From: Yoann Padioleau <padator@wanadoo.fr>
To: Jon Harrop <jon@ffconsultancy.com>
Cc: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] stl?
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 14:49:14 -0600 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <8763ipypx1.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <200903042007.43232.jon@ffconsultancy.com> (Jon Harrop's message of "Wed\, 4 Mar 2009 20\:07\:43 +0000")
Jon Harrop <jon@ffconsultancy.com> writes:
> On Wednesday 04 March 2009 16:48:18 Yoann Padioleau wrote:
>> I don't think so. I've read the last "history of C++" by Stroustrup
>> in HOPL-III, who discusses quite a lot about the STL and Stepanov,
>> and from what I remember unboxing was a big issue
>> and having "generic" (which is slightly different from polymorphic)
>> algorithms without introducing performance
>> penalty that object-solution has with dynamic dispatch was also
>> a big issue. Those people are not stupid.
>
> If they were not stupid, why were their innovations were dropped, e.g. Java,
> C# and even VB.NET
First, who cares about Java or C# or VB.NET ? Last time I checked,
all the software I use on my machine (linux, mozilla, apache, mysql, emacs,
X-windows, gtk, gnome, git, transmission, ...) are written in
C and sometimes C++ (well except the beautiful ocamlopt and ocamldebug).
>From what I know, most Microsoft software are still written in C++
(Office, Visual Studio, the kernel, etc), and most Apple software
too (with sometimes some objective C stuff). Do we have an example
of a Java killer-app ?
> provide parametric polymorphism from ML (aka generics)
> instead of C++ templates?
But haven't they added generics in Java because Java programmers
wanted some of the capabilities of C++ templates ? They even
use its syntax, and recent Java has added some ugly extensions
with some star-stuff around it that I don't understand. So I think
Java generics are closer to C++ templates than ML parametric polymorphism
and its inference.
And Java has decided to not follow C++ on many things, they also
don't have overloading, they have a GC, etc. It's just not the
same target.
>
>> They know about ML.
>
> IIRC Alex Stepanov claimed to know ML but then made a series of factually
> incorrect statements about it, e.g. "phantom types do not exist".
I know ML and I don't know those phantom types thing. And if they are
"phantom", isn't he right indeed that they do not actually exist ?
Do ML designers really know C++ and all its lastest features too
as in C++0x ?
> His
> published work includes nothing on anything related to ML:
>
> http://www.stepanovpapers.com/
>
> I do not believe they knew about ML.
I think at least Stroustrup mentions in its "the design and
evolution of C++" book some comparisons with ML.
But probably at that time ML didn't
have yet the functor stuff, just the parametric polymorphism.
>
>> C++ even has some advanced dependent types in some way (array<n>).
>
> I would not call it "advanced". C++'s type system was accidentally Turing
> complete in a very practically limited way.
>
> Haskell is similar in this respect: check Oleg's 600-line GHC-extended Haskell
> equivalent of the OCaml code:
>
> `a
>
> That's what the "power" of Turing completeness buys you.
:) Indeed. Many of those typing-guru tricks are as ugly and incomprensible
than all the tricks people use with C++ expression templates.
>
>> I hate C++ with a passion, but the C++ designers are far from stupid.
>
> C++ is the pedagogical example of bad language design.
That's what I was thinking before reading Stroustrup's HOPL-III paper
where you can a chance to get inside the head of stroustrup and the
rationale for many of his decisions.
Stroustrup wanted a transition path from C to OO, and he wanted
to make that possible without introducing any bit of performance
penalty versus a hand crafted C program, because he knew
the programmers he targeted were really stubborn on performance
and then even a 1% overhead would not be accepted (you can call
those programmers morons, but that's the kind of people he
wanted to have an impact on). He succeeded.
> I've learned about 20
> programming languages now and every one taught me something new. C++ taught
> me what happens when you let idiots loose on programming language design and
> get industry to hype the result regardless of its objective value.
C++ taught me that if you want to be really successful, you need a migration
path (or you need to wait for old programmers to die or that a
very different kind of platform arrives so that legacy code
does not matter any more, e.g. the web).
>
> I'm very happy to see C++ dying.
Is it ?
>
>> > Scripting languages were not so hot at the time, short of Perl, but
>> > Ruby would easily fit well into the STL idea, just like Lisp also did.
>>
>> No, because of the performance penalty of dispatch. Again, those C++
>> designer guys have strong requirments on performance.
>
> Their performance requirements were: destroy the performance of anything we
> are not familiar with in order to preserve the performance of familiar
> features
> regardless of the relative merits of the different approaches. That
> is really stupid and very counter productive, of course.
Did Stroustrup did that ? I never saw Stroustrup criticizing
other languages (but I've seend many Java people trashing C++).
>
>> Most of us can live with those overheads, but apparently they don't.
>
> No, we don't just live with the overheads. We reap the benefits of objectively
> well-engineered features like fast exceptions and fast garbage collection
> that C++ is incapable of.
>
> --
> Dr Jon Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
> http://www.ffconsultancy.com/?e
>
> _______________________________________________
> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management:
> http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list
> Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners
> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2009-03-04 20:49 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 72+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2009-03-03 21:40 stl? Raoul Duke
2009-03-03 22:31 ` [Caml-list] stl? Yoann Padioleau
2009-03-03 22:42 ` Till Varoquaux
2009-03-03 23:36 ` Jon Harrop
2009-03-04 0:13 ` Peng Zang
2009-03-04 0:58 ` Yoann Padioleau
2009-03-04 1:10 ` Raoul Duke
2009-03-04 1:19 ` Pal-Kristian Engstad
2009-03-04 1:21 ` Yoann Padioleau
2009-03-04 1:29 ` Jon Harrop
2009-03-04 14:26 ` Kuba Ober
2009-03-04 14:24 ` Kuba Ober
2009-03-03 23:42 ` Jon Harrop
2009-03-04 0:11 ` Brian Hurt
2009-03-04 1:05 ` Yoann Padioleau
2009-03-04 4:56 ` Brian Hurt
2009-03-04 20:11 ` Yoann Padioleau
2009-03-04 21:59 ` Brian Hurt
2009-03-04 22:42 ` Yoann Padioleau
2009-03-04 23:19 ` Jon Harrop
2009-03-04 23:03 ` Jon Harrop
2009-03-11 3:16 ` Brian Hurt
2009-03-11 5:57 ` David Rajchenbach-Teller
2009-03-11 6:11 ` David Rajchenbach-Teller
2009-03-04 1:59 ` Jon Harrop
2009-03-04 6:11 ` Brian Hurt
2009-03-04 14:08 ` Christophe TROESTLER
2009-03-04 14:19 ` Peng Zang
2009-03-04 16:14 ` Brian Hurt
2009-03-04 16:35 ` Andreas Rossberg
2009-03-04 16:40 ` Peng Zang
2009-03-04 21:43 ` Nicolas Pouillard
2009-03-05 11:24 ` Wolfgang Lux
2009-03-04 19:45 ` Jon Harrop
2009-03-04 21:23 ` Brian Hurt
2009-03-04 23:17 ` Jon Harrop
2009-03-05 2:26 ` stl? Stefan Monnier
2009-03-04 3:10 ` [Caml-list] stl? Martin Jambon
2009-03-04 6:18 ` Brian Hurt
2009-03-04 16:35 ` Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
2009-03-04 16:48 ` Yoann Padioleau
2009-03-04 20:07 ` Jon Harrop
2009-03-04 20:31 ` Richard Jones
2009-03-04 20:49 ` Yoann Padioleau [this message]
2009-03-04 21:20 ` Andreas Rossberg
2009-03-04 21:51 ` Pal-Kristian Engstad
2009-03-04 22:50 ` Jon Harrop
2009-03-04 23:18 ` Pal-Kristian Engstad
2009-03-05 1:31 ` Jon Harrop
2009-03-05 2:15 ` Pal-Kristian Engstad
2009-03-05 3:26 ` Jon Harrop
2009-03-05 6:22 ` yoann padioleau
2009-03-05 7:02 ` Raoul Duke
2009-03-05 8:07 ` Erick Tryzelaar
2009-03-05 9:06 ` Richard Jones
2009-03-05 9:34 ` malc
2009-03-05 9:56 ` Richard Jones
2009-03-05 10:49 ` malc
2009-03-05 11:16 ` Richard Jones
2009-03-05 12:39 ` malc
2009-03-05 19:39 ` Jon Harrop
2009-03-05 21:10 ` Pal-Kristian Engstad
2009-03-05 22:41 ` Richard Jones
2009-03-05 22:53 ` malc
2009-03-05 8:59 ` Richard Jones
2009-03-05 17:50 ` Raoul Duke
2009-03-05 8:17 ` Kuba Ober
2009-03-05 1:06 ` Jon Harrop
2009-03-05 9:09 ` Richard Jones
2009-03-05 20:44 ` Jon Harrop
2009-03-05 20:50 ` Jake Donham
2009-03-05 21:28 ` [Caml-list] OCaml's intermediate representations Jon Harrop
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=8763ipypx1.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu \
--to=padator@wanadoo.fr \
--cc=caml-list@yquem.inria.fr \
--cc=jon@ffconsultancy.com \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).