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[77.130.45.197]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i74sm3851138wmg.21.2016.07.08.09.54.57 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 08 Jul 2016 09:54:57 -0700 (PDT) To: Duane Johnson , Gabriel Scherer References: <20160704144512.GB2458@Razor> Cc: Dean Thompson , "caml-list@inria.fr" From: Mohamed Iguernlala Message-ID: <577FDAE1.7080207@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 18:54:57 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050802080701050307030901" Subject: Re: [Caml-list] how to encourage adoption of OCaml? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050802080701050307030901 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi there, I guess you found inria.fr and not infria.fr :-). If it's the case, the first thing you should notice when visiting it is the message: "This site is updated infrequently. For up-to-date information, please visit the new OCaml website at ocaml.org ." and on ocaml.org, you'll find a "modern website" with a "more conventional" extension. One click later (on the Community item of the upper menu), you'll get the information you need about mailing lists. Regards, - Mohamed. Le 08/07/2016 17:16, Duane Johnson a écrit : > > On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:40 AM, Gabriel Scherer > > wrote: > > Adoption is interesting but, as Tony Hoare put it, we are not > fashion designers. The best thing I can think of is to communicate > more and better, talk about the cool world that is being done in > the OCaml communities, and importantly talking about it outside > it. Supporting software projects that have a potential for impact > outside the OCaml community is also key -- Coq, MLdonkey, > Coccinelle, Flow, the SLAM static verifier toolkit, just to name a > few. > > > > As someone who just signed up to this mailing list, may I offer some > observations? > > - my first impression of OCaml community was through > reddit.com/r/ocaml . As a reddit user, I > would rank /r/ocaml as "barely alive but stable"--in other words, the > upvotes-per-thread there are in the single digits and low > double-digits showing people exist there, but it is not a thriving > community. > - next, I tried to find a google group. It was hard to find any > substantial and popular OCaml groups there. There was an OCaml > aggregation list, but it wasn't clear that it was a discussion group. > My first thought was, Is there no mailing list? I searched around and > found the infria.fr domain. To an outsider, this > lends no credibility or brand-name familiarity. Not only is the web > domain unfamiliar, but the website does not look welcoming--it appears > to be out of the 90s. > - signing up for a mailing list is slow and unrewarding. I'd much > rather sign up for a more modern community technology like reddit, > facebook, slack, or google groups. > - I clicked "Info" to get more info about the mailing list on > infria.fr and it says "Private information" inside > a white bubble. Ok... > - I looked for a chat community, and IRC is the only option. This > signals "old tech community" to me. Slack or gitter.im > is a more inclusive, modern community. In order to > participate in IRC, one must always be connected. This makes it more > difficult for outsiders to come in and feel like they can 'catch up' > on the conversation (Yes, I know there are chat logs, but this feature > is not an integrated part of IRC). > > In summary, all of the signals that I usually depend on to evaluate > the community around a technology are either weak or give me the > impression of "old and barely stable". New, exciting technologies that > I've seen tend to embrace and tap in to existing community platforms > (slack, reddit, github, gitbook, google groups) in order to leverage > the platform and amplify their advertising signal. > > Duane Johnson > > > On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:40 AM, Gabriel Scherer > > wrote: > > > Do others on this list feel the ramp to OCaml adoption is > smoother than my impression suggests? > > I can't speak for "adoption", but I think that you have been very > kind as far as user experience is concerned, that it is probably > worse than you suggest. > > We discussed some of these issues a few month ago in a thread > launched by Hendrik Bloom: > > Is OCaml for experienced beginners? > Hendrik Bloom, December 2015 > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list/2015-12/msg00077.html > > I gave a few remarks on the evolution of the OCaml ecosystem on > the period I know of that you may be interested in: > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list/2015-12/msg00110.html > > I think "adoption" and "usability" are interlinked but separate > issues. > > Getting adoption distributes the number of people interesting in > helping on usability, so it tends to improve usability, but I tend > to think that the second is actually the more interesting, > important goal to aim at. > > Adoption is interesting but, as Tony Hoare put it, we are not > fashion designers. The best thing I can think of is to communicate > more and better, talk about the cool world that is being done in > the OCaml communities, and importantly talking about it outside > it. Supporting software projects that have a potential for impact > outside the OCaml community is also key -- Coq, MLdonkey, > Coccinelle, Flow, the SLAM static verifier toolkit, just to name a > few. > > Regarding usability, I think the tooling ecosystem is too complex > today. If I wanted to bootstrap a beginner to do stuff I would > have to tell them about the OCaml compiler tools (ocamlc, > ocamlopt), ocamlfind, a build system (omake or ocamlbuild for > example), oasis, Merlin, opam, and get them to learn either Vim or > Emacs. That's a bit too much and even with the plethora of tools > there are problems we haven't really solved yet -- for example, > how to avoid module name conflicts. > I think a lot more work is required, both incremental improvements > and a few grand redesigns, before we reach a comfortable ecosystem > where starting an OCaml project feels like a breeze. That's what I > would aim at. > > Who here is excited about making OCaml approachable to > newcomers? Where is the main ongoing work on this? Who are the > main leaders from this perspective? > > > This is an interesting question. To my knowledge, no one is > specifically focused on this mightily important question. But it's > fair to assume that we have no "usability team" today, it's more a > distributed collection of efforts going in all directions from > various people, for example: > > - Gerd Stolpmann did a lot of work on the early language tooling, > notably GODI (an earlier ocaml-specific package manager) and > ocamlfind, and also kept very high documentation standards that > are an example to follow. > > - Sylvain le Gall's work on OASIS helps a lot of developers do > their packaging by encapsulating, in particular, the knowledge of > what to install where (not a simple question). > > - The OPAM team as a whole, as well as the maintainers of the > public opam repository, have done tremendous work making OCaml > software easy to install and deploy. (Windows is still of a sore > point, but there is progress in that area. It's a distinct > possibility that the OCaml ecosystem will become nice to use on > Windows before Windows disappears or gets a real Unix userland.) > > I would personally be interested in helping someone with a > holistic approach to usability devote as much of their time as > they can. (I think there are some sources of funding that could be > considered, but nothing very certain; from a crowd-funding > perspective I would be glad to pay €30 a month to fund such a > position.) I think this is a difficult position because there is a > lot of thankless grunt work implied, and arguably it's not a very > career-advancing move. > > On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:57 AM, Dean Thompson > > > wrote: > > Thank you, everyone, for the responses and discussion. If > there is interest, I would still love to hear more thoughts > about whether there is a roadmap (either de facto from the > community, or explicit from leaders of the community) to > foster broader adoption. > > I see that many organizations are making immense contributions > to the community: from language and ecosystem enhancements, to > Real World OCaml, to the OCaml Users and Developers Workshop. > Technical progress is rapid. But so far, to me, these > wonderful contributions feel more like giving back to the > community for us to make what we can of them, rather than > anyone’s systematic effort to streamline broader uptake of OCaml. > > These are the impressions of a newcomer. If there is interest, > I would love to hear more seasoned viewpoints. > > Dean > > > > > > > -- > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > > > --------------050802080701050307030901 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi there,

I guess you found inria.fr and not infria.fr :-). If it's the case, the first thing you should notice when visiting it is the message:

"This site is updated infrequently. For up-to-date information, please visit the new OCaml website at ocaml.org."

and on ocaml.org, you'll find a "modern website" with a "more conventional" extension. One click later (on the Community
item of the upper menu), you'll get the information you need about mailing lists.

Regards,

- Mohamed.


Le 08/07/2016 17:16, Duane Johnson a écrit :

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:40 AM, Gabriel Scherer <gabriel.scherer@gmail.com> wrote:
Adoption is interesting but, as Tony Hoare put it, we are not fashion designers. The best thing I can think of is to communicate more and better, talk about the cool world that is being done in the OCaml communities, and importantly talking about it outside it. Supporting software projects that have a potential for impact outside the OCaml community is also key -- Coq, MLdonkey, Coccinelle, Flow, the SLAM static verifier toolkit, just to name a few.


As someone who just signed up to this mailing list, may I offer some observations?

- my first impression of OCaml community was through reddit.com/r/ocaml. As a reddit user, I would rank /r/ocaml as "barely alive but stable"--in other words, the upvotes-per-thread there are in the single digits and low double-digits showing people exist there, but it is not a thriving community.
- next, I tried to find a google group. It was hard to find any substantial and popular OCaml groups there. There was an OCaml aggregation list, but it wasn't clear that it was a discussion group. My first thought was, Is there no mailing list? I searched around and found the infria.fr domain. To an outsider, this lends no credibility or brand-name familiarity. Not only is the web domain unfamiliar, but the website does not look welcoming--it appears to be out of the 90s.
- signing up for a mailing list is slow and unrewarding. I'd much rather sign up for a more modern community technology like reddit, facebook, slack, or google groups.
- I clicked "Info" to get more info about the mailing list on infria.fr and it says "Private information" inside a white bubble. Ok...
- I looked for a chat community, and IRC is the only option. This signals "old tech community" to me. Slack or gitter.im is a more inclusive, modern community. In order to participate in IRC, one must always be connected. This makes it more difficult for outsiders to come in and feel like they can 'catch up' on the conversation (Yes, I know there are chat logs, but this feature is not an integrated part of IRC).

In summary, all of the signals that I usually depend on to evaluate the community around a technology are either weak or give me the impression of "old and barely stable". New, exciting technologies that I've seen tend to embrace and tap in to existing community platforms (slack, reddit, github, gitbook, google groups) in order to leverage the platform and amplify their advertising signal.

Duane Johnson


On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:40 AM, Gabriel Scherer <gabriel.scherer@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do others on this list feel the ramp to OCaml adoption is smoother than my impression suggests?

I can't speak for "adoption", but I think that you have been very kind as far as user experience is concerned, that it is probably worse than you suggest.

We discussed some of these issues a few month ago in a thread launched by Hendrik Bloom:

  Is OCaml for experienced beginners?
  Hendrik Bloom, December 2015
I gave a few remarks on the evolution of the OCaml ecosystem on the period I know of that you may be interested in:
  https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list/2015-12/msg00110.html

I think "adoption" and "usability" are interlinked but separate issues.

Getting adoption distributes the number of people interesting in helping on usability, so it tends to improve usability, but I tend to think that the second is actually the more interesting, important goal to aim at.

Adoption is interesting but, as Tony Hoare put it, we are not fashion designers. The best thing I can think of is to communicate more and better, talk about the cool world that is being done in the OCaml communities, and importantly talking about it outside it. Supporting software projects that have a potential for impact outside the OCaml community is also key -- Coq, MLdonkey, Coccinelle, Flow, the SLAM static verifier toolkit, just to name a few.

Regarding usability, I think the tooling ecosystem is too complex today. If I wanted to bootstrap a beginner to do stuff I would have to tell them about the OCaml compiler tools (ocamlc, ocamlopt), ocamlfind, a build system (omake or ocamlbuild for example), oasis, Merlin, opam, and get them to learn either Vim or Emacs. That's a bit too much and even with the plethora of tools there are problems we haven't really solved yet -- for example, how to avoid module name conflicts.
I think a lot more work is required, both incremental improvements and a few grand redesigns, before we reach a comfortable ecosystem where starting an OCaml project feels like a breeze. That's what I would aim at.

Who here is excited about making OCaml approachable to newcomers? Where is the main ongoing work on this? Who are the main leaders from this perspective?

This is an interesting question. To my knowledge, no one is specifically focused on this mightily important question. But it's fair to assume that we have no "usability team" today, it's more a distributed collection of efforts going in all directions from various people, for example:

- Gerd Stolpmann did a lot of work on the early language tooling, notably GODI (an earlier ocaml-specific package manager) and ocamlfind, and also kept very high documentation standards that are an example to follow.

- Sylvain le Gall's work on OASIS helps a lot of developers do their packaging by encapsulating, in particular, the knowledge of what to install where (not a simple question).

- The OPAM team as a whole, as well as the maintainers of the public opam repository, have done tremendous work making OCaml software easy to install and deploy. (Windows is still of a sore point, but there is progress in that area. It's a distinct possibility that the OCaml ecosystem will become nice to use on Windows before Windows disappears or gets a real Unix userland.)

I would personally be interested in helping someone with a holistic approach to usability devote as much of their time as they can. (I think there are some sources of funding that could be considered, but nothing very certain; from a crowd-funding perspective I would be glad to pay €30 a month to fund such a position.) I think this is a difficult position because there is a lot of thankless grunt work implied, and arguably it's not a very career-advancing move.

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:57 AM, Dean Thompson <deansherthompson@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you, everyone, for the responses and discussion. If there is interest, I would still love to hear more thoughts about whether there is a roadmap (either de facto from the community, or explicit from leaders of the community) to foster broader adoption.

I see that many organizations are making immense contributions to the community: from language and ecosystem enhancements, to Real World OCaml, to the OCaml Users and Developers Workshop. Technical progress is rapid. But so far, to me, these wonderful contributions feel more like giving back to the community for us to make what we can of them, rather than anyone’s systematic effort to streamline broader uptake of OCaml.

These are the impressions of a newcomer. If there is interest, I would love to hear more seasoned viewpoints.

Dean






--
Caml-list mailing list.  Subscription management and archives:
https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs



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