From: Jon Harrop <jon@ffconsultancy.com>
To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Re: OCaml is broken
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 21:14:42 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <200912202114.42669.jon@ffconsultancy.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <794713.82307.qm@web111510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
On Sunday 20 December 2009 14:27:00 Dario Teixeira wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > It's too bad that INRIA is not interested in fixing this bug. No
> > matter what people say I consider this a bug. Two cores is standard by
> > now, I'm used to 8, next year 32 and so on. OCaml will only become
> > more and more irrelevant. I hate to see that happening.
>
> This is a perennial topic in this list. Without meaning to dwell too
> long on old arguments, I simply ask you to consider the following:
>
> - Do you really think a concurrent GC with shared memory will scale neatly
> to those 32 cores?
>
> - Will memory access remain homogeneous for all cores as soon as we get
> into the dozens of cores?
The following web page describes a commercial machine sold by Azul Systems
that has up to 16 54-core CPUs (=864 cores) and 768 GB of memory in a flat
SMP configuration:
http://www.azulsystems.com/products/compute_appliance.htm
As you can see, a GC with shared memory can already scale across dozens of
cores and memory access is no more heterogeneous than it was 20 years ago.
Also, note that homogeneous memory access is a red herring in this context
because it does not undermine the utility of a shared heap on a multicore.
> - Have you considered that many Ocaml users prefer a GC that offers maximum
> single core performance,
OCaml's GC is nowhere near offering maximum single core performance. Its
uniform data representation renders OCaml many times slower than its
competitors for many tasks. For example, filling a 10M float->float hash
table is over 18x slower with OCaml than with F#. FFT with a complex number
type is 5.5x slower with OCaml than F#. Fibonacci with floats is 3.3x slower
with OCaml than my own HLVM project (!).
> because their application is parallelised via multiple processes
> communicating via message passing?
A circular argument based upon the self-selected group of remaining OCaml
users. Today's OCaml users use OCaml despite its shortcomings. If you want to
see the impact of OCaml's multicore unfriendliness, consider why the OCaml
community has haemorrhaged 50% of its users in only 2 years.
> In this context, your "bug" is actually a "feature".
I'm not even sure you can substantiate that in the very specific context of
distributed parallel theorem provers because other languages are so much more
efficient at handling common abstractions like parametric polymorphism. Got
any benchmarks?
--
Dr Jon Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/?e
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2009-12-20 20:00 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 58+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2009-12-19 19:38 Jeff Shaw
2009-12-20 4:43 ` [Caml-list] " Jon Harrop
2009-12-20 12:21 ` [***SPAM*** Score/Req: 10.1/8.0] " Erik Rigtorp
2009-12-20 13:22 ` Martin Jambon
2009-12-20 13:47 ` Yaron Minsky
2009-12-20 16:01 ` Gerd Stolpmann
2009-12-21 22:50 ` [***SPAM*** Score/Req: 10.1/8.0] Re: [***SPAM*** Score/Req: 10.1/8.0] " Erik Rigtorp
2009-12-22 12:04 ` Erik Rigtorp
2009-12-22 12:27 ` Mihamina Rakotomandimby
2009-12-22 13:27 ` Gerd Stolpmann
2009-12-23 11:25 ` Erik Rigtorp
2009-12-29 12:07 ` [***SPAM*** Score/Req: 10.1/8.0] Re: [***SPAM*** Score/Req: 10.1/8.0] " Richard Jones
2009-12-20 14:27 ` Dario Teixeira
2009-12-20 21:14 ` Jon Harrop [this message]
2009-12-21 1:08 ` Gerd Stolpmann
2009-12-21 4:30 ` Jon Harrop
2009-12-21 3:58 ` Yaron Minsky
2009-12-21 5:32 ` Markus Mottl
2009-12-21 13:29 ` Jon Harrop
2009-12-26 17:08 ` orbitz
2009-12-20 19:38 ` [***SPAM*** Score/Req: 10.1/8.0] " Jon Harrop
2009-12-21 12:26 ` Mihamina Rakotomandimby
2009-12-21 14:19 ` general question, was " Keyan
2009-12-21 14:40 ` [Caml-list] " rixed
2009-12-21 14:42 ` Gerd Stolpmann
2009-12-21 15:25 ` Eray Ozkural
2009-12-21 14:50 ` Philip
2009-12-21 15:01 ` Keyan
2009-12-21 15:13 ` Stefano Zacchiroli
2009-12-21 15:27 ` Dario Teixeira
2009-12-21 15:46 ` Jacques Carette
2009-12-21 18:50 ` Jon Harrop
2009-12-21 18:48 ` Jon Harrop
2010-01-03 10:49 ` Sylvain Le Gall
2010-01-03 20:06 ` [Caml-list] " Jon Harrop
2009-12-21 13:07 ` [***SPAM*** Score/Req: 10.1/8.0] Re: [Caml-list] " Damien Doligez
2009-12-21 13:31 ` multicore wish [Was: Re: [Caml-list] Re: OCaml is broken] Goswin von Brederlow
2009-12-21 14:19 ` multicore wish Mihamina Rakotomandimby
2009-12-21 16:15 ` [Caml-list] " Fischbacher T.
2009-12-21 17:42 ` Dario Teixeira
2009-12-21 18:43 ` Jon Harrop
2009-12-21 19:53 ` multicore wish [Was: Re: [Caml-list] Re: OCaml is broken] Jon Harrop
2009-12-22 13:09 ` multicore wish Goswin von Brederlow
2009-12-22 19:12 ` [Caml-list] " Jon Harrop
2009-12-22 18:02 ` Edgar Friendly
2009-12-22 19:20 ` Jon Harrop
2009-12-24 12:58 ` Goswin von Brederlow
2009-12-24 16:51 ` Jon Harrop
2009-12-24 13:19 ` Goswin von Brederlow
2009-12-24 17:06 ` Jon Harrop
2009-12-27 12:45 ` Goswin von Brederlow
2009-12-27 16:37 ` Jon Harrop
2009-12-28 12:28 ` Gerd Stolpmann
2009-12-28 15:07 ` Anil Madhavapeddy
2009-12-28 18:05 ` Xavier Leroy
2009-12-29 16:44 ` Gerd Stolpmann
2009-12-20 11:56 ` [***SPAM*** Score/Req: 10.1/8.0] [Caml-list] Re: OCaml is broken Erik Rigtorp
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2009-12-19 9:30 Erik Rigtorp
2009-12-20 16:18 ` [Caml-list] " Gerd Stolpmann
2009-12-21 19:55 ` Erik Rigtorp
2009-12-21 21:21 ` Sylvain Le Gall
2009-12-29 12:00 ` [Caml-list] " Richard Jones
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=200912202114.42669.jon@ffconsultancy.com \
--to=jon@ffconsultancy.com \
--cc=caml-list@yquem.inria.fr \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).