From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mail4-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail4-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.105]) by walapai.inria.fr (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id pAFAX3sg032061 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:33:03 +0100 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AlIBAE4/wk5KfVK2kGdsb2JhbABDhQGjFIFNCCIBAQEBCQkNBxQEIYFyAQEBBBICDxUIARscAQEDDAYFCw0CAgUWCwICCQMCAQIBEREBBQEOAQ0GDQEHAQESDKUhCosaR4JlhUw9iHECBQqBJoc+gRYElDCFO4EvhmM9g3E X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,514,1315173600"; d="scan'208";a="119047089" Received: from mail-wy0-f182.google.com ([74.125.82.182]) by mail4-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-SHA; 15 Nov 2011 11:32:58 +0100 Received: by wyf23 with SMTP id 23so8258001wyf.27 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 02:32:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=tG1OVwNrC4a3ngzWrx29wckQxx+Xjp5o3ahQ+RcVB48=; b=PPxW0tYteG+n1+N+A74Jif3ialHZ/UdlsN+lVC6KIPrn91M6QmBWxhn1Mw68o8YN+k t/AQt1g5t5JzIUKpBAZSStIx6leaxM1frjsrPntv+U65Eg+hUjuQ83z5yGGGgaSbLDi8 J4IKVghLmejQuSxEE3qbZfeuXbBnd7nWM4MEM= Received: by 10.227.198.213 with SMTP id ep21mr17571654wbb.18.1321353178008; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 02:32:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.93.11.91] (sauternes.inria.fr. [128.93.11.91]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b5sm28337437wbh.4.2011.11.15.02.32.56 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 15 Nov 2011 02:32:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4EC23FD2.8090802@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:32:50 +0100 From: Jonathan Protzenko User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:10.0a1) Gecko/20111109 Thunderbird/10.0a1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrej Bauer CC: caml-list@inria.fr References: <4EC23851.3070209@inria.fr> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Caml-list] How to fail to install Ocaml in 18 steps On 11/15/2011 11:21 AM, Andrej Bauer wrote: >> I completely agree that it does not have to be that hard. >> >> On the bright side, we are currently working hard on improving the >> Eclipse support for OCaml, and we should be able to release an improved >> plugin in a few months. >> >> We also plan to release Windows installers for the next versions of >> OCaml, to continue the great work started by Jonathan Protzenko. > Yes, please don't take my report as whining (only), but just as a user > experience report, to see how things go wrong. > > I think it is particularly hard to get things right because there is > no single place which describes the correct procedure. Some people > will start with the Eclipse plugin and won't realize they need to > install Ocaml separately. Some people will install Ocaml, but won't > read instructions and won't install Mingw (like my student). > > Suppose you do it the logical way: > > 1. Install Ocaml. > 2. Install OcaIDE. > > Then you'll still end up installing Mingw and later Cygwin, when > Cygwin with Mingw selected was all that was needed. OcaIDE requires Cygwin? I'm not seeing that anywhere on the OcaIDE page... > > The Ocaml web site, or wherever Google sends people who type in > "install ocaml", should have _unambigious_ set of instructions. No > ifs and thens and "Level 1" and "Level 2", and "source code or binary > installer" and "you need Mingw but you don't really because you can > have Microsoft stuff as well, and if you want 64-bit then Mingw is no > good, and there will be further surprises when you get to OcaIDE, we > lied about Mingw and Microsoft stuff, you will need cygwin anyhow, > etc." > > People expect: > 1. Install these prerequisites. > 2. Install this stuff. > 3. Install that stuff. > 4. It's working. > 5. Somewhere at the bottom of the instructions there is a link to > "alternative ways of installing" and "troubleshooting". > > If you make them decide whether they want Mingw or Microsoft right at > the beginning, it's already a lost battle. If you list installation > from source code before you list the binary installer, that's a big > mistake. People who want and know how to install from source will find > the source code even if you hide it from them. The other 99% will just > get confused. So that's one of the pain points that I wanted to alleviate with the OCaml installer. I (honestly) think it does solve some problems already by making sure ActiveTcl is installed, and by also installing Emacs if wanted. I never use Eclipse and I'm more used to the French education system where Emacs is somehow advocated because of its caml-mode, which explains the stance I took on Emacs. What would be an ideal experience in your opinion? Have the installer prompt the user if he wants to install mingw/msys as well? Please keep in mind that the windows installer (at least the one I provide) will remain based on msys/mingw. Cheers, jonathan