From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F31DD55E for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:22:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sdmx1.scea.com (sdmx1.scea.com [160.33.44.36]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j6RLMNPk026998 for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:22:24 +0200 Received: from edenfox.989studios.com (edenfox.989studios.com [160.33.45.60]) by sdmx1.scea.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j6RLMM2i006417 for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:22:22 -0700 X-Envelope-From: X-Envelope-To: Received: from slave-dog.naughtydog.com (intmail.naughtydog.com [10.15.0.2]) by edenfox.989studios.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SCEAint-1.0) with SMTP id j6RLMJdF003464 for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:22:19 -0700 Received: from SMTP agent by mail gateway Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:15:49 -0800 Received: from katn-dog.naughtydog.com (engstad@katn-dog.naughtydog.com [10.0.0.90]) by slave-dog.naughtydog.com (SGI-8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id j6RLDf6313579942; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:13:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Pal-Kristian Engstad Organization: Naughty Dog, Inc. To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Caml-list] How to do this properly with OCaml? Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:13:40 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 Cc: skaller , xm@xmunkki.org, Brian Hurt References: <20050726013444.GA32493@xmunkki.org> <1122484910.6768.133.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1122484910.6768.133.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200507271413.41026.pal_engstad@naughtydog.com> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 160.33.44.36 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 160.33.45.59 X-BorderEnvelope-To: X-Miltered: at nez-perce with ID 42E7FB0F.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr)! X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 ocaml:01 interfacing:01 o'caml:01 minor:01 low-level:01 simd:01 byte:01 alignment:01 unboxed:01 threading:01 renders:01 ocaml:01 pke:01 mrengstad:01 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on yquem.inria.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.6 required=5.0 tests=PORN_URL_MISC autolearn=disabled version=3.0.3 On Wednesday 27 July 2005 10:21 am, skaller wrote: > Just an aside-- but this is why > most games are utter crap. The developers have no idea > how to develop high level code, so they focus on weenie > details of graphics, and as a result we have stunning > high performance motion interfacing to the most banal > rubbish I have ever seen. As time goes by things just > seem to get worse. Hi, Skaller, that's one of the most sweeping generalizations I have ever seen. Exactly what kind of games are you talking about? The gaming industry is big - I believe the latest=20 numbers indicate that we're bigger than the movie industry=20 w.r.t to earnings. I've been looking into O'Caml, and I've written some tools in it (caml is great for tools), but here's a couple of points=20 against it: 1. It doesn't support console platforms. - The PC market is quite minor compared to consoles. 2. It doesn't support low-level constructs. - No SIMD (AltiVec/VMX) vector operations. - No explicit assignment of (bit and byte) offsets=20 within a record. - No explicit alignment specification. - No inline assembly. 3. There is no controlled real-time GC.=20 - GC needs to run between frames,=20 and only for a controlled amount of time. 4. There is no real support for unboxed data-types. - This one is actually very important for consoles. =46or game-code (AI, behaviors, etc.), it is better suited,=20 though the GC issue is there. But it doesn't support much=20 of threading - be it through pthreads or cooperatively -=20 which renders it unusable to us.=20 So in the end, ... ocaml is nice as a tool, but it is by far=20 not usable for the game console world. So, I guess we'll stick=20 with C++ for a while... Thanks, PKE. =2D-=20 _ =20 \`. P=E5l-Kristian Engstad, Lead Programmer, \ `| Naughty Dog, Inc., 1601 Cloverfield Blvd, 6000 North, __\ |`. Santa Monica, CA 90404, USA. (310) 633-9112.=20 / /o mailto:engstad@naughtydog.com http://www.naughtydog.com / '~ mailto:mrengstad@yahoo.com http://www.engstad.com / ,' Hang-gliding Rulez! ~'