From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id VAA27640; Fri, 18 Oct 2002 21:04:56 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA27978 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2002 21:04:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from chimta04.algx.net (chimta04.algx.net [216.99.233.79]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g9IJ4s519068 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2002 21:04:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from d175.focal7.interaccess.com (d175.focal7.interaccess.com [207.208.187.175]) by chimmx04.algx.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 1.4 (built Aug 5 2002)) with SMTP id <0H4600879Y4TWB@chimmx04.algx.net> for caml-list@inria.fr; Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:00:31 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 19:03:08 +0000 (GMT) From: olczyk@interaccess.com (Thaddeus L. Olczyk) Subject: [Caml-list] Re: "ocaml_beginners"::[] Is Caml a fraud ( especially on Windows )? In-reply-to: <20021018114455.82690.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> To: ocaml_beginners@yahoogroups.com Cc: caml-list@inria.fr, pragprog@yahoogroups.com Reply-to: olczyk@interaccess.com Message-id: <3db242ea.937096156@smtp.interaccess.com> Organization: stickit@nospammers.com MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20021018114455.82690.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 04:44:55 -0700 (PDT), Joaquin Cuenca Abela wrote: > >--- olczyk@interaccess.com wrote: >> >> So when I hear developers saying that their language >> is the best I >> imediately begin to wonder about it's deficiencies >> are. > >You will have a hard time looking for a language >developer that don't states that its language is the >best one. > >Stroustup prefers C++ to any other language for most >tasks, Ritchie said that if he was only allowed to >keep one language on a desert island, it will be C, >etc. > And Pierre Weis says that I shouldn't call people liars, but when I see a post like this... There is a big difference between saying " if I could only use one language it would be C", and saying "C is the best language". Stroustrup has said and continues to say that he refuses to get into the debate about what the best language is. Last I looked it was the stated on the FAQ on his web page. > >? From what I know, ocamlc only calls cl.exe to >compile C code. That's, if you do: > >ocamlc test.c > >and test.c is a C program, then it will compile it >using (surprise) a C compiler. That's all. It >compiles itself Caml code. > Uhmmm. If you look at the line of the build that I have posted, there are no C or C++ source files in the compile that uses cl.exe. >performance tests are almost always crap. Specially >language related ones. To me the only important thing >is that Caml creates programs that run at an >acceptable speed, that's all. > Indeed. As I pointed out the guy who did the test is not exactly the person I would want to write efficient C code. Which is usually why such preformance tests comparing two languages suck. The person is either an expert in one language and lacking in the other. > >Dude, you seem to have done a false assumption, and >then you're building a big chain of false deductions >(and at the same time, you're insulting Caml >developers). > >The debugger is not a wrapper of gdb. And it's one of >the best debuggers that I've had the pleasure to use. >Some months ago I was doing a little project for the >university. > >I first did it in perl, and then I tried to do it in >Caml (I wanted to learn a bit of Caml). The final >Caml version was half in size than the perl version, >and the debugger has a hell of help when I need it. >Specially the possibility to *go back* in the program >flow was a life-safer (why this feature does not >appears in big bold letters in the main ocaml page?). > Actually this is the perfect example of the kind of tunnel vision that those clueless exhibit. (With the caveat that I have not yet used the debugger, so go by what I read, and not the actual feel) CL/Scheme and Smalltalk both have debuggers with this feature ( I also suspect that Dylan has it too ) and they have had it for a *long. long time* , predating OCaml ( almost predating ML as an implemented language). In fact both languages have another feature which AFAIK OCaml does not. They both support core/images, which allow you to checkpoint a run and restart "close to the bug" even when you've pushed the go back feature to much. >I'm not member of a Caml fan club or something, but >when I'm learning a new language (and I try to do that >as regularly as possible), I always keep in mind two >things: > >1) I'm a newbie. If something is going bad, it's >probably my fault. >2) Don't insult people that try to help. > I don't read the C/C++ Users Journal much any more. But I still get it and read the editorials. Today the next one arrived with this comment: "If you're like me, you tire easily of hype machines that cry wolf about this or that whiz-bang tool." ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners