From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Original-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Delivered-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104]) by sympa.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0EC5581799 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2013 10:47:02 +0200 (CEST) Received-SPF: None (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of ml@pulsschlag.net) identity=pra; client-ip=212.227.126.171; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="ml@pulsschlag.net"; x-sender="ml@pulsschlag.net"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: None (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of ml@pulsschlag.net) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=212.227.126.171; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="ml@pulsschlag.net"; x-sender="ml@pulsschlag.net"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: Pass (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: domain of postmaster@moutng.kundenserver.de designates 212.227.126.171 as permitted sender) identity=helo; client-ip=212.227.126.171; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="ml@pulsschlag.net"; x-sender="postmaster@moutng.kundenserver.de"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible; x-record-type="v=spf1" X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AiwCAOdB7lHU436rbWdsb2JhbABbgzuuZpIjgREWDgsLDAYWAyWCJAEBBAFuCwULCxgNISEkBAENBhMSAodqAwkKCK9sAwqIXoljg0WCODMHgxBuA48ZhluDEoR6hgSIOg X-IPAS-Result: AiwCAOdB7lHU436rbWdsb2JhbABbgzuuZpIjgREWDgsLDAYWAyWCJAEBBAFuCwULCxgNISEkBAENBhMSAodqAwkKCK9sAwqIXoljg0WCODMHgxBuA48ZhluDEoR6hgSIOg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.89,725,1367964000"; d="scan'208";a="21981256" Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de ([212.227.126.171]) by mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-SHA; 23 Jul 2013 10:47:01 +0200 Received: from [192.168.81.189] (wlserv2c6.mis.mpg.de [141.5.26.45]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrbap1) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MPqr4-1V5PrD3ihG-004Tza; Tue, 23 Jul 2013 10:46:54 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Keyan In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 10:46:41 +0200 Cc: Anil Madhavapeddy , Gerd Stolpmann , caml-list@inria.fr, godi-list@ocaml-programming.de Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <71283BB9-C314-490E-B9ED-B3638DB6914D@pulsschlag.net> References: <1e141e2803d9dec6a8231dd4f16dd173.squirrel@gps.dynxs.de> <9682B571-11D0-4B1D-A8A4-6074E98C7519@recoil.org> To: Gabriel Scherer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:uvhY7v55wo/fWL3BvcWb+Y2Rj+M0YMtWgCjUyarsKQS Ev7DeGJg6oF+iDtJPgwKTsxsuGBJsLrZN1QzRgWYUYBH3x7YgE UWb/OF9xUcnkqyMzQ3BJx5FhL5bS/Hy4qGEXz0GUmdCPQPk5Xo 13ri/RphjpduxJJ8eh0980x/Rb8mYL2Sd2KC4332JZTx89igaK 9b2dpgNZlCtxFNPjo1wQXHlG0cwsFyJijhBAKf9T1Y1wIVS6wE FE2mTpJfrfLyIPSDBJu0Du20/59+p2hEI6INhhQmJyiUrLaReP hJG6i6B1wisXkmILY7xydwdGWhVz+9ASMdRe3UdInDjoyRbtUn WtXG/sDUpJYAyY9OIKAU62lprL6Hsp39E38JZKwcl2M4y7ieUB 7vzm23t5DIR5A== Subject: Re: [Caml-list] GODI is shutting down Just to through in my 2 cents. I didn't understand what GODI did, when I fi= rst tried it. Therefore, I sticked with my OS package manage for a long tim= e (home-brew on Mac OS X). The reason I now use OPAM, it worked straight ou= t of the box, and I know exactly what is happening. The biggest benefit: th= ere is a clean and easy way to uninstall everything (rm -rf ~/.opam), which= is the killer argument for me. This is not intended to heat up the discussion, but to explain, from a regu= lar user perspective, why I chose opam over godi. Cheers, Keyan On 23 Jul 2013, at 08:49, Gabriel Scherer wrote: > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:32 AM, Anil Madhavapeddy wro= te: >> Instead of doing such a heroic solo job (which I'm not being funny about= -- >> it really is a lot of work), why not spend the time to open up GODI as w= ell? >>=20 >> Most of the OPAM package descriptions come from *other people*. We just = review >> them, give feedback if necessary, click the merge button and fix errors = that >> creep through. And even that takes up a surprising amount of time... >=20 > To be fair, I never felt GODI to be a closed system. There are in fact > a reasonable number that were packaged by someone else than Gerd (see > http://godi.camlcity.org/godi/packages.html , the "released by" field > on packages; several were packaged by Virgile Prevosto, for example). > It's more that the packaging for GODI is a bit more difficult, and > probably just as importantly as there never was a strong community > dynamics to contribute to GODI packaging. It is now the norm that > everyone should write a META file for ocamlfind, and it is becoming > the norm to package for OPAM, but GODI probably came too early at a > time where developers expected distributions to do the packaging work > (which Debian and Fedora still do superbly), and there never was much > of a community dynamics for GODI packaging. >=20 > And implementation-wise, I have had the pleasure of interacting with > Gerd a couple of time to discuss possible changes to ocamlfind, and I > did not get the impression that the project was "closed"; I'm quite > sure anyone could contribute (or have contributed) to GODI with a > well-justified, good-looking patch. >=20 > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:32 AM, Anil Madhavapeddy wro= te: >> On 22 Jul 2013, at 22:21, "Gerd Stolpmann" wrot= e: >>=20 >>> There is also another point that was driving me mad in the past weeks, >>> namely missing respect from the OPAM guys. Given the fact that OPAM is >>> only a thin layer around ocamlfind (and guess who wrote it), and given = the >>> fact that GODI was pioneering in many fields, I was expecting nicer >>> wordings, and less dumb campaigning ("we have 400 packages, and you only >>> 170"). OPAM is only harvesting what I seeded many years ago. >>=20 >> So when you describe the virtues of GODI, you call it 'advocating', and = when >> Fabrice describes the virtues of OPAM, it's 'dumb campaigning'. This is >> splendidly reminiscent of US politics! >>=20 >> I don't find any of this source-based package management particularly no= vel. >> I've worked in the OpenBSD ports tree since the late 90s, and it's way a= head >> of either OPAM or GODI. I think where OPAM contributes most over any oth= er >> source manager are the three points on the front page that I iterated ea= rlier >> in this thread: >>=20 >> - multiple simultaneous compiler installations. >> - flexible package constraints. >> - a Git-friendly development workflow. >>=20 >> The first is very useful, but PATH munging is certainly not novel. The G= it >> workflow is heavily inspired by Homebrew. >>=20 >> The constraint solver has seen a tremendous amount of work though: >> there's one version built into OPAM (tweaked relentlessly by Thomas with >> heuristics), and the external CUDF solvers from the Mancoosi project whi= ch >> are magically accurate (but not yet integrated by default until they are >> packaged on different repositories). >>=20 >> Anyway, I'm not a GODI user, but I think you're doing a disservice to yo= ur >> loyal GODI users if you shut it down in a huff. There are features (nota= bly >> Windows support) where it'll take OPAM some time to catch up. I think t= hat >> the real reason that you're shutting it is nothing to do with "respect",= but >> is good old-fashioned burnt-out: >>=20 >>> Although there are still a lot of GODI users, it is unavoidable to shut= GODI down due to lack of supporters, especially package developers. I was = more or less alone in the past months, and my time contingent will not allo= w it to do the upgrade to OCaml 4.01 alone (when it is released). >>=20 >> Instead of doing such a heroic solo job (which I'm not being funny about= -- >> it really is a lot of work), why not spend the time to open up GODI as w= ell? >>=20 >> Most of the OPAM package descriptions come from *other people*. We just = review >> them, give feedback if necessary, click the merge button and fix errors = that >> creep through. And even that takes up a surprising amount of time... >>=20 >> -anil >> -- >> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: >> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list >> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners >> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >=20 > --=20 > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs