* Improving OCaml's choice of type to display @ 2009-10-09 1:40 Yaron Minsky 2009-10-09 1:53 ` Yaron Minsky 2009-10-09 7:33 ` Andrej Bauer 0 siblings, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Yaron Minsky @ 2009-10-09 1:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: caml-list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1653 bytes --] Anyone who plays around with the Core library that Jane Street just released can see showcased a rather ugly detail of how Core's design interacts with how OCaml displays types. Witness: # Int.of_string;; - : string -> Core.Std.Int.stringable = <fun> # Float.of_string;; - : string -> Core_extended.Std.Float.stringable = <fun> I'd be much happier if this was rendered in the following equally correct and more readable form: # Int.of_string;; - : string -> Int.t = <fun> # Float.of_string;; - : string -> Float.t = <fun> Or even: # Int.of_string;; - : string -> int = <fun> # Float.of_string;; - : string -> float = <fun> And this isn't just an issue in the top-level. The compiler also displays types in the same difficult to read form. I'm wondering if anyone has some thoughts as to what we can do to make the compiler make better choices here. There are two issues to overcome: - Dropping the module name. I'd love to give the compiler the hint that Core.Std. could be dropped from the prefix in a context where that module is open. This is what's done with the pervasives module already, I believe, so it seems like it should be doable here. - Choosing shorter names. This one seems harder, but there are various different possibilities for what type name to print out, and a reasonable heuristic to use might be to pick the shortest one. Part of the reason these issues come up is our use of standardized interface components (that's where the "stringable" type name comes from). I suspect this one will be hard to fix, sadly. Anyway, we'd be happy with any suggestions on how to improve matters. y [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3115 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Improving OCaml's choice of type to display 2009-10-09 1:40 Improving OCaml's choice of type to display Yaron Minsky @ 2009-10-09 1:53 ` Yaron Minsky 2009-10-11 14:57 ` [Caml-list] " Jun Furuse 2009-10-09 7:33 ` Andrej Bauer 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Yaron Minsky @ 2009-10-09 1:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: caml-list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2179 bytes --] And you can compete to come up with the most innocuous code that comes up with the longest type. Here's my current favorite: # open Option.Monad_infix;; # Map.find m 3 >>| fun x -> x + 1;; - : int Core.Std.Option.Monad_infix.monad = Some 4 Which of course could be rendered as: # open Option.Monad_infix;; # Map.find m 3 >>| fun x -> x + 1;; - : int option = Some 4 y On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> wrote: > Anyone who plays around with the Core library that Jane Street just > released can see showcased a rather ugly detail of how Core's design > interacts with how OCaml displays types. Witness: > > # Int.of_string;; > - : string -> Core.Std.Int.stringable = <fun> > # Float.of_string;; > - : string -> Core_extended.Std.Float.stringable = <fun> > > I'd be much happier if this was rendered in the following equally correct > and more readable form: > > # Int.of_string;; > - : string -> Int.t = <fun> > # Float.of_string;; > - : string -> Float.t = <fun> > > Or even: > > # Int.of_string;; > - : string -> int = <fun> > # Float.of_string;; > - : string -> float = <fun> > > And this isn't just an issue in the top-level. The compiler also displays > types in the same difficult to read form. I'm wondering if anyone has some > thoughts as to what we can do to make the compiler make better choices > here. There are two issues to overcome: > > - Dropping the module name. I'd love to give the compiler the hint > that Core.Std. could be dropped from the prefix in a context where that > module is open. This is what's done with the pervasives module already, I > believe, so it seems like it should be doable here. > - Choosing shorter names. This one seems harder, but there are various > different possibilities for what type name to print out, and a reasonable > heuristic to use might be to pick the shortest one. Part of the reason > these issues come up is our use of standardized interface components (that's > where the "stringable" type name comes from). I suspect this one will be > hard to fix, sadly. > > Anyway, we'd be happy with any suggestions on how to improve matters. > > y > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4533 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [Caml-list] Re: Improving OCaml's choice of type to display 2009-10-09 1:53 ` Yaron Minsky @ 2009-10-11 14:57 ` Jun Furuse 2009-10-11 15:12 ` Yaron Minsky 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Jun Furuse @ 2009-10-11 14:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: yminsky; +Cc: caml-list I have quickly wrote a small patch against 3.11.1 for this feature, to see what it would be like. http://sites.google.com/a/furuse.info/jun/hacks/other-small-ocaml-patches With this patch, path names are printed without opened modules in the context. It also tries heuristic data type name simplification: if a variant/record data type is an alias of another data type whose name is shorter than the original, the printer uses the latter. For example: # open Hashtbl;; # let tbl = Hashtbl.create 10;; val tbl : ('_a, '_b) t = <abstr> (* not Hashtbl.t, since Hashtbl is open *) # type t = int;; type t = int # type long_name = int;; type long_name = int # (1 : t);; - : t = 1 (* t is the shorter than its original type int *) # (1 : long_name);; - : int = 1 (* int is shorter name for long_name. t is even shorter but not aliased unfortunatelly. *) I warn you that the patch is very quickly written and not tested well. Enjoy! Jun On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> wrote: > And you can compete to come up with the most innocuous code that comes up > with the longest type. Here's my current favorite: > > # open Option.Monad_infix;; > # Map.find m 3 >>| fun x -> x + 1;; > - : int Core.Std.Option.Monad_infix.monad = Some 4 > > Which of course could be rendered as: > > # open Option.Monad_infix;; > # Map.find m 3 >>| fun x -> x + 1;; > - : int option = Some 4 > > y > > On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Anyone who plays around with the Core library that Jane Street just >> released can see showcased a rather ugly detail of how Core's design >> interacts with how OCaml displays types. Witness: >> >> # Int.of_string;; >> - : string -> Core.Std.Int.stringable = <fun> >> # Float.of_string;; >> - : string -> Core_extended.Std.Float.stringable = <fun> >> >> I'd be much happier if this was rendered in the following equally correct >> and more readable form: >> >> # Int.of_string;; >> - : string -> Int.t = <fun> >> # Float.of_string;; >> - : string -> Float.t = <fun> >> >> Or even: >> >> # Int.of_string;; >> - : string -> int = <fun> >> # Float.of_string;; >> - : string -> float = <fun> >> >> And this isn't just an issue in the top-level. The compiler also displays >> types in the same difficult to read form. I'm wondering if anyone has some >> thoughts as to what we can do to make the compiler make better choices >> here. There are two issues to overcome: >> >> Dropping the module name. I'd love to give the compiler the hint that >> Core.Std. could be dropped from the prefix in a context where that module is >> open. This is what's done with the pervasives module already, I believe, so >> it seems like it should be doable here. >> Choosing shorter names. This one seems harder, but there are various >> different possibilities for what type name to print out, and a reasonable >> heuristic to use might be to pick the shortest one. Part of the reason >> these issues come up is our use of standardized interface components (that's >> where the "stringable" type name comes from). I suspect this one will be >> hard to fix, sadly. >> >> Anyway, we'd be happy with any suggestions on how to improve matters. >> >> y > > > _______________________________________________ > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management: > http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list > Archives: http://caml.inria.fr > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [Caml-list] Re: Improving OCaml's choice of type to display 2009-10-11 14:57 ` [Caml-list] " Jun Furuse @ 2009-10-11 15:12 ` Yaron Minsky 2009-10-11 15:24 ` Jun Furuse 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Yaron Minsky @ 2009-10-11 15:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jun Furuse; +Cc: caml-list Cool! That was quick. Does this patch also implement stephen's fewest-number-of-dots heuristic? I was thinking one nice approach would be fewest-number-of- dots with ties broken by length of final identifier. Y Yaron Minsky On Oct 11, 2009, at 10:57 AM, Jun Furuse <jun.furuse@gmail.com> wrote: > I have quickly wrote a small patch against 3.11.1 for this feature, to > see what it would be like. > > http://sites.google.com/a/furuse.info/jun/hacks/other-small-ocaml-patches > > With this patch, path names are printed without opened modules in the > context. It also tries heuristic data type name simplification: if a > variant/record data type is an alias of another data type whose name > is shorter than the original, the printer uses the latter. > > For example: > > # open Hashtbl;; > # let tbl = Hashtbl.create 10;; > val tbl : ('_a, '_b) t = <abstr> (* not Hashtbl.t, since > Hashtbl is open *) > > # type t = int;; > type t = int > # type long_name = int;; > type long_name = int > # (1 : t);; > - : t = 1 (* t is the shorter than its original > type int *) > # (1 : long_name);; > - : int = 1 (* int is shorter name for long_name. t > is even shorter but not aliased unfortunatelly. *) > > I warn you that the patch is very quickly written and not tested > well. Enjoy! > > Jun > > On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> > wrote: >> And you can compete to come up with the most innocuous code that >> comes up >> with the longest type. Here's my current favorite: >> >> # open Option.Monad_infix;; >> # Map.find m 3 >>| fun x -> x + 1;; >> - : int Core.Std.Option.Monad_infix.monad = Some 4 >> >> Which of course could be rendered as: >> >> # open Option.Monad_infix;; >> # Map.find m 3 >>| fun x -> x + 1;; >> - : int option = Some 4 >> >> y >> >> On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> >>> Anyone who plays around with the Core library that Jane Street just >>> released can see showcased a rather ugly detail of how Core's design >>> interacts with how OCaml displays types. Witness: >>> >>> # Int.of_string;; >>> - : string -> Core.Std.Int.stringable = <fun> >>> # Float.of_string;; >>> - : string -> Core_extended.Std.Float.stringable = <fun> >>> >>> I'd be much happier if this was rendered in the following equally >>> correct >>> and more readable form: >>> >>> # Int.of_string;; >>> - : string -> Int.t = <fun> >>> # Float.of_string;; >>> - : string -> Float.t = <fun> >>> >>> Or even: >>> >>> # Int.of_string;; >>> - : string -> int = <fun> >>> # Float.of_string;; >>> - : string -> float = <fun> >>> >>> And this isn't just an issue in the top-level. The compiler also >>> displays >>> types in the same difficult to read form. I'm wondering if anyone >>> has some >>> thoughts as to what we can do to make the compiler make better >>> choices >>> here. There are two issues to overcome: >>> >>> Dropping the module name. I'd love to give the compiler the hint >>> that >>> Core.Std. could be dropped from the prefix in a context where that >>> module is >>> open. This is what's done with the pervasives module already, I >>> believe, so >>> it seems like it should be doable here. >>> Choosing shorter names. This one seems harder, but there are >>> various >>> different possibilities for what type name to print out, and a >>> reasonable >>> heuristic to use might be to pick the shortest one. Part of the >>> reason >>> these issues come up is our use of standardized interface >>> components (that's >>> where the "stringable" type name comes from). I suspect this one >>> will be >>> hard to fix, sadly. >>> >>> Anyway, we'd be happy with any suggestions on how to improve >>> matters. >>> >>> y >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management: >> http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list >> Archives: http://caml.inria.fr >> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners >> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >> >> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [Caml-list] Re: Improving OCaml's choice of type to display 2009-10-11 15:12 ` Yaron Minsky @ 2009-10-11 15:24 ` Jun Furuse 2009-10-11 19:57 ` Gilles Pirio 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Jun Furuse @ 2009-10-11 15:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Yaron Minsky; +Cc: caml-list I have not tested it well but it counts dots and should try to find the minimal one. A problem I have found so far is that it prints something confusing, ex. module M = struct type t end module N = struct type t end open M open N let _ = ( 1 : M.t ) >> Error: This expression has type int but an expression was expected of type t (which t ?!?!?) If there are types M.t and N.t and the both of M and N are opened, these types are printed just "t". This can be avoided by testing the result name "t" against the current typing envrionment to see it really means the original type "M.t". This requires more coding but the weekend has ended in the far east already :-) (It's 0:24 Monday now.) Jun On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:12 AM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> wrote: > Cool! That was quick. > > Does this patch also implement stephen's fewest-number-of-dots heuristic? I > was thinking one nice approach would be fewest-number-of-dots with ties > broken by length of final identifier. > > Y > > Yaron Minsky > > On Oct 11, 2009, at 10:57 AM, Jun Furuse <jun.furuse@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I have quickly wrote a small patch against 3.11.1 for this feature, to >> see what it would be like. >> >> http://sites.google.com/a/furuse.info/jun/hacks/other-small-ocaml-patches >> >> With this patch, path names are printed without opened modules in the >> context. It also tries heuristic data type name simplification: if a >> variant/record data type is an alias of another data type whose name >> is shorter than the original, the printer uses the latter. >> >> For example: >> >> # open Hashtbl;; >> # let tbl = Hashtbl.create 10;; >> val tbl : ('_a, '_b) t = <abstr> (* not Hashtbl.t, since Hashtbl is >> open *) >> >> # type t = int;; >> type t = int >> # type long_name = int;; >> type long_name = int >> # (1 : t);; >> - : t = 1 (* t is the shorter than its original type >> int *) >> # (1 : long_name);; >> - : int = 1 (* int is shorter name for long_name. t >> is even shorter but not aliased unfortunatelly. *) >> >> I warn you that the patch is very quickly written and not tested well. >> Enjoy! >> >> Jun >> >> On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> And you can compete to come up with the most innocuous code that comes up >>> with the longest type. Here's my current favorite: >>> >>> # open Option.Monad_infix;; >>> # Map.find m 3 >>| fun x -> x + 1;; >>> - : int Core.Std.Option.Monad_infix.monad = Some 4 >>> >>> Which of course could be rendered as: >>> >>> # open Option.Monad_infix;; >>> # Map.find m 3 >>| fun x -> x + 1;; >>> - : int option = Some 4 >>> >>> y >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Anyone who plays around with the Core library that Jane Street just >>>> released can see showcased a rather ugly detail of how Core's design >>>> interacts with how OCaml displays types. Witness: >>>> >>>> # Int.of_string;; >>>> - : string -> Core.Std.Int.stringable = <fun> >>>> # Float.of_string;; >>>> - : string -> Core_extended.Std.Float.stringable = <fun> >>>> >>>> I'd be much happier if this was rendered in the following equally >>>> correct >>>> and more readable form: >>>> >>>> # Int.of_string;; >>>> - : string -> Int.t = <fun> >>>> # Float.of_string;; >>>> - : string -> Float.t = <fun> >>>> >>>> Or even: >>>> >>>> # Int.of_string;; >>>> - : string -> int = <fun> >>>> # Float.of_string;; >>>> - : string -> float = <fun> >>>> >>>> And this isn't just an issue in the top-level. The compiler also >>>> displays >>>> types in the same difficult to read form. I'm wondering if anyone has >>>> some >>>> thoughts as to what we can do to make the compiler make better choices >>>> here. There are two issues to overcome: >>>> >>>> Dropping the module name. I'd love to give the compiler the hint that >>>> Core.Std. could be dropped from the prefix in a context where that >>>> module is >>>> open. This is what's done with the pervasives module already, I >>>> believe, so >>>> it seems like it should be doable here. >>>> Choosing shorter names. This one seems harder, but there are various >>>> different possibilities for what type name to print out, and a >>>> reasonable >>>> heuristic to use might be to pick the shortest one. Part of the reason >>>> these issues come up is our use of standardized interface components >>>> (that's >>>> where the "stringable" type name comes from). I suspect this one will >>>> be >>>> hard to fix, sadly. >>>> >>>> Anyway, we'd be happy with any suggestions on how to improve matters. >>>> >>>> y >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management: >>> http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list >>> Archives: http://caml.inria.fr >>> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners >>> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >>> >>> > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [Caml-list] Re: Improving OCaml's choice of type to display 2009-10-11 15:24 ` Jun Furuse @ 2009-10-11 19:57 ` Gilles Pirio 2009-10-11 21:17 ` [Caml-list] " Damien Guichard 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Gilles Pirio @ 2009-10-11 19:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: caml-list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 6202 bytes --] On the same topic, I was wondering why the type of the ampl_scalar_app function below was displayed as ('a -> 'a -> float) -> 'a -> 'a -> float rather than ('a -> 'a -> float) -> 'a -> ('a -> float). The latter would make my life easier. # let ampl_scalar_app f p = if f p p > 1. then fun x->f x p else fun x->f p x;; val ampl_scalar_app : ('a -> 'a -> float) -> 'a -> 'a -> float = <fun> PS: I can imagine this has been discussed extensively before, feel free to just send my a link to the relevant discussion if that's the case :) Giles On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Jun Furuse <jun.furuse@gmail.com> wrote: > I have not tested it well but it counts dots and should try to find > the minimal one. > > A problem I have found so far is that it prints something confusing, ex. > > module M = struct type t end > module N = struct type t end > open M > open N > > let _ = ( 1 : M.t ) > > >> Error: This expression has type int but an expression was expected of > type t (which t ?!?!?) > > If there are types M.t and N.t and the both of M and N are opened, > these types are printed just "t". This can be avoided by testing the > result name "t" against the current typing envrionment to see it > really means the original type "M.t". This requires more coding but > the weekend has ended in the far east already :-) (It's 0:24 Monday > now.) > > Jun > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:12 AM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> wrote: > > Cool! That was quick. > > > > Does this patch also implement stephen's fewest-number-of-dots heuristic? > I > > was thinking one nice approach would be fewest-number-of-dots with ties > > broken by length of final identifier. > > > > Y > > > > Yaron Minsky > > > > On Oct 11, 2009, at 10:57 AM, Jun Furuse <jun.furuse@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> I have quickly wrote a small patch against 3.11.1 for this feature, to > >> see what it would be like. > >> > >> > http://sites.google.com/a/furuse.info/jun/hacks/other-small-ocaml-patches > >> > >> With this patch, path names are printed without opened modules in the > >> context. It also tries heuristic data type name simplification: if a > >> variant/record data type is an alias of another data type whose name > >> is shorter than the original, the printer uses the latter. > >> > >> For example: > >> > >> # open Hashtbl;; > >> # let tbl = Hashtbl.create 10;; > >> val tbl : ('_a, '_b) t = <abstr> (* not Hashtbl.t, since Hashtbl is > >> open *) > >> > >> # type t = int;; > >> type t = int > >> # type long_name = int;; > >> type long_name = int > >> # (1 : t);; > >> - : t = 1 (* t is the shorter than its original type > >> int *) > >> # (1 : long_name);; > >> - : int = 1 (* int is shorter name for long_name. t > >> is even shorter but not aliased unfortunatelly. *) > >> > >> I warn you that the patch is very quickly written and not tested well. > >> Enjoy! > >> > >> Jun > >> > >> On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>> > >>> And you can compete to come up with the most innocuous code that comes > up > >>> with the longest type. Here's my current favorite: > >>> > >>> # open Option.Monad_infix;; > >>> # Map.find m 3 >>| fun x -> x + 1;; > >>> - : int Core.Std.Option.Monad_infix.monad = Some 4 > >>> > >>> Which of course could be rendered as: > >>> > >>> # open Option.Monad_infix;; > >>> # Map.find m 3 >>| fun x -> x + 1;; > >>> - : int option = Some 4 > >>> > >>> y > >>> > >>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Anyone who plays around with the Core library that Jane Street just > >>>> released can see showcased a rather ugly detail of how Core's design > >>>> interacts with how OCaml displays types. Witness: > >>>> > >>>> # Int.of_string;; > >>>> - : string -> Core.Std.Int.stringable = <fun> > >>>> # Float.of_string;; > >>>> - : string -> Core_extended.Std.Float.stringable = <fun> > >>>> > >>>> I'd be much happier if this was rendered in the following equally > >>>> correct > >>>> and more readable form: > >>>> > >>>> # Int.of_string;; > >>>> - : string -> Int.t = <fun> > >>>> # Float.of_string;; > >>>> - : string -> Float.t = <fun> > >>>> > >>>> Or even: > >>>> > >>>> # Int.of_string;; > >>>> - : string -> int = <fun> > >>>> # Float.of_string;; > >>>> - : string -> float = <fun> > >>>> > >>>> And this isn't just an issue in the top-level. The compiler also > >>>> displays > >>>> types in the same difficult to read form. I'm wondering if anyone has > >>>> some > >>>> thoughts as to what we can do to make the compiler make better choices > >>>> here. There are two issues to overcome: > >>>> > >>>> Dropping the module name. I'd love to give the compiler the hint that > >>>> Core.Std. could be dropped from the prefix in a context where that > >>>> module is > >>>> open. This is what's done with the pervasives module already, I > >>>> believe, so > >>>> it seems like it should be doable here. > >>>> Choosing shorter names. This one seems harder, but there are various > >>>> different possibilities for what type name to print out, and a > >>>> reasonable > >>>> heuristic to use might be to pick the shortest one. Part of the > reason > >>>> these issues come up is our use of standardized interface components > >>>> (that's > >>>> where the "stringable" type name comes from). I suspect this one will > >>>> be > >>>> hard to fix, sadly. > >>>> > >>>> Anyway, we'd be happy with any suggestions on how to improve matters. > >>>> > >>>> y > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management: > >>> http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list > >>> Archives: http://caml.inria.fr > >>> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > >>> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > >>> > >>> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management: > http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list > Archives: http://caml.inria.fr > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 9282 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [Caml-list] Improving OCaml's choice of type to display 2009-10-11 19:57 ` Gilles Pirio @ 2009-10-11 21:17 ` Damien Guichard 2009-10-11 21:46 ` Gilles Pirio 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Damien Guichard @ 2009-10-11 21:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: caml-list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 7129 bytes --] Hi Gilles, The type display routine uses right-associativity of the -> operator as a rewriting rule. Thus ('a -> 'a -> float) and 'a -> ('a -> float) are the same type and are both displayed as 'a -> 'a -> float. The type 'a -> ('a -> float) means the application will be (f x) y which is actually the same as f x y because the application is left-associative. The typer system doesn't care about your actual code syntax, and rightly so because the typer system is about semantic. You intend to write (f x) y, yet the type system tells you intend to write f x y, that's quite disturbing at first encounter. Suffice to say you have to get your head around it. Mind the right-associativity of -> and the left-associativity of application. Think your code more semantically and less syntactically. In the end this type sytem makes you a better programmer. - damien En réponse au message de : Gilles Pirio du : 2009-10-11 21:57:40 À : caml-list@yquem.inria.fr CC : Sujet : Re: [Caml-list] Re: Improving OCaml's choice of type to display On the same topic, I was wondering why the type of the ampl_scalar_app function below was displayed as ('a -> 'a -> float) -> 'a -> 'a -> float rather than ('a -> 'a -> float) -> 'a -> ('a -> float). The latter would make my life easier. # let ampl_scalar_app f p = if f p p > 1. then fun x->f x p else fun x->f p x;; val ampl_scalar_app : ('a -> 'a -> float) -> 'a -> 'a -> float = <fun> PS: I can imagine this has been discussed extensively before, feel free to just send my a link to the relevant discussion if that's the case :) Giles On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Jun Furuse <jun.furuse@gmail.com> wrote: I have not tested it well but it counts dots and should try to find the minimal one. A problem I have found so far is that it prints something confusing, ex. module M = struct type t end module N = struct type t end open M open N let _ = ( 1 : M.t ) >> Error: This expression has type int but an expression was expected of type t (which t ?!?!?) If there are types M.t and N.t and the both of M and N are opened, these types are printed just "t". This can be avoided by testing the result name "t" against the current typing envrionment to see it really means the original type "M.t". This requires more coding but the weekend has ended in the far east already :-) (It's 0:24 Monday now.) Jun On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:12 AM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> wrote: > Cool! That was quick. > > Does this patch also implement stephen's fewest-number-of-dots heuristic? I > was thinking one nice approach would be fewest-number-of-dots with ties > broken by length of final identifier. > > Y > > Yaron Minsky > > On Oct 11, 2009, at 10:57 AM, Jun Furuse <jun.furuse@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I have quickly wrote a small patch against 3.11.1 for this feature, to >> see what it would be like. >> >> http://sites.google.com/a/furuse.info/jun/hacks/other-small-ocaml-patches >> >> With this patch, path names are printed without opened modules in the >> context. It also tries heuristic data type name simplification: if a >> variant/record data type is an alias of another data type whose name >> is shorter than the original, the printer uses the latter. >> >> For example: >> >> # open Hashtbl;; >> # let tbl = Hashtbl.create 10;; >> val tbl : ('_a, '_b) t = <abstr> (* not Hashtbl.t, since Hashtbl is >> open *) >> >> # type t = int;; >> type t = int >> # type long_name = int;; >> type long_name = int >> # (1 : t);; >> - : t = 1 (* t is the shorter than its original type >> int *) >> # (1 : long_name);; >> - : int = 1 (* int is shorter name for long_name. t >> is even shorter but not aliased unfortunatelly. *) >> >> I warn you that the patch is very quickly written and not tested well. >> Enjoy! >> >> Jun >> >> On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> And you can compete to come up with the most innocuous code that comes up >>> with the longest type. Here's my current favorite: >>> >>> # open Option.Monad_infix;; >>> # Map.find m 3 >>| fun x -> x + 1;; >>> - : int Core.Std.Option.Monad_infix.monad = Some 4 >>> >>> Which of course could be rendered as: >>> >>> # open Option.Monad_infix;; >>> # Map.find m 3 >>| fun x -> x + 1;; >>> - : int option = Some 4 >>> >>> y >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Anyone who plays around with the Core library that Jane Street just >>>> released can see showcased a rather ugly detail of how Core's design >>>> interacts with how OCaml displays types. Witness: >>>> >>>> # Int.of_string;; >>>> - : string -> Core.Std.Int.stringable = <fun> >>>> # Float.of_string;; >>>> - : string -> Core_extended.Std.Float.stringable = <fun> >>>> >>>> I'd be much happier if this was rendered in the following equally >>>> correct >>>> and more readable form: >>>> >>>> # Int.of_string;; >>>> - : string -> Int.t = <fun> >>>> # Float.of_string;; >>>> - : string -> Float.t = <fun> >>>> >>>> Or even: >>>> >>>> # Int.of_string;; >>>> - : string -> int = <fun> >>>> # Float.of_string;; >>>> - : string -> float = <fun> >>>> >>>> And this isn't just an issue in the top-level. The compiler also >>>> displays >>>> types in the same difficult to read form. I'm wondering if anyone has >>>> some >>>> thoughts as to what we can do to make the compiler make better choices >>>> here. There are two issues to overcome: >>>> >>>> Dropping the module name. I'd love to give the compiler the hint that >>>> Core.Std. could be dropped from the prefix in a context where that >>>> module is >>>> open. This is what's done with the pervasives module already, I >>>> believe, so >>>> it seems like it should be doable here. >>>> Choosing shorter names. This one seems harder, but there are various >>>> different possibilities for what type name to print out, and a >>>> reasonable >>>> heuristic to use might be to pick the shortest one. Part of the reason >>>> these issues come up is our use of standardized interface components >>>> (that's >>>> where the "stringable" type name comes from). I suspect this one will >>>> be >>>> hard to fix, sadly. >>>> >>>> Anyway, we'd be happy with any suggestions on how to improve matters. >>>> >>>> y >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management: >>> http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list >>> Archives: http://caml.inria.fr >>> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners >>> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management: http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 13879 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [Caml-list] Improving OCaml's choice of type to display 2009-10-11 21:17 ` [Caml-list] " Damien Guichard @ 2009-10-11 21:46 ` Gilles Pirio 2009-10-11 22:16 ` Lukasz Stafiniak 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Gilles Pirio @ 2009-10-11 21:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Damien Guichard; +Cc: caml-list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 8928 bytes --] Hey Damien Sure, I fully understand that both types are equivalent given the rules governing the application operator. My point was more on the usability side, as the type display is primarily intended at helping the programmer to quickly figure out type mismatch. So I'd think having a display allowing to quickly distinguish between the noe and castro functions below would be a good thing, especially for beginners. I've been using ocaml for a few years now, and I have to say that it's not a major issue any more - just wanted to give some feedback about this. Thanks Gilles # let noe a b = a;; val noe : 'a -> 'b -> 'a = <fun> # let castro a = fun _ -> a;; val castro : 'a -> 'b -> 'a = <fun> On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Damien Guichard <alphablock@orange.fr>wrote: > > Hi Gilles, > > The type display routine uses right-associativity of the -> operator as a > rewriting rule. > Thus *('a -> 'a -> float)* and *'a -> ('a -> float)* are the same type and > are both displayed as *'a -> 'a -> float*. > > The type *'a -> ('a -> float)* means the application will be *(f x) y*which is actually the same as > *f x y* because the application is left-associative. > The typer system doesn't care about your actual code syntax, and rightly so > because the typer system is about semantic. > You intend to write *(f x) y,* yet the type system tells you intend to > write *f x y*, that's quite disturbing at first encounter. > > Suffice to say you have to get your head around it. > Mind the right-associativity of -> and the left-associativity of > application. > Think your code more semantically and less syntactically. > In the end this type sytem makes you a better programmer. > > - *damien* > > > ------------------------------ > *En réponse au message* > *de :* Gilles Pirio > *du :* 2009-10-11 21:57:40 > *À :* caml-list@yquem.inria.fr > *CC :* > *Sujet :* Re: [Caml-list] Re: Improving OCaml's choice of type to display > > > On the same topic, I was wondering why the type of the ampl_scalar_app > function below was displayed as ('a -> 'a -> float) -> 'a -> 'a -> float > rather than ('a -> 'a -> float) -> 'a -> ('a -> float). The latter would > make my life easier. > > # let ampl_scalar_app f p = if f p p > 1. then fun x->f x p else fun x->f p > x;; > val ampl_scalar_app : ('a -> 'a -> float) -> 'a -> 'a -> float = <fun> > > PS: I can imagine this has been discussed extensively before, feel free to > just send my a link to the relevant discussion if that's the case :) > > Giles > > > On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Jun Furuse <jun.furuse@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I have not tested it well but it counts dots and should try to find >> the minimal one. >> >> A problem I have found so far is that it prints something confusing, ex. >> >> module M = struct type t end >> module N = struct type t end >> open M >> open N >> >> let _ = ( 1 : M.t ) >> >> >> Error: This expression has type int but an expression was expected of >> type t (which t ?!?!?) >> >> If there are types M.t and N.t and the both of M and N are opened, >> these types are printed just "t". This can be avoided by testing the >> result name "t" against the current typing envrionment to see it >> really means the original type "M.t". This requires more coding but >> the weekend has ended in the far east already :-) (It's 0:24 Monday >> now.) >> >> Jun >> >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:12 AM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> wrote: >> > Cool! That was quick. >> > >> > Does this patch also implement stephen's fewest-number-of-dots >> heuristic? I >> > was thinking one nice approach would be fewest-number-of-dots with ties >> > broken by length of final identifier. >> > >> > Y >> > >> > Yaron Minsky >> > >> > On Oct 11, 2009, at 10:57 AM, Jun Furuse <jun.furuse@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> >> I have quickly wrote a small patch against 3.11.1 for this feature, to >> >> see what it would be like. >> >> >> >> >> http://sites.google.com/a/furuse.info/jun/hacks/other-small-ocaml-patches >> >> >> >> With this patch, path names are printed without opened modules in the >> >> context. It also tries heuristic data type name simplification: if a >> >> variant/record data type is an alias of another data type whose name >> >> is shorter than the original, the printer uses the latter. >> >> >> >> For example: >> >> >> >> # open Hashtbl;; >> >> # let tbl = Hashtbl.create 10;; >> >> val tbl : ('_a, '_b) t = <abstr> (* not Hashtbl.t, since Hashtbl >> is >> >> open *) >> >> >> >> # type t = int;; >> >> type t = int >> >> # type long_name = int;; >> >> type long_name = int >> >> # (1 : t);; >> >> - : t = 1 (* t is the shorter than its original >> type >> >> int *) >> >> # (1 : long_name);; >> >> - : int = 1 (* int is shorter name for long_name. t >> >> is even shorter but not aliased unfortunatelly. *) >> >> >> >> I warn you that the patch is very quickly written and not tested well. >> >> Enjoy! >> >> >> >> Jun >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> And you can compete to come up with the most innocuous code that comes >> up >> >>> with the longest type. Here's my current favorite: >> >>> >> >>> # open Option.Monad_infix;; >> >>> # Map.find m 3 >>| fun x -> x + 1;; >> >>> - : int Core.Std.Option.Monad_infix.monad = Some 4 >> >>> >> >>> Which of course could be rendered as: >> >>> >> >>> # open Option.Monad_infix;; >> >>> # Map.find m 3 >>| fun x -> x + 1;; >> >>> - : int option = Some 4 >> >>> >> >>> y >> >>> >> >>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> Anyone who plays around with the Core library that Jane Street just >> >>>> released can see showcased a rather ugly detail of how Core's design >> >>>> interacts with how OCaml displays types. Witness: >> >>>> >> >>>> # Int.of_string;; >> >>>> - : string -> Core.Std.Int.stringable = <fun> >> >>>> # Float.of_string;; >> >>>> - : string -> Core_extended.Std.Float.stringable = <fun> >> >>>> >> >>>> I'd be much happier if this was rendered in the following equally >> >>>> correct >> >>>> and more readable form: >> >>>> >> >>>> # Int.of_string;; >> >>>> - : string -> Int.t = <fun> >> >>>> # Float.of_string;; >> >>>> - : string -> Float.t = <fun> >> >>>> >> >>>> Or even: >> >>>> >> >>>> # Int.of_string;; >> >>>> - : string -> int = <fun> >> >>>> # Float.of_string;; >> >>>> - : string -> float = <fun> >> >>>> >> >>>> And this isn't just an issue in the top-level. The compiler also >> >>>> displays >> >>>> types in the same difficult to read form. I'm wondering if anyone >> has >> >>>> some >> >>>> thoughts as to what we can do to make the compiler make better >> choices >> >>>> here. There are two issues to overcome: >> >>>> >> >>>> Dropping the module name. I'd love to give the compiler the hint >> that >> >>>> Core.Std. could be dropped from the prefix in a context where that >> >>>> module is >> >>>> open. This is what's done with the pervasives module already, I >> >>>> believe, so >> >>>> it seems like it should be doable here. >> >>>> Choosing shorter names. This one seems harder, but there are various >> >>>> different possibilities for what type name to print out, and a >> >>>> reasonable >> >>>> heuristic to use might be to pick the shortest one. Part of the >> reason >> >>>> these issues come up is our use of standardized interface components >> >>>> (that's >> >>>> where the "stringable" type name comes from). I suspect this one >> will >> >>>> be >> >>>> hard to fix, sadly. >> >>>> >> >>>> Anyway, we'd be happy with any suggestions on how to improve matters. >> >>>> >> >>>> y >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management: >> >>> http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list >> >>> Archives: http://caml.inria.fr >> >>> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners >> >>> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >> >>> >> >>> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management: >> http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list >> Archives: http://caml.inria.fr >> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners >> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management: > http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list > Archives: http://caml.inria.fr > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 14277 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [Caml-list] Improving OCaml's choice of type to display 2009-10-11 21:46 ` Gilles Pirio @ 2009-10-11 22:16 ` Lukasz Stafiniak 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Lukasz Stafiniak @ 2009-10-11 22:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Gilles Pirio; +Cc: caml-list You need to use a type alias: # type ('a, 'b) func = 'a -> 'b;; type ('a, 'b) func = 'a -> 'b # let castro a = (fun _ -> a : ('a,'b) func);; val castro : 'a -> ('b, 'a) func = <fun> This is also how the compiler decides the arity of C functions from "external" declarations, that is, it "counts the arrows" without unfolding type aliases. On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 11:46 PM, Gilles Pirio <gilles.ocaml@googlemail.com> wrote: > Hey Damien > > Sure, I fully understand that both types are equivalent given the rules > governing the application operator. My point was more on the usability side, > as the type display is primarily intended at helping the programmer to > quickly figure out type mismatch. So I'd think having a display allowing to > quickly distinguish between the noe and castro functions below would be a > good thing, especially for beginners. I've been using ocaml for a few years > now, and I have to say that it's not a major issue any more - just wanted to > give some feedback about this. > > Thanks > Gilles > > > # let noe a b = a;; > val noe : 'a -> 'b -> 'a = <fun> > # let castro a = fun _ -> a;; > val castro : 'a -> 'b -> 'a = <fun> > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [Caml-list] Improving OCaml's choice of type to display 2009-10-09 1:40 Improving OCaml's choice of type to display Yaron Minsky 2009-10-09 1:53 ` Yaron Minsky @ 2009-10-09 7:33 ` Andrej Bauer 2009-10-09 9:58 ` Yaron Minsky 2009-10-09 18:14 ` Stephen Weeks 1 sibling, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Andrej Bauer @ 2009-10-09 7:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: yminsky; +Cc: caml-list On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 3:40 AM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> wrote: > Choosing shorter names. By which you probably mean "the fewest number of dots (module projections)". It might be a bit annoying if the code that prints doesn't know what modules are open. What do the INRIA priests say? Andrej ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [Caml-list] Improving OCaml's choice of type to display 2009-10-09 7:33 ` Andrej Bauer @ 2009-10-09 9:58 ` Yaron Minsky 2009-10-09 10:54 ` Alp Mestan 2009-10-09 14:18 ` Damien Guichard 2009-10-09 18:14 ` Stephen Weeks 1 sibling, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Yaron Minsky @ 2009-10-09 9:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Andrej Bauer; +Cc: caml-list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 608 bytes --] Well, if we're picking heuristics, the fewest number of characters wouldn't be crazy either. Given the choice between Int.t and Int.comparable (which are aliases for the same type), I'd prefer to see Int.t. y On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 3:33 AM, Andrej Bauer <andrej.bauer@andrej.com>wrote: > On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 3:40 AM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> wrote: > > Choosing shorter names. > > By which you probably mean "the fewest number of dots (module > projections)". It might be a bit annoying if the code that prints > doesn't know what modules are open. What do the INRIA priests say? > > Andrej > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1007 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [Caml-list] Improving OCaml's choice of type to display 2009-10-09 9:58 ` Yaron Minsky @ 2009-10-09 10:54 ` Alp Mestan 2009-10-09 11:15 ` Yaron Minsky 2009-10-09 14:18 ` Damien Guichard 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Alp Mestan @ 2009-10-09 10:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: yminsky; +Cc: Andrej Bauer, caml-list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1268 bytes --] Can't there be a trick by playing with, e.g, ocamlmktop, which could open Core and its main submodules by default, like it's done with Pervasives and, IIRC, Batteries ? On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 11:58 AM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> wrote: > Well, if we're picking heuristics, the fewest number of characters wouldn't > be crazy either. Given the choice between Int.t and Int.comparable (which > are aliases for the same type), I'd prefer to see Int.t. > > y > > > On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 3:33 AM, Andrej Bauer <andrej.bauer@andrej.com>wrote: > >> On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 3:40 AM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> wrote: >> > Choosing shorter names. >> >> By which you probably mean "the fewest number of dots (module >> projections)". It might be a bit annoying if the code that prints >> doesn't know what modules are open. What do the INRIA priests say? >> >> Andrej >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management: > http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list > Archives: http://caml.inria.fr > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > > -- Alp Mestan http://alpmestan.wordpress.com/ http://alp.developpez.com/ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2437 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [Caml-list] Improving OCaml's choice of type to display 2009-10-09 10:54 ` Alp Mestan @ 2009-10-09 11:15 ` Yaron Minsky 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Yaron Minsky @ 2009-10-09 11:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Alp Mestan; +Cc: Andrej Bauer, caml-list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1660 bytes --] On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 6:54 AM, Alp Mestan <alp@mestan.fr> wrote: > Can't there be a trick by playing with, e.g, ocamlmktop, which could open > Core and its main submodules by default, like it's done with Pervasives and, > IIRC, Batteries ? > Maybe. Although to be honest my main concern is not with the top-level, but rather with the errors given out by ocamlc, and the type-inference hints given by the -dtypes flag. The naming choices are easiest to see in the toplevel, but they show up all over the place. y > On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 11:58 AM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Well, if we're picking heuristics, the fewest number of characters >> wouldn't be crazy either. Given the choice between Int.t and Int.comparable >> (which are aliases for the same type), I'd prefer to see Int.t. >> >> y >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 3:33 AM, Andrej Bauer <andrej.bauer@andrej.com>wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 3:40 AM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > Choosing shorter names. >>> >>> By which you probably mean "the fewest number of dots (module >>> projections)". It might be a bit annoying if the code that prints >>> doesn't know what modules are open. What do the INRIA priests say? >>> >>> Andrej >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management: >> http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list >> Archives: http://caml.inria.fr >> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners >> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >> >> > > > -- > Alp Mestan > http://alpmestan.wordpress.com/ > http://alp.developpez.com/ > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3351 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [Caml-list] Improving OCaml's choice of type to display 2009-10-09 9:58 ` Yaron Minsky 2009-10-09 10:54 ` Alp Mestan @ 2009-10-09 14:18 ` Damien Guichard 2009-10-09 14:44 ` Vincent Aravantinos 2009-10-09 16:52 ` Yaron Minsky 1 sibling, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Damien Guichard @ 2009-10-09 14:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: caml-list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2585 bytes --] Hi Yaron, I think you better think twice about the problem in general (rather than the particular needs of Core) before proposing some controversial type display improvement. Imagine my code is: type color = int let black : color = 0 Then, following your proposition, evaluating black should give me an int rather than a color because int is shorter and therefore nicer. So, now, what's the point in the color type declaration ? There is none, type aliasing becomes useless because you can't expose it. Call me crazy but i whish i can use more than 3 characters as a type name. So you want it to be displayed as an Int.t rather than an Int.comparable ? Then just declare it as Int.t rather than Int.comparable, or choose another shorter name, it's not an OCaml issue, its' a Core issue. (obviously it would really help if no english word would be more than 6 characters but Ocaml can't be blamed for that) I mean, when designing an elaborate software library, you have to make choices, and often, no matter how good OCaml is, some choices will be compromises. You have to pick the lesser between several evils and live with it. I have learned that when programming Ocaml-Idaho, suddenly module names become longer, module types become more composited, data types become more subtle, and so on and so on... Blaming OCaml is a too easy path. At one certain point you have to face the verbosity you have created and decide whether the additionnal expressivity worths the price. If you think it does then it's ok, if not then just amend, if amending doesn't help then consider refactoring. Seek the best expressiveness/verbosity ratio without sacrifying too much functionality. That's your job as a library designer. - damien En réponse au message de : Yaron Minsky du : 2009-10-09 11:58:11 À : Andrej Bauer CC : caml-list@yquem.inria.fr Sujet : Re: [Caml-list] Improving OCaml's choice of type to display Well, if we're picking heuristics, the fewest number of characters wouldn't be crazy either. Given the choice between Int.t and Int.comparable (which are aliases for the same type), I'd prefer to see Int.t. y On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 3:33 AM, Andrej Bauer <andrej.bauer@andrej.com> wrote: On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 3:40 AM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> wrote: > Choosing shorter names. By which you probably mean "the fewest number of dots (module projections)". It might be a bit annoying if the code that prints doesn't know what modules are open. What do the INRIA priests say? Andrej [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 7403 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [Caml-list] Improving OCaml's choice of type to display 2009-10-09 14:18 ` Damien Guichard @ 2009-10-09 14:44 ` Vincent Aravantinos 2009-10-09 15:27 ` David Allsopp 2009-10-09 16:52 ` Yaron Minsky 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Vincent Aravantinos @ 2009-10-09 14:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Damien Guichard; +Cc: caml-list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 565 bytes --] Hi, can't you just say that you spotted a problem in the proposed solution instead of being so aggressive? Removing all the useless sentences of your message just leave this: Le 9 oct. 09 à 16:18, Damien Guichard a écrit : > Imagine my code is: > > type color = int > > let black : color = 0 > > Then, following your proposition, evaluating black should give me an > int rather than a color because int is shorter and therefore nicer. which is indeed relevant and exposes a problem not faced in the previous mails. Thanks, V. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2581 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* RE: [Caml-list] Improving OCaml's choice of type to display 2009-10-09 14:44 ` Vincent Aravantinos @ 2009-10-09 15:27 ` David Allsopp 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: David Allsopp @ 2009-10-09 15:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 'Vincent Aravantinos', 'Damien Guichard'; +Cc: caml-list > Le 9 oct. 09 à 16:18, Damien Guichard a écrit : > > > Imagine my code is: > > type color = int > > let black : color = 0 > > Then, following your proposition, evaluating black should give me an int rather than a color because int is shorter and therefore nicer. Hmm, I'd say that having OCaml respond "val black : int = 0" is indeed the more useful answer (but not because int is shorter)... there are quite often times where you get complex looking types (for good reason) which are in fact aliases of much simpler types where it would (IMO) be much nicer for OCaml to "call a spade a spade" and just tell you it's an int (Set.Make and Map.Make being obvious cases[1]). Perhaps OCaml could make us both happy by responding "val black : color = int = 0" (i.e. show the inferred and possibly aliased type and also the principal base type, if it's different from the inferred type) The "unnecessary" complexity of the type names can also arise quite easily if you're using with functors so need to present a particular type to satisfy a signature - at which point having Foo.Bar.Other.Module.t (which is in fact an int) may create irritatingly long type messages but the structure being that way is probably hugely useful when it gets applied to Magic.Make(Foo) elsewhere... David [1] Consider, somewhat obtusely, [let x : Map.Make(String).key = ""] (which in real code is inferred rather more trivially from anything manipulating sets and maps) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [Caml-list] Improving OCaml's choice of type to display 2009-10-09 14:18 ` Damien Guichard 2009-10-09 14:44 ` Vincent Aravantinos @ 2009-10-09 16:52 ` Yaron Minsky 2009-10-09 18:23 ` Damien Guichard 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Yaron Minsky @ 2009-10-09 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Damien Guichard; +Cc: caml-list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4704 bytes --] I do basically think of this as a deficiency in the compiler as opposed to a deficiency in core (although it's hardly a major deficiency in the compiler). Signatures, modules and functors are an important part of the language, and if you want to use them in a significant way, then you will end up having multiple paths to get to the same type. OCaml's algorithm for choosing the type to display is somewhat unfortunate in this regard. If you have a design approach that simultaneously makes good use of functors, modules and signatures and makes OCaml's type-to-display-selector happy, I'd be very interested in hearing it. Finally, the specific point you make argues against the specific heuristic (smallest type name) I proposed, but not against all other heuristics. Another heuristic which I think has some potential is choosing the type name with the smallest number of dots. (also, as a matter of personal preference, in the case that you outline, I would prefer the answer of "int" to "color", but that is just a coincidence, of course.) To be clear, some of this stuff can be made better by using signature functors, but that has its own problems in terms of messiness and boilerplate. That said, I have half a mind to write a syntax extension to clean that up, and switch over to signature functors, for this and other reasons. That said, signature functors only clean up a little bit of the problem. y On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Damien Guichard <alphablock@orange.fr>wrote: > > Hi Yaron, > > I think you better think twice about the problem in general (rather than > the particular needs of Core) before proposing some controversial type > display improvement. > > Imagine my code is: > > type color = int > > let black : color = 0 > > Then, following your proposition, evaluating *black* should give me an * > int* rather than a *color* because *int* is shorter and therefore nicer. > > So, now, what's the point in the *color* type declaration ? > There is none, type aliasing becomes useless because you can't expose it. > Call me crazy but i whish i can use more than 3 characters as a type name. > > So you want it to be displayed as an *Int.t* rather than an * > Int.comparable* ? > Then just declare it as *Int.t* rather than *Int.comparable*, or choose > another shorter name, it's not an OCaml issue, its' a Core issue. > (obviously it would really help if no english word would be more than 6 > characters but Ocaml can't be blamed for that) > > I mean, when designing an elaborate software library, you have to make > choices, and often, no matter how good OCaml is, some choices will be > compromises. You have to pick the lesser between several evils and live with > it. > > I have learned that when programming Ocaml-Idaho<https://forge.ocamlcore.org/projects/ocaml-idaho/>, > suddenly module names become longer, module types become more composited, > data types become more subtle, and so on and so on... > > Blaming OCaml is a too easy path. > > At one certain point you have to face the verbosity *you* have created and > decide whether the additionnal expressivity worths the price. > If you think it does then it's ok, if not then just amend, if amending > doesn't help then consider refactoring. > Seek the best expressiveness/verbosity ratio without sacrifying too much > functionality. > That's your job as a library designer. > > > - *damien* > > > ------------------------------ > *En réponse au message* > *de :* Yaron Minsky > *du :* 2009-10-09 11:58:11 > *À :* Andrej Bauer > *CC :* caml-list@yquem.inria.fr > *Sujet :* Re: [Caml-list] Improving OCaml's choice of type to display > > Well, if we're picking heuristics, the fewest number of characters wouldn't > be crazy either. Given the choice between Int.t and Int.comparable (which > are aliases for the same type), I'd prefer to see Int.t. > > y > > On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 3:33 AM, Andrej Bauer <andrej.bauer@andrej.com>wrote: > >> On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 3:40 AM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> wrote: >> > Choosing shorter names. >> >> By which you probably mean "the fewest number of dots (module >> projections)". It might be a bit annoying if the code that prints >> doesn't know what modules are open. What do the INRIA priests say? >> >> Andrej >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management: > http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list > Archives: http://caml.inria.fr > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 8511 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [Caml-list] Improving OCaml's choice of type to display 2009-10-09 16:52 ` Yaron Minsky @ 2009-10-09 18:23 ` Damien Guichard 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Damien Guichard @ 2009-10-09 18:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: caml-list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 8553 bytes --] > If you have a design approach that simultaneously makes good use of functors, > modules and signatures and makes OCaml's type-to-display-selector happy, I'd be very interested in hearing it. Indeed, good use of functors, modules and signatures doesn't come without type verbosity. I have also faced it, it's a real concern. The Core user or library user has to be tolerant, not every type can be called t, not every module can be called M, modules have to include further modules, as a result type paths become longer. Plus functors add module as parameters and as a result types become more difficult to interpret. Main part of the answer lies in accepting the cultural shock. More capable code libraries come with a steepier learning curve, both as a user and as an implementer. > To be clear, some of this stuff can be made better by using signature functors, but that has its own problems in terms of messiness and > boilerplate. Ocaml-Idaho signatures are done by composing more elementary module types. As a result the design is highly modular but you end up with more boilerplate and type equalities. However type equalities have a good reason, they capture the context. The context is more important than what the actual type is. May be the toplevel could be more aware of opened modules then your example would be rendered as : # open Option.Monad_infix;; # Map.find m 3 >>| fun x -> x + 1;; - : int monad = Some 4 That would be much shorter without erasing type equalities. - damien PS: As a module design example here is an excerpt of the OCaml-Idaho UnbalancedMap module, which has both a Mutable and a Pure version implemented as recursive modules. On one hand it's pure boilerplate, on the other hand it's just plain usage of ML modules. module rec Mutable : functor (Ord: Interfaces.Ordered) -> sig include Interfaces.MutableMap with type key = Ord.ordered include Interfaces.MutableKeySet with type 'a set = 'a map and type set_key = key include Interfaces.OrderedKeyFoldable with type 'a foldable = 'a map and type fold_key = key val inserted: key -> 'a -> 'a map -> bool val root_inserted: key -> 'a -> 'a map -> bool val flatten_map: (key -> 'a -> 'a map) -> 'a map -> 'a map val to_pure: 'a map -> 'a Pure(Ord).map val to_pure_unsafe: 'a map -> 'a Pure(Ord).map end = functor (Ord: Interfaces.Ordered) -> struct include BinaryTree_Keyed.Make(Ord) module Order = Ord type 'a map = 'a tree ref type 'a foldable = 'a map and fold_key = key type ('a,'b) fold = (key -> 'a -> 'b -> 'b) -> 'b -> 'a map -> 'b type 'a set = 'a map type set_key = key type 'a set_select = 'a select ... end and Pure : functor (Ord: Interfaces.Ordered) -> sig include Interfaces.PureMap with type key = Ord.ordered include Interfaces.PureKeySet with type 'a set = 'a map and type set_key = key include Interfaces.OrderedKeyFoldable with type 'a foldable = 'a map and type fold_key = key val root_add: key -> 'a -> 'a map -> 'a map val splay_add: key -> 'a -> 'a map -> 'a map val splay_lookup: key -> 'a map -> 'a map * 'a option val splay_find: key -> 'a map -> 'a map * 'a val flatten_map: (key -> 'a -> 'a map) -> 'a map -> 'a map val to_mutable: 'a map -> 'a Mutable(Ord).map val to_mutable_unsafe: 'a map -> 'a Mutable(Ord).map end = functor (Ord: Interfaces.Ordered) -> struct include BinaryTree_Keyed.Make(Ord) module Order = Ord type 'a map = 'a tree type 'a foldable = 'a map and fold_key = key type ('a,'b) fold = (key -> 'a -> 'b -> 'b) -> 'b -> 'a map -> 'b type 'a set = 'a map type set_key = key type 'a set_select = 'a select ... end En réponse au message de : Yaron Minsky du : 2009-10-09 18:52:40 À : Damien Guichard CC : caml-list@yquem.inria.fr Sujet : Re: [Caml-list] Improving OCaml's choice of type to display I do basically think of this as a deficiency in the compiler as opposed to a deficiency in core (although it's hardly a major deficiency in the compiler). Signatures, modules and functors are an important part of the language, and if you want to use them in a significant way, then you will end up having multiple paths to get to the same type. OCaml's algorithm for choosing the type to display is somewhat unfortunate in this regard. If you have a design approach that simultaneously makes good use of functors, modules and signatures and makes OCaml's type-to-display-selector happy, I'd be very interested in hearing it. Finally, the specific point you make argues against the specific heuristic (smallest type name) I proposed, but not against all other heuristics. Another heuristic which I think has some potential is choosing the type name with the smallest number of dots. (also, as a matter of personal preference, in the case that you outline, I would prefer the answer of "int" to "color", but that is just a coincidence, of course.) To be clear, some of this stuff can be made better by using signature functors, but that has its own problems in terms of messiness and boilerplate. That said, I have half a mind to write a syntax extension to clean that up, and switch over to signature functors, for this and other reasons. That said, signature functors only clean up a little bit of the problem. y On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Damien Guichard <alphablock@orange.fr> wrote: Hi Yaron, I think you better think twice about the problem in general (rather than the particular needs of Core) before proposing some controversial type display improvement. Imagine my code is: type color = int let black : color = 0 Then, following your proposition, evaluating black should give me an int rather than a color because int is shorter and therefore nicer. So, now, what's the point in the color type declaration ? There is none, type aliasing becomes useless because you can't expose it. Call me crazy but i whish i can use more than 3 characters as a type name. So you want it to be displayed as an Int.t rather than an Int.comparable ? Then just declare it as Int.t rather than Int.comparable, or choose another shorter name, it's not an OCaml issue, its' a Core issue. (obviously it would really help if no english word would be more than 6 characters but Ocaml can't be blamed for that) I mean, when designing an elaborate software library, you have to make choices, and often, no matter how good OCaml is, some choices will be compromises. You have to pick the lesser between several evils and live with it. I have learned that when programming Ocaml-Idaho, suddenly module names become longer, module types become more composited, data types become more subtle, and so on and so on... Blaming OCaml is a too easy path. At one certain point you have to face the verbosity you have created and decide whether the additionnal expressivity worths the price. If you think it does then it's ok, if not then just amend, if amending doesn't help then consider refactoring. Seek the best expressiveness/verbosity ratio without sacrifying too much functionality. That's your job as a library designer. - damien En réponse au message de : Yaron Minsky du : 2009-10-09 11:58:11 À : Andrej Bauer CC : caml-list@yquem.inria.fr Sujet : Re: [Caml-list] Improving OCaml's choice of type to display Well, if we're picking heuristics, the fewest number of characters wouldn't be crazy either. Given the choice between Int.t and Int.comparable (which are aliases for the same type), I'd prefer to see Int.t. y On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 3:33 AM, Andrej Bauer <andrej.bauer@andrej.com> wrote: On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 3:40 AM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> wrote: > Choosing shorter names. By which you probably mean "the fewest number of dots (module projections)". It might be a bit annoying if the code that prints doesn't know what modules are open. What do the INRIA priests say? Andrej _______________________________________________ Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management: http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 19250 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [Caml-list] Improving OCaml's choice of type to display 2009-10-09 7:33 ` Andrej Bauer 2009-10-09 9:58 ` Yaron Minsky @ 2009-10-09 18:14 ` Stephen Weeks 2009-10-10 15:08 ` Damien Guichard 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Stephen Weeks @ 2009-10-09 18:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: caml-list On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 3:33 AM, Andrej Bauer <andrej.bauer@andrej.com> wrote: > On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 3:40 AM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> wrote: >> Choosing shorter names. > > By which you probably mean "the fewest number of dots (module > projections)". That is the rule we used in MLton, breaking ties by most-recently-defined. It worked quite well in practice. See http://mlton.org/TypeChecking ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [Caml-list] Improving OCaml's choice of type to display 2009-10-09 18:14 ` Stephen Weeks @ 2009-10-10 15:08 ` Damien Guichard 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Damien Guichard @ 2009-10-10 15:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: caml-list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1167 bytes --] As Ocaml modules are essentially ML modules, the MLton experience is certainly one to be carefully considered. People, please don't hesitate to elaborate about how (un-)happy you are with ML/MLton alternate type naming strategies. - damien En réponse au message de : Stephen Weeks du : 2009-10-09 20:14:18 À : caml-list@yquem.inria.fr CC : Sujet : Re: [Caml-list] Improving OCaml's choice of type to display On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 3:33 AM, Andrej Bauer <andrej.bauer@andrej.com > wrote: > On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 3:40 AM, Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com > wrote: > > Choosing shorter names. > > By which you probably mean "the fewest number of dots (module > projections)". That is the rule we used in MLton, breaking ties by most-recently-defined. It worked quite well in practice. See http://mlton.org/TypeChecking _______________________________________________ Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management: http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4757 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2009-10-11 22:16 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 20+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2009-10-09 1:40 Improving OCaml's choice of type to display Yaron Minsky 2009-10-09 1:53 ` Yaron Minsky 2009-10-11 14:57 ` [Caml-list] " Jun Furuse 2009-10-11 15:12 ` Yaron Minsky 2009-10-11 15:24 ` Jun Furuse 2009-10-11 19:57 ` Gilles Pirio 2009-10-11 21:17 ` [Caml-list] " Damien Guichard 2009-10-11 21:46 ` Gilles Pirio 2009-10-11 22:16 ` Lukasz Stafiniak 2009-10-09 7:33 ` Andrej Bauer 2009-10-09 9:58 ` Yaron Minsky 2009-10-09 10:54 ` Alp Mestan 2009-10-09 11:15 ` Yaron Minsky 2009-10-09 14:18 ` Damien Guichard 2009-10-09 14:44 ` Vincent Aravantinos 2009-10-09 15:27 ` David Allsopp 2009-10-09 16:52 ` Yaron Minsky 2009-10-09 18:23 ` Damien Guichard 2009-10-09 18:14 ` Stephen Weeks 2009-10-10 15:08 ` Damien Guichard
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