[Caml-list] OCaml development site

[Caml-list] OCaml development site

[Christophe TROESTLER]

Hi,

Richard Jones and myself are thinking about setting up a collaborative
development site for OCaml projects.  Not only this can show to the
world how active the OCaml community is [and to prevent code from
disappearing when the developer is not interested in maintaining it
anymore] but also serve as a base for a CPAN-like repository.

Before engaging into the work of setting it up, we would like to have
some feedback from you:

* If such a site existed, would you move your project(s) to it
  (tarballs, documentation, CVS,...)?

* Are you interested that such a site provides some documentation to
  help you package your software?  (To GODI and Debian maintainers:
  would you be willing to contribute to it?)

* Do you prefer a Savanah like interface (https://savannah.gnu.org/)
  or a GForge one (http://gforge.org/) or ...?

* Are the services provided by these tools enough for you?  If not,
  please be specific.

* Are some people interested in setting up a mirror?

ChriS

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Re: [Caml-list] OCaml development site

[John Goerzen]

On Fri, May 07, 2004 at 12:44:19PM +0200, Christophe TROESTLER wrote:
> Before engaging into the work of setting it up, we would like to have
> some feedback from you:

Sounds like a great idea!

> * If such a site existed, would you move your project(s) to it
>   (tarballs, documentation, CVS,...)?

I'd put the releases there if it was easy.  If it took lots of time,
making me go to a website and login somewhere (I don't usually work with
a browser open, and would prefer scriptable command-line tools), I'd
probably not do so as often.  Here's one brainstorm:

Authors could upload a tar.gz and a GPG signature file.  Your software
could compare the tar.gz to the list of authorized authors, and then
place both in whatever download area (so the sig serves as both
authentication for uploads and a verification method for end users).

There could be a standard for naming documentation within a tarball.
For instance, if everyone uses docs/html, then you could just pull out
the latest docs after each upload.

I would not store CVS there since I use Arch.  I personally wouldn't
store Arch stuff there either; I already have my own repositories.

> * Are you interested that such a site provides some documentation to
>   help you package your software?  (To GODI and Debian maintainers:
>   would you be willing to contribute to it?)

I'm not quite sure what you're looking for here...  do you mean:

1. Information for new OCaml authors on writing Makefiles (or whatever)
   to build their programs/libraries?

2. Information for new OCaml authors on making their packages build
   on GODI or Debian?

3. Information for packagers on making others' packages build
   on GODI or Debian?

I'd say #1 is quite useful, and #2 could be for GODI at least.  However,
in general, instead of documenting existing procdures, I'd rather see
some effort go into designing new procedures that are easier to use.

> * Do you prefer a Savanah like interface (https://savannah.gnu.org/)
>   or a GForge one (http://gforge.org/) or ...?

As a developer, I want something I can drive from a command line and
automate.  I don't mind having to log in somewhere if I can do it from a
command line.  I definately don't want to have to log in to a web site
to post stuff, check bugs, etc.

So, I say neither.

> * Are the services provided by these tools enough for you?  If not,
>   please be specific.

I'm not sure that a SourceForge derivative is really the right tool for
a CPAN alternative.  Those tools are more designed to facilitate
development of individual projects rather than to facilitate managing a
massive repository of related projects.

> * Are some people interested in setting up a mirror?

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Re: [Caml-list] OCaml development site

[Nicolas Cannasse]

> Richard Jones and myself are thinking about setting up a collaborative
> development site for OCaml projects.  Not only this can show to the
> world how active the OCaml community is [and to prevent code from
> disappearing when the developer is not interested in maintaining it
> anymore] but also serve as a base for a CPAN-like repository.

My two cents : don't try to think everything before starting it, work
incrementaly.
First setup a -free- minimal service : allow users to create CVS repository,
home page, and mailing list, on a project basis. Add also a mailing list for
the global service where can be discussed later things such as package
naming, versionning, "global" repositry.... , and then add features when you
fell there is consensus to get them added.
Getting user to choose either SForge or GForge , then either CVS or SVN,
.... will start endless flames between proponents of each system : nothing
constructive here :)

Regards,
Nicolas Cannasse

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Re: [Caml-list] OCaml development site

[Richard Jones]

On Fri, May 07, 2004 at 06:31:41AM -0500, John Goerzen wrote:
> > * Are the services provided by these tools enough for you?  If not,
> >   please be specific.
> 
> I'm not sure that a SourceForge derivative is really the right tool for
> a CPAN alternative.  Those tools are more designed to facilitate
> development of individual projects rather than to facilitate managing a
> massive repository of related projects.

Yup, I think the idea is a little different from CPAN.  It's more like
an alternative place to host projects which isn't Savannah (because of
its well-publicised failures) or Sourceforge (depends on a company
which may well go out of business).

Of course, a CPAN-like repository could also happen, but I guess it
would have to be part of GODI now, with a way to upload source code as
well.

Rich.

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Re: [Caml-list] OCaml development site

[Olivier Grisel]

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Richard Jones a écrit :
|
|
| Yup, I think the idea is a little different from CPAN.  It's more like
| an alternative place to host projects which isn't Savannah (because of
| its well-publicised failures) or Sourceforge (depends on a company
| which may well go out of business).
|
| Of course, a CPAN-like repository could also happen, but I guess it
| would have to be part of GODI now, with a way to upload source code as
| well.

I think this is a really nice initiative. IMHO what the ocaml community
needs is a central place to share documentation and tools for ocaml
programming. A GForge/Savanne infrastruture is a good start but one
would additionally need a central website/wiki to help users/developers
to contribute documentation, tutorials, and so on. This wiki could host
an OCaml Programming Cookbook for instance.

Another important feature request is the possibility to organise SIGs
(Special Interest Groups) on topics such as crossplatform development,
build systems, networking, XML, databases, Internationalization (UTF-8),
web and webservices, GUI, mathematics and logics ... This would help the
OCaml community to struture itself into hierarchicaly specialised
sub-communities with their own mailing-list and wiki. Hopefully it would
enable constructive interactions between developers working on the same
area. A good example of SIGs management is the Python website :
http://python.org/sigs/ .

On a more practical viewpoint: have you heard about Trac
(http://www.edgewall.com/products/trac/ )? Trac is a collaborative
development plateform based on python, subversion (arch and CVS support
is planned) and sqlite. It features an enhanced wiki integrated with
bug/issue tracker and version control system. The screenshots page gives
a nice overview:
http://www.edgewall.com/products/trac/screenshots.html
The Trac development itself uses this platform:
http://projects.edgewall.com/trac/wiki/

Best,
- --
Olivier

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Re: [Caml-list] OCaml development site

[Gerd Stolpmann]

On Fre, 2004-05-07 at 13:56, Richard Jones wrote:
> On Fri, May 07, 2004 at 06:31:41AM -0500, John Goerzen wrote:
> > > * Are the services provided by these tools enough for you?  If not,
> > >   please be specific.
> > 
> > I'm not sure that a SourceForge derivative is really the right tool for
> > a CPAN alternative.  Those tools are more designed to facilitate
> > development of individual projects rather than to facilitate managing a
> > massive repository of related projects.
> 
> Yup, I think the idea is a little different from CPAN.  It's more like
> an alternative place to host projects which isn't Savannah (because of
> its well-publicised failures) or Sourceforge (depends on a company
> which may well go out of business).
> 
> Of course, a CPAN-like repository could also happen, but I guess it
> would have to be part of GODI now, with a way to upload source code as
> well.

I would be quite glad if it were not part of GODI. Hosting projects is
something different than hosting packages for a certain package manager.
And currently, GODI does not have the capacity to do all. I am also
convinced that the integrated CPAN way is not the right way for ocaml,
it is too complex for a non-scripting language.

Gerd
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------
Gerd Stolpmann * Viktoriastr. 45 * 64293 Darmstadt * Germany 
gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de          http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de
------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: [Caml-list] OCaml development site

[Christophe TROESTLER]

On Fri, 7 May 2004, Richard Jones <rich@annexia.org> wrote:
> 
> Of course, a CPAN-like repository could also happen, but I guess it
> would have to be part of GODI now, with a way to upload source code
> as well.

My aim was to try to outline what it could become rather than to say
that it will be there from the start.  It is because I feel that with
some help/advice from maintainers, the packaging could be done (almost?)
automatically (after some initial effort of course)...

ChriS

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Re: [Caml-list] OCaml development site

[John Goerzen]

On Fri, May 07, 2004 at 01:48:32PM +0200, Nicolas Cannasse wrote:
> > Richard Jones and myself are thinking about setting up a collaborative
> > development site for OCaml projects.  Not only this can show to the
> > world how active the OCaml community is [and to prevent code from
> > disappearing when the developer is not interested in maintaining it
> > anymore] but also serve as a base for a CPAN-like repository.
> 
> My two cents : don't try to think everything before starting it, work
> incrementaly.
> First setup a -free- minimal service : allow users to create CVS repository,
> home page, and mailing list, on a project basis. Add also a mailing list for

That's true, but my take is a little different.

Let's first make a general repository.  Something like CPAN, maybe,
where as long as people follow a few simple structuring conventions,
they can upload something and make it easily accessible to everyone.
Maybe GODI could be a starting point; maybe not.  My perception of GODI
-- and this may or may not be true -- is that it is a cathedral-style
operation, where central gatekeepers review and approve contributions
(and it requires knowledge of its build system).  Make it more open to
start with.

I don't see a lot of utility in Yet Another *forge.  Yes, problems exist
with the existing forges, whether they be SourceForge, Savannah, Alioth,
or whatever.  Maintaining a system like that is a complex task, and
making it "suck less" than the existing ones will mean starting up with
a real mirror network, redundant servers, backups, etc.  I guess I'm
just not convinced that 1) there's a real need for this, and 2) we (the
OCaml people) can do it better.  This isn't a personal insult to those
who are proposing the project at all; the best of admins have their
hands full maintaining one of these things.

If you are looking for a ready-made alternative to SourceForge and
Savannah, check out http://alioth.debian.org/.  It's a GForge
installation, and although run by Debian, is open to everyone in the
same spirit as the original SourceForge.  

Alioth has had, to my knowledge, one brief outage that was preventative
in nature to make sure it was not affected by a breakin that occured on
some Debian machines.  I believe this was less serious than some of the
outages suffered by SourceForge or Savannah, where some services stay
broken for weeks a a time.

-- John

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Re: [Caml-list] OCaml development site

[Nicolas Cannasse]

> > > Richard Jones and myself are thinking about setting up a collaborative
> > > development site for OCaml projects.  Not only this can show to the
> > > world how active the OCaml community is [and to prevent code from
> > > disappearing when the developer is not interested in maintaining it
> > > anymore] but also serve as a base for a CPAN-like repository.
> >
> > My two cents : don't try to think everything before starting it, work
> > incrementaly.
> > First setup a -free- minimal service : allow users to create CVS
repository,
> > home page, and mailing list, on a project basis. Add also a mailing list
for
>
> That's true, but my take is a little different.

I think you didn't understood my point. I said that the OCaml community
maybe doesn't need a full-featured SourceForge yet, and that's a mailling
list and CVS server is more easy to setup and manage, and would be enough -
maybe I'm wrong... I wasn't at all thinking that we need to develop our own
SourceForge (or whatever).

Nicolas Cannasse

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Re: [Caml-list] OCaml development site

[Richard Jones]

On Fri, May 07, 2004 at 05:07:27PM +0200, Nicolas Cannasse wrote:
> I think you didn't understood my point. I said that the OCaml community
> maybe doesn't need a full-featured SourceForge yet, and that's a mailling
> list and CVS server is more easy to setup and manage, and would be enough -
> maybe I'm wrong... I wasn't at all thinking that we need to develop our own
> SourceForge (or whatever).

There was no question of actually developing any software.  All we
would do is 'apt-get -t testing gforge'.  The issue that John raises
of how much ongoing maintenance is required for such an enterprise is
of more importance though.

Rich.

-- 
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Merjis Ltd. http://www.merjis.com/ - improving website return on investment
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Re: [Caml-list] OCaml development site

[Richard Jones]

apt-get -t testing install gforge, even.

Rich.

-- 
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Merjis Ltd. http://www.merjis.com/ - improving website return on investment
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response is: "Well, it works fine in practice; but how will it hold up
in theory?"'

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Re: [Caml-list] OCaml development site

[Gerd Stolpmann]

On Fre, 2004-05-07 at 16:53, John Goerzen wrote:
> My perception of GODI
> -- and this may or may not be true -- is that it is a cathedral-style
> operation, where central gatekeepers review and approve contributions
> (and it requires knowledge of its build system).  Make it more open to
> start with.

I really don't understand what you mean. Everybody can get an account
and release packages. (That there is not yet an account request page has
technical reasons, but I hope that an email to the admin, not
gatekeeper, is not a problem in the meantime.)

There is no formal review process, and nobody approves contributions. I
don't even know where you have this idea from. Everybody can release
files, everybody can make changes to work of others. Of course, when you
are working on the GODI server, you are watched, because it is open, and
sometimes there are discussions on godi-list about that, e.g because
something does not work as expected. This is absolutely normal when
working on a shared platform, it is not a private place.

Of course, GODI requires knowledge how to do things with it. Come on, we
are not talking about a toy problem where everything is obvious. But it
is not really difficult to make a GODI package. Algorithm: (1) Look
around which of the released 50 packages is similar to mine (2) Copy
that (3) Change identifiers etc (4) If anything remains open, try to
find it in the documentation or ask on godi-list. There is also the
GODIVA initiative that simplifies package making a lot.

Finally, there are some people (including me) who are more involved into
the project than other people. This is true, but unavoidable because
somebody has to do the work.

Gerd
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------
Gerd Stolpmann * Viktoriastr. 45 * 64293 Darmstadt * Germany 
gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de          http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de
------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: [Caml-list] OCaml development site

[Paul Snively]

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On May 7, 2004, at 4:48 AM, Nicolas Cannasse wrote:

> Getting user to choose either SForge or GForge , then either CVS or 
> SVN,
> .... will start endless flames between proponents of each system : 
> nothing
> constructive here :)
>
I'll immediately add fuel to the nascent fire by pointing out that the 
idea is a great one, but I won't use it if it uses either CVS or 
Subversion. I'll put in a second vote for Arch instead, although darcs 
or monotone would also be nice.

> Regards,
> Nicolas Cannasse
>
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Best regards,
Paul Snively

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Re: [Caml-list] OCaml development site

[sylvain.le-gall]

On Fri, May 07, 2004 at 12:44:19PM +0200, Christophe TROESTLER wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Richard Jones and myself are thinking about setting up a collaborative
> development site for OCaml projects.  Not only this can show to the
> world how active the OCaml community is [and to prevent code from
> disappearing when the developer is not interested in maintaining it
> anymore] but also serve as a base for a CPAN-like repository.
> 
> Before engaging into the work of setting it up, we would like to have
> some feedback from you:
> 
> * If such a site existed, would you move your project(s) to it
>   (tarballs, documentation, CVS,...)?
> 
> * Are you interested that such a site provides some documentation to
>   help you package your software?  (To GODI and Debian maintainers:
>   would you be willing to contribute to it?)
> 
> * Do you prefer a Savanah like interface (https://savannah.gnu.org/)
>   or a GForge one (http://gforge.org/) or ...?
> 
> * Are the services provided by these tools enough for you?  If not,
>   please be specific.
> 
> * Are some people interested in setting up a mirror?
> 

Hello,

Well, i am not a great ocaml programmer, nor a real Debian developper,
but if you set up such a site, i will use it for my own developpement,
providing that i can :
- use a versionning system ( i prefer SVN, but if it CVS, it is also
  good )
- permit to upload tarball
- have a debian repository ( a kind of experimental one, i can give you
  hint how to do this ) 
- permit to download daily/weekly backup of my project ( i like to have
  a backup of dev/ML/html pages )

I can also try to help you setting documentation to do debian packaging
( but i am not that good at writing documentation ).

Anyway, i think it is a really good idea, to gather ocaml developpement
for the sake of simplicity ( having one central site to upload is
better than a lot of small site, not always online et al ).

Kind regard
Sylvain Le Gall

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Re: [Caml-list] OCaml development site

[N. Owen Gunden]

On Fri, May 07, 2004 at 12:44:19PM +0200, Christophe TROESTLER wrote:
> Richard Jones and myself are thinking about setting up a collaborative
> development site for OCaml projects.  Not only this can show to the
> world how active the OCaml community is [and to prevent code from
> disappearing when the developer is not interested in maintaining it
> anymore] but also serve as a base for a CPAN-like repository.

I'm not sure the CPAN-like repository is the right approach.
Introducing a second code distribution platform would create
competition, which in this case is most definitely /not/ healthy,
because there are so few people working on O'Caml packaging now.  A lot
of work has gone into and continues to go into GODI/GODIVA, and a lot of
overlapping work would have to go into this CPAN-like repository.

Will Lovas and I considered designing just such a system way back in
September, and we decided not to for similar reasons.  The reasons are
even more potent now, however, because of all the progress since then.

What has been outlined here and in other threads indicates that many
people do not understand exactly how GODI and GODIVA work.  For example,
it is not cathedral-type development--I know this for sure as I've
released packages through GODI without having to get them reviewed by
the Master.

It has also been suggested to work out a system that can incrementally
be improved.  GODI/GODIVA is such a system.  For example, I would like
to see the hairier parts of GODI (BSD make, pkgsrc) replaced by O'Caml
tools eventually (and I think there are even bugs for this).

My suggestion to anyone wanting to brighten package management and
distribution of O'Caml code is: join godi-list, get a svn account from
Gerd, try to package some things up with GODIVA, and then complain about
what you don't like (or even fix it!).  Help to morph GODI/GODIVA into
the right tool.  I think at this early stage, even seemingly large
design changes are possible, if it is deemed that they are necessary.

Finally, the idea of giving developers a place to host their websites,
cvs accounts, and mailing lists is probably an orthogonal problem to
GODI.  So sure, go ahead with that if you want to.  I warn you that it
seems on this list that O'Caml programmers are very particular about
what revision control system (and probably web tools, etc.) they use, so
may be hard to please a critical mass :).

w00t for $0.02.
 - O

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Re: [Caml-list] OCaml development site

[Benjamin Geer]

N. Owen Gunden wrote:
> a lot of
> overlapping work would have to go into this CPAN-like repository.

To me their proposal seems complementary to GODI.  GODI provides the 
convenience of being able to get a lot of libraries in one place. 
Richard and Christophe's proposed site could be a place where you could 
find a lot of stuff *about* those libraries (mailing lists, 
documentation, development versions) in one place, and with a consistent 
user interface; I think it would be a great service to the community. 
Maybe it could be designed so that it doesn't overlap with GODI, but 
rather cooperates with it.

> I warn you that it
> seems on this list that O'Caml programmers are very particular about
> what revision control system (and probably web tools, etc.) they use, so
> may be hard to please a critical mass :).

Some do feel strongly about such things, but I don't.  Having a site 
where everything worked in a consistent manner for every project would 
be a big benefit for users; that would outweigh any small inconvenience 
for me as a developer.

A Perl developer remarked to me recently that one of the main benefits 
of CPAN is that it encourages Perl developers to look at, and reuse, 
each other's code.

Ben

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Re: [Caml-list] OCaml development site

[Evan Martin]

On Fri, May 07, 2004 at 06:31:41AM -0500, John Goerzen wrote:
> I'd put the releases there if it was easy.  If it took lots of time,
> making me go to a website and login somewhere (I don't usually work with
> a browser open, and would prefer scriptable command-line tools), I'd
> probably not do so as often.  Here's one brainstorm:

Seconded.

> I would not store CVS there since I use Arch.  I personally wouldn't
> store Arch stuff there either; I already have my own repositories.

Thirded.  (But for those unfamiliar with it, supporting arch is no
problem; it just uses HTTP [and sftp for committing].)

> As a developer, I want something I can drive from a command line and
> automate.  I don't mind having to log in somewhere if I can do it from a
> command line.  I definately don't want to have to log in to a web site
> to post stuff, check bugs, etc.

Agreed.  Sourceforge is really painful to use because of this.  I want
to type "upload --project=myproject --package=source foo-0.1.2.tar.gz",
not click through 15 slow HTML forms.

-- 
Evan Martin
martine@danga.com
http://neugierig.org

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Re: [Caml-list] OCaml development site

[Christophe TROESTLER]

On Fri, 07 May 2004, Benjamin Geer <ben@socialtools.net> wrote:
> 
> it doesn't overlap with GODI, but rather cooperates with it.

Let me emphasize: we do NOT want to compete with GODI, Debian
packaging,...  But with a critical mass of software gathered at one
place, LINKS to packaging systems (and how to use them) could benefit
users and developers alike IMHO.

ChriS

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Re: [Caml-list] OCaml development site

[Kenneth Knowles]

On Fri, May 07, 2004 at 12:44:19PM +0200, Christophe TROESTLER wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Richard Jones and myself are thinking about setting up a collaborative
> development site for OCaml projects.  Not only this can show to the
> world how active the OCaml community is [and to prevent code from
> disappearing when the developer is not interested in maintaining it
> anymore] but also serve as a base for a CPAN-like repository.
>
> Before engaging into the work of setting it up, we would like to have
> some feedback from you:
> 
> * If such a site existed, would you move your project(s) to it
>   (tarballs, documentation, CVS,...)?

I would be interested in hosting such things, for the social reasons outlined.
Also, having mailing list and bug tracking would be cool (everything else I can
do trivially with my existing webhosting)

Since CVS/SVN/arch/darcs have been debated a bit, I'll point out I use darcs,
and would snapshot the tree to this CPAN-like thing daily or some such.
 
> * Do you prefer a Savanah like interface (https://savannah.gnu.org/)
>   or a GForge one (http://gforge.org/) or ...?

I've never used either very much.  Savannah looks nice,  But I'm not picky.

If mirroring is made trivial, I offer bandwidth.

Kenn

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Re: [Caml-list] OCaml development site

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Fri, May 07, 2004 at 12:44:19PM +0200, Christophe TROESTLER wrote:
> * Are you interested that such a site provides some documentation to
>   help you package your software?  (To GODI and Debian maintainers:
>   would you be willing to contribute to it?)

I don't see the point in setting up just another *forge, plenty of them
have been already mentioned in this thread. I thus think that the
interesting part of this project is the ocaml specific part and IMO that
part can't be only "let's collect all ocaml related projects/library on
a single server".

 From your post I still don't see which ocaml specific features are you
going to develop as a part of the infrastructure you're proposing.
Still, as a debian developer, I think that a crucial one will be a
common dependency handling between programs and libraries shared by all
the underlaying package management system (RPM, DEB, GODI, ...).

I'm not yet familiar with GODI, but I've in mind to look at it to see if
debian packages could be genered from GODI description or the other way
round. It would be great if, as a part of your infrastructure, we can
manage to develop some package description format (maybe those of
GODIVA? don't know), from which all different "spec" files could be
generated. This is a part of the project in which I, and probably the
other ocaml involved debian developer are interested to partecipate in.

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -*- Computer Science PhD student @ Uny Bologna, Italy
zack@{cs.unibo.it,debian.org,bononia.it} -%- http://www.bononia.it/zack/
If there's any real truth it's that the entire multidimensional infinity
of the Universe is almost certainly being run by a bunch of maniacs. -!-

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Re: [Caml-list] OCaml development site

[Jean-Christophe Filliatre]

Christophe TROESTLER writes:
 > 
 > Richard Jones and myself are thinking about setting up a collaborative
 > development site for OCaml projects.  Not only this can show to the
 > world how active the OCaml community is [and to prevent code from
 > disappearing when the developer is not interested in maintaining it
 > anymore] but also serve as a base for a CPAN-like repository.

I would be glad to upload tarballs and documentation of my ocaml stuff
to such  a web  site but I  would not  put my CVS  development sources
there.

The idea of centralizing the  tarballs is good (having the ocaml users
contributions spread  all over homepages  is definitely an  issue) and
would ease  the use of  GODI (since most  if not all GODI  specs could
point to a unique web site).

Only  hosting  tarballs  and  documentation  should not  be  too  much
maintenance work;  if someone really needs  something like sourceforge
to host  his development  sources, he can  still use  it independently
(and then upload tarballs somewhere else when ready).

-- 
Jean-Christophe Filliâtre (http://www.lri.fr/~filliatr)

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