From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3 X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82]) by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93A65BBAF for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 17:37:00 +0200 (CEST) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AngEAH7hikjAXQInYWdsb2JhbACLGYcrFwUGBhSbeA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.31,255,1215381600"; d="scan'208";a="15528054" Received: from concorde.inria.fr ([192.93.2.39]) by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 26 Jul 2008 17:37:00 +0200 Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id m6QFax8t009613 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=OK) for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 17:37:00 +0200 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ap0BAH7hikjUnw7XiGdsb2JhbACLGYc1AQEBCgUgm3g X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.31,255,1215381600"; d="scan'208";a="15483824" Received: from fhw-relay07.plus.net ([212.159.14.215]) by mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/AES256-SHA; 26 Jul 2008 17:36:59 +0200 Received: from [90.192.139.40] (helo=beast.local) by fhw-relay07.plus.net with esmtpa (Exim) id 1KMlpK-0003pL-Cu for caml-list@inria.fr; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 16:36:58 +0100 From: Jon Harrop Organization: Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd. To: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: [Caml-list] New Ocaml Plug-in for NetBeans Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 16:37:12 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.9 References: <1217073678.488b120e39357@webmail.inescporto.pt> <20080726222510.bab5baad.mle+ocaml@mega-nerd.com> In-Reply-To: <20080726222510.bab5baad.mle+ocaml@mega-nerd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200807261637.12409.jon@ffconsultancy.com> X-Plusnet-Relay: ad9ee7ee344c807abc4a8a0c8cf86e95 X-Miltered: at concorde with ID 488B449B.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http://j-chkmail . ensmp . fr)! X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml:01 ocaml:01 haskell:01 afaik:01 haskell:01 uniformly:01 syntax:01 plug-in:98 dog:98 frog:98 imho:01 wrote:01 wrote:01 exception:01 caml-list:01 On Saturday 26 July 2008 13:25:10 Erik de Castro Lopo wrote: > hmf@inescporto.pt wrote: > > Ok, this is not a rebuttal but... we all know C, C++, Ocaml, Haskell, > > Ruby, etc, are supported in Eclipse. Granted support is not > > perfect, but you can work quite comfortably. > > Personally I find Eclipse appalling. It takes forever to start > up and runs slow as a dog. Agreed. That is precisely why I think it is a bad idea to build upon Eclipse. However that is not an inherent property of an IDE. Surely one written in OCaml as I described could be extremely fast? > It might support Java reasonably well > but I find its support for C rather poor. I haven't tried it > with other laguages. The Scala plugin for Eclipse is also almost unusable. AFAIK, Haskell has uniformly poor support in this respect as well. F# is the best of the functional languages but still leaves a lot to be desired, IMHO. > > What I say here also goes for Richard. I am aware that a lot of time > > has gone into learning these tools (20 years!). I am just saying that to > > use IDEs also requires effort. > > I spent 35+ hours/week for 6 months on VS2005. Is that not enough > time to learn it? Have you used the F# mode in Visual Studio? > > Ok. But most IDE editor also offer most (all?) of those capabilities, > > correct? Anyway, this is not the issue. > > But the Adobe IDE was definitely different to the VS2005 one I > was using a couple of months earlier. What I really wanted was > to be using my editor, with my personalised syntax highlighting > pattern and my macros. > > > Granted. But I am defending lowering the barrier for Ocaml use. > > If you are advocating IDE use for the purposes of making Ocaml > easier for newcomers then you are in a bit of a bind. The > people who need the IDE are the newcomers who are not capable > of writing one and the ones with sufficient experience to write > an Ocaml IDE are happy with what they have and are therefore > not interested in writing one (with the possible exception of > Jon Harrop). Actually, many OCaml programmers gave the F# team positive feedback over their Visual Studio mode precisely because it makes experienced users so much more productive. -- Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd. http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/?e