
nemerle stack up with regard to using a "typical" windows toolchain?

What about use with ASP.Net?  I don't really know how the backend of the ASP.Net
build process works, but if I could use Nemerle without having to convince
anyone in my office (in the files I have sole dominion over) that would be
great.

Kenn

-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

Re: [Caml-list] suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[skaller]

On Wed, 2004-04-14 at 15:34, Kenneth Knowles wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 13, 2004 at 04:25:45PM -0700, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> > A number of other languages have the features, and some have
> > much better libraries, packages, and industrial provenness.  What OCaml
> > apparently has is performance.
> 
> Haskell is the only non-ML language I am familiar with that has similar features
> to OCaml, could you share some others?  I'm always interested in new languages
> with advanced safety features.

You could look at Felix .. if you really are interested
in a new (pre-alpha) language. You won't find 'advanced safety',
heck, even Ocaml doesn't have "20 years old" safety
features like referential transparency ***

If you want high performance and ease of integration
with existing C/C++ code, you may be interest though.

The main theoretical constraint at the moment is that
polymorphism is compile time only.

***  Felix functions may not have side-effects,
however functions can depend on variables.

-- 
John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net
voice: 061-2-9660-0850, 
snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia
Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net



-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

Re: [Caml-list] suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[John Goerzen]

On Tue, Apr 13, 2004 at 09:32:26PM -0700, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> > No, it suggests that OCaml is a real language that can be
> > used to solve real problems quickly,
> 
> To you.  And I submit, you are a techie who thinks the word 'hacker' has
> positive connotations.  Suits don't see it that way.  Not that I'm a

Sure, but -- who gives a damn?  The site is clearly aimed at programmers
who will understand.  Your argument sounds like saying Slashdot is
poorly marketed to suits because its slogan mentions "nerds".  That's
true, but irrelevant; Slashdot isn't *trying* to attract suits.

> point is if you want to grow a language base, there are other
> demographics to appeal to besides techies.

Are you sure?  Every place I've been -- large and small -- the
decision-makers certainly sought the input of techies and, if the suits
were making choices on language selection at all, were certainly not
doing it by viewing a single web site.

> > Why should they?  They're not a .com.  Python is doing quite well, I'd
> > say.
> 
> Sure.  A 2% market share can't be wrong.  ;-)  Beats OCaml by a mile
> though.

You have no idea what the Python "market share" is, and also have shown
no reason why it's relevant anyway.  How do you define market share for
something that is not sold, and thus has no "market" in the conventional
sense to begin with?

Sure, Python (or Perl) is going to appear to be a lot lower than .NET
and VB if you go by units sold.  That does not mean it is less popular
or less useful.  It also is misleading; VB has a 0% market share among
Unix programmers.

-- John

-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

Re: [Caml-list] suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[Richard Jones]

On Wed, Apr 14, 2004 at 01:00:11AM +0200, Christophe TROESTLER wrote:
> [...] (some people were ready to give machines and maintenance
> time as I understood it).

Yup.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones. http://www.annexia.org/ http://www.j-london.com/
Merjis Ltd. http://www.merjis.com/ - improving website return on investment
PTHRLIB is a library for writing small, efficient and fast servers in C.
HTTP, CGI, DBI, lightweight threads: http://www.annexia.org/freeware/pthrlib/

-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

Re: [Caml-list] suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[Kenneth Knowles]

On Wed, Apr 14, 2004 at 09:12:44PM +1000, skaller wrote:
> > Haskell is the only non-ML language I am familiar with that has similar features
> > to OCaml, could you share some others?  I'm always interested in new languages
> > with advanced safety features.
> 
> You could look at Felix .. if you really are interested
> in a new (pre-alpha) language. You won't find 'advanced safety',
> heck, even Ocaml doesn't have "20 years old" safety
> features like referential transparency ***

In fact, I took a look at Felix pretty soon after starting up with OCaml.  I'm
surprised I forgot it.  In my eyes it is a lot like Nemerle that it is chock
full of good language features (including some lacking in OCaml), with a curly
brace syntax.  If I were in a C++ shop rather than a web shop I'd certainly be
lobbying for it. 

Kenn

-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

Re: [Caml-list] suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[Matt Gushee]

On Wed, Apr 14, 2004 at 10:14:14AM -0500, John Goerzen wrote:
> > 
> > To you.  And I submit, you are a techie who thinks the word 'hacker' has
> > positive connotations.  Suits don't see it that way.  Not that I'm a
> 
> Sure, but -- who gives a damn?  The site is clearly aimed at programmers
> who will understand.  Your argument sounds like saying Slashdot is
> poorly marketed to suits because its slogan mentions "nerds".  That's
> true, but irrelevant; Slashdot isn't *trying* to attract suits.

You're comparing pears and pineapples. Although I suppose Slashdot could
be construed as representing "geek opinion," it is very clearly a site
*for* expressing opinions, and has no strong connection with any
particular technology or technical sub-community. Whereas ocaml.org
appears to (note "appears to," not "does") the public face of OCaml, a
technology that most of us would like to see more widely adopted.

Think of it this way: suppose you were a manager, and you overheard a
small group of your employees making derogatory comments about you or
your company. They weren't talking *to* you, but so what? You heard
them, and their remarks will naturally affect your judgment of them.
Similarly, people will form opinions of the OCaml community based on
what they see at ocaml.org, whether or not they are the intended
audience.

It's really unfortunate that the perfectly good word "hacker" has,
mainly due to journalistic ignorance, taken on negative connotations,
but it definitely has. People should be free to speak out on matters of
principle, but I don't see that there's any very important principle at
stake in using that word. And OCamlers are, after all, a very small
group. We need to pick our battles wisely.

> Are you sure?  Every place I've been -- large and small -- the
> decision-makers certainly sought the input of techies and, if the suits
> were making choices on language selection at all, were certainly not
> doing it by viewing a single web site.

Okay, you've got a point there. But a single Web site can nonetheless
influence their opinions.

-- 
Matt Gushee                 When a nation follows the Way,
Englewood, Colorado, USA    Horses bear manure through
mgushee@havenrock.com           its fields;
http://www.havenrock.com/   When a nation ignores the Way,
                            Horses bear soldiers through
                                its streets.
                                
                            --Lao Tzu (Peter Merel, trans.)

-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

RE: [Caml-list] suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[Brandon J. Van Every]

John Goerzen wrote:
> Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> > John Goerzen wrote:
> > >
> > > [Regarding the slogan, "The programming tool of choice
> > > for discriminating hackers"]
> > >
> > > No, it suggests that OCaml is a real language that can be
> > > used to solve real problems quickly,
> >
> > To you.  And I submit, you are a techie who thinks the word
> > 'hacker' has
> > positive connotations.  Suits don't see it that way.  Not that I'm a
>
> Sure, but -- who gives a damn?

Clearly not you.  Since you're not interested in entertaining the
perspective of target demographics other than your own, I don't see a
reason to belabor explaining anything to you.  You won't listen.

> The site is clearly aimed at programmers who will understand.

If one wants to grow a language base, why should it be so narrowly
aimed?

> > Sure.  A 2% market share can't be wrong.  ;-)  Beats OCaml by a mile
> > though.
>
> You have no idea what the Python "market share" is,

One point of data:
http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
There are others.  You can Google for them yourself.  If you actually
want to know, it's knowable.  The ballpark is certainly correct: try
going to Monster.com and searching for Python jobs.  ;-)  Now try OCaml.
;-) ;-)


Cheers,                     www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every           Seattle, WA

When no one else sells courage, supply and demand take hold.

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.643 / Virus Database: 411 - Release Date: 3/25/2004

-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

Re: [Caml-list] suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[John Goerzen]

On Wed, Apr 14, 2004 at 11:16:02AM -0700, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> John Goerzen wrote:
> > > To you.  And I submit, you are a techie who thinks the word
> > > 'hacker' has
> > > positive connotations.  Suits don't see it that way.  Not that I'm a
> >
> > Sure, but -- who gives a damn?
> 
> Clearly not you.  Since you're not interested in entertaining the
> perspective of target demographics other than your own, I don't see a
> reason to belabor explaining anything to you.  You won't listen.

Nope, that's not what I'm saying.  What I am saying is that you are
poking at OCaml.org, complaining that it doesn't target suits.  Well, it
doesn't *try* to target suits; it's targeting techies, so I don't see
the problem.  I think it's fine to also target suits, but if a single
site tries to reach everyone, it will wind up doing a poor job for any
one particular interest.

> > The site is clearly aimed at programmers who will understand.
> 
> If one wants to grow a language base, why should it be so narrowly
> aimed?

I don't think there's a real problem with aiming at the people that will
actually use it.  Granted, hackers only make up part of the OCaml
community; they may in fact be a minority compared to the scientists and
mathematicians using OCaml.  But I would suspect those audiences also
can find something of value on ocaml.org.

The point about the news freshness is indeed quite important; nobody
wants to use a language that is dying.

> > > Sure.  A 2% market share can't be wrong.  ;-)  Beats OCaml by a mile
> > > though.
> >
> > You have no idea what the Python "market share" is,
> 
> One point of data:
> http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
> There are others.  You can Google for them yourself.  If you actually
> want to know, it's knowable.  The ballpark is certainly correct: try
> going to Monster.com and searching for Python jobs.  ;-)  Now try OCaml.
> ;-) ;-)

Well, we're verging on being off-topic here, but yes, I know Python is
more popular than OCaml.  Neither the tiobe.com nor search engines
produces a very reliable number, though; a valid survey would likely be
required to do that.

-- John

-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

Re: [Caml-list] suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[Xavier Leroy]

> The domain will be available in a little more than one month (if Mr J
> Assange really lost interest, he will not renew it).  Maybe one should
> consider buying it, or rather -- to avoid the same thing to happen
> again -- it may be better that INRIA buys it and gives it back to the
> community (some people were ready to give machines and maintenance
> time as I understood it).
>
> P.S.  Maybe someone in AU should consider trying to join Mr J Assange
> on the phone (+61.398188888)?

Please don't bother Julian.  He contacted me recently about
transferring the ownership of ocaml.org to INRIA before the current
registration expires.  In parallel, Vincent Simonet and Maxence
Guesdon are working on a (long overdue) redesign of the
caml.inria.fr/www.caml.org site.  If everything goes well, in the
forthcoming months we should have a good and up-to-date Web site
accessible through the three addresses (ocaml.org, caml.org and
caml.inria.fr).

- Xavier Leroy

-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

Re: [Caml-list] suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[skaller]

On Thu, 2004-04-15 at 02:01, Kenneth Knowles wrote:

> In fact, I took a look at Felix pretty soon after starting up with OCaml.  

>  If I were in a C++ shop rather than a web shop I'd certainly be
> lobbying for it. 

Oh? The cooperative multi-tasking model is particularly 
well suited to web services. 

If you were a TCP/IP expert and kernel hacker,
you could easily make a totally scalable web server.
Currently, Unix sheduling kills servers around
100K connections. My Linux box can handle 1 million 
Felix threads no worries :D

All that is needed is to hook all the traffic on port 80,
eliminating the major bottleneck -- sockets.

-- 
John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net
voice: 061-2-9660-0850, 
snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia
Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net



-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners

Re: [Caml-list] suggestion: do not link to www.ocaml.org

[Kenneth Knowles]

On Thu, Apr 15, 2004 at 10:32:22AM +1000, skaller wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-04-15 at 02:01, Kenneth Knowles wrote:
> 
> > In fact, I took a look at Felix pretty soon after starting up with OCaml.  
> 
> >  If I were in a C++ shop rather than a web shop I'd certainly be
> > lobbying for it. 
> 
> Oh? The cooperative multi-tasking model is particularly 
> well suited to web services. 

I mostly mean that we are an MS-oriented, generally conservative shop where the
most probably *social* move is to get them to use a nicer .Net language.  

Goal: extreme type-safety, powerful data structures
Problem: microsoft addiction and programming conservativism.

Performance is not an issue for us, servers are cheapers than programmers.

Kenn

-------------------
To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners