caml-list - the Caml user's mailing list
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: Kuba Ober <ober.14@osu.edu>
To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] thousands of CPU cores
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:39:51 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <200807151039.51519.ober.14@osu.edu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <200807101500.03079.jon@ffconsultancy.com>

> > It is a stop-gap solution...
>
> That is not true. Many-core machines will always be decomposed into
> shared-memory clusters of as many cores as possible because shared memory
> parallelism will always be orders of magnitude more efficient than
> distributed parallelism.

The way "shared memory" on today's systems is implemented in hardware is
already by essentially message passing. It's just that hardcoded logic does it
all and provides an impression of shared memory, rather than having software
deal with it.

The fact that the software sees it as shared memory doesn't change the fact
that at current system bandwidths we've already run into physical 
implementation limits that make the smooth, fully-random-access memory
a mere illusion. When you read a single uncached byte out of RAM,
there's a big bunch of housekeeping and what-amounts-to-transactional
processing done at the hardware level.

If you count the "efficiency" of such out-of-the-blue uncached truly random
access in terms of clock cycles, current hardware may be 1-2 orders of
magnitude less efficient than almost any 8-bit microcontroller out there...
On most MCUs you can read a random byte out of the SRAM in say 1-4 clock
cycles. On your commonplace modern multicore CPU, it may take a hundred clock
cycles to do the same, and essentially the same amount of time in terms of the
wall clock (a 2GHz CPU has only 100 times faster clock than a run of the mill
20MHz MCU).

What I'm trying to say is that such random, small memory accesses highlight
the inherent message passing / transactional overhead of the hardware
implementation. Those overheads amortize when you run real number tasks,
not a made-up cold single byte access of course. But they are there.

It's akin to mmaped file: you can use CPU's MMU to implement it in the 
usual OS/stock hardware framework, or you can have an FPGA handle memory
transactions and talk directly to the hard drive. It doesn't change the
fact that it's still a mmaped file :)

Cheers, Kuba


  parent reply	other threads:[~2008-07-15 14:39 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 73+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2008-07-10  5:57 J C
2008-07-10  6:15 ` [Caml-list] " Erik de Castro Lopo
2008-07-10 12:47   ` Oliver Bandel
2008-07-10 13:48     ` Hezekiah M. Carty
2008-07-10 11:35 ` Jon Harrop
2008-07-14 11:32   ` J C
2008-07-14 12:08     ` Jon Harrop
2008-07-14 17:04       ` Mike Lin
2008-07-14 17:28         ` Jon Harrop
2008-07-14 17:16       ` Richard Jones
2008-07-10 13:21 ` Jon Harrop
2008-07-10 13:44 ` Peng Zang
2008-07-10 14:00   ` Jon Harrop
2008-07-10 22:25     ` Richard Jones
2008-07-10 23:04       ` Jon Harrop
2008-07-10 23:41         ` Oliver Bandel
2008-07-11  0:17           ` Oliver Bandel
2008-07-11  9:30             ` Richard Jones
2008-09-21 19:05               ` Michaël Grünewald
2008-09-21 21:41                 ` Jon Harrop
2008-09-22  7:51                   ` Alan Schmitt
2008-09-22 19:03                     ` Jon Harrop
2008-09-22 19:49                       ` David Teller
2008-09-23  6:42                       ` kirillkh
2008-09-24 13:30                       ` [Caml-list] Link tracking Chris Clearwater
2008-09-24 15:43                         ` Jon Harrop
2008-07-11 14:53     ` [Caml-list] thousands of CPU cores Peng Zang
2008-07-15 14:39     ` Kuba Ober [this message]
2008-07-19 12:41       ` Oliver Bandel
2008-07-10 19:15 ` Gerd Stolpmann
2008-07-10 20:07   ` Sylvain Le Gall
2008-07-10 20:24     ` [Caml-list] " Gerd Stolpmann
2008-07-10 21:02       ` Sylvain Le Gall
2008-07-10 21:19         ` [Caml-list] " Gerd Stolpmann
2008-07-10 21:35           ` Jon Harrop
2008-07-10 22:39             ` Gerd Stolpmann
2008-07-15 15:57           ` Kuba Ober
2008-07-15 18:03             ` Gerd Stolpmann
2008-07-15 19:23               ` Adrien
2008-07-15 19:45                 ` Adrien
2008-07-16  8:59               ` Michaël Grünewald
2008-07-16 16:43                 ` Gerd Stolpmann
2008-07-16 11:46               ` Richard Jones
2008-07-16 18:35                 ` Erik de Castro Lopo
2008-07-17 12:48               ` Kuba Ober
2008-07-15 15:21       ` Kuba Ober
2008-07-10 20:48     ` Basile STARYNKEVITCH
2008-07-10 21:12       ` Jon Harrop
2008-07-10 23:33   ` [Caml-list] " Oliver Bandel
2008-07-10 23:43     ` Oliver Bandel
2008-07-11  6:26     ` Sylvain Le Gall
2008-07-11  8:50       ` [Caml-list] " Jon Harrop
2008-07-11  9:29         ` Sylvain Le Gall
2008-07-15 16:01           ` [Caml-list] " Kuba Ober
2008-07-13  3:17         ` Code Mobility [was Re: thousands of CPU cores] Robert Fischer
2008-07-11  3:01   ` [Caml-list] thousands of CPU cores Brian Hurt
2008-07-11 13:01     ` Gerd Stolpmann
2008-07-11 13:43       ` Jon Harrop
2008-07-11 14:03         ` Basile STARYNKEVITCH
2008-07-11 15:08           ` Jon Harrop
2008-07-11 17:28           ` Jon Harrop
2008-07-11 17:54         ` Richard Jones
2008-07-11 18:30           ` Raoul Duke
2008-07-12 17:35       ` Brian Hurt
2008-07-11 15:01     ` Peng Zang
2008-07-12  0:23       ` Oliver Bandel
2008-07-12 22:54         ` J C
2008-07-19 12:06           ` Oliver Bandel
2008-07-11 14:06 ` Xavier Leroy
2008-07-11 15:20   ` Oliver Bandel
2008-07-11 15:23   ` Bill
2008-07-11 18:14   ` Mattias Engdegård
2008-07-12 23:05   ` J C

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=200807151039.51519.ober.14@osu.edu \
    --to=ober.14@osu.edu \
    --cc=caml-list@yquem.inria.fr \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).