From: Michael Walter <michael.walter@gmail.com>
To: Thomas Fischbacher <Thomas.Fischbacher@physik.uni-muenchen.de>
Cc: Daniel Heck <dheck@ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>, caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] The boon of static type checking
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:52:36 -0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <877e9a1705021312525337a907@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0502131358230.8773@eiger.cip.physik.uni-muenchen.de>
Your argument regarding Lisp and O'caml ignores the fact that
programming languages are to a large part about syntax - for obviously
valid reasons like accessability, maintainability, expressiveness,
etc.
I feel I've mentioned that so many times it should be in some FAQ ;o)
Michael
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:28:42 +0100 (CET), Thomas Fischbacher
<Thomas.Fischbacher@physik.uni-muenchen.de> wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Feb 2005, Daniel Heck wrote:
>
> > > Could you give a specific example, but *please* one that is not related to
> > > killing people?
> >
> > Having seen you start this very discussion on another mailing list,
> > would you *please* consider taking this question to a list that is
> > dedicated to C++, just for a change?
>
> (1) I had to search a bit through my memories, but you are right in this
> point: this discussion also came up once on one other list I'm active on,
> which is (a) non-public and (b) on which a very broad range of topics are
> covered. Just had a check: my last article on that list was an explanation
> from a physicist's point of view of the infeasibility of using a research
> reactor's enriched uranium to build a nuclear weapon, after that question
> arouse. The next-to-last was personal experience concerning notebook
> repairs. My last message before that was about college fees in germany. We
> would have to go back in time through considerably more than a dozen of
> other topics that came up and where I posted a comment before we
> reach that single one programming language thread that arouse during
> the last five years.
>
> Perhaps only an independent member of both lists may objectively judge
> this, but to me it seems a bit as if you just picked out that one single
> discussion out of so many I've been involved in, furthermore from a
> non-public list - so that no one can check, to make me appear in a bad
> light. I really don't want to claim that this is bad intention from your
> side, especially as I would not expect members of that other list to
> spread libel, but you should be able to understand that, taking above
> facts into account, it actually has to look a lot like such from my
> perspective.
>
> (2) Concerning the objective claim that some of the C++ related postings
> on this list by me (and others) were a bit off-topic, you are right. Just
> as the discussion about state in Haskell, say. It might well be that some
> people consider this inappropriate to a larger extent, and some to a
> lesser. My personal point of view on this issue is that ocaml is a fringe
> language, and so one cannot reasonably do "just ocaml", but it is
> important to also look left and right, see what other people who come
> from different languages are lacking, and what they find great about
> ocaml. The perl community is especially great in listening to and learning
> from other communities, incorporating useful approaches in an
> unbureaucratic way (even if they sometimes choose inappropriate approaches
> which they later have to correct). At least, that was, I'd say, the
> primary key to perl's success: the ability to listen and understand.
>
> > Frankly, your only reason for
> > subscribing to this ML seems to be to extol the virtues of Lisp and to
> > bash C++, which is a nuisance for everyone who reads it in the hope of
> > learning about OCaml...
>
> If this is your personal impression, I fear, you totally must have missed
> the point in many of my postings!
>
> Let's concentrate on "the Lisp issue": yes, I would describe myself as a
> mostly Lisp guy. Nonwithstanding, I have done existing, real, working,
> free, known, large applications in ocaml. Concerning more recent
> discussions here, I tried to give a somewhat balanced view what aspects
> of ocaml I - as a lisp hacker - both especially love and especially
> dislike - you can check that in the archive.
>
> Ocaml is a new language, and as every new language, it first of all has to
> justify why it is appropriate to destroy synergy effects: every new
> language introduces barriers. Imagine you want to solve a problem which
> has two complex aspects for which libraries exist, but unfortunately, the
> one is written in, say, python, and the other one in sml/nj. Great
> situation. Besides this, every new language requires the
> re-implementation of a lot of core functionality in the form of
> libraries, which introduces lots of opportunities for both security
> problems and bad design, and burns a lot of human work.
>
> I think ocaml does have a score of features that justify its existence,
> see an earlier posting of mine that gives detailed reasons.
>
> But the discussion also showed that there seem to be widespread deep
> misconceptions concerning one simple question: what ideas *truly require*
> the invention of a new language, as they can not be added on top of an
> existing system? After all, we have perl, pike, php, python, rexx, ruby,
> scheme, tom, tcl, and many many more. Typically, these started out as "a
> quick small elegant solution to a specific problem" that required full
> programming flexibility. Gradually, people realized that they needed X
> plus support for more data types, then IPC (networking), database
> access, threads, various mime support, then... So, they all became more or
> less functionally equivalent (with different ugly quirks in the different
> systems), with the one distinguishing feature of nothing more than
> their indivuduality, that is, they cannot easily talk to one another.
> I consider this quite unfortunate, but perhaps not everyone will.
> Could it have been avoided, and if, how, and what can we learn for the
> future? I think the key to all this is the question: does X really require
> the introduction of a new programming language, or can we implement X as a
> library on top of an existing system? People just too hastily jump on the
> wagon of building a new language.
>
> As I saw it as evident in one case that practically no one would believe
> me otherwise, I showed in one posting - by explicit construction -
> that it is very well possible to add pattern matching to a language
> (which happened to be lisp, as it's the most extensible one) as a library.
> Hence constructor pattern matching support evidently does *not* belong to
> the set of properties that inevitably require the construction of an
> entire new system from scratch. Was this relevant to ocaml? For the
> following reason I strongly think so: whoever wants to introduce ocaml
> for a new project usually has to give a good justification for this.
> I occasionally get into precisely this situation myself. And I
> prefer to then use reasons that convince because they are true, and
> stay away from those which merely are easily believed but wrong.
>
> --
> regards, tf@cip.physik.uni-muenchen.de (o_
> Thomas Fischbacher - http://www.cip.physik.uni-muenchen.de/~tf //\
> (lambda (n) ((lambda (p q r) (p p q r)) (lambda (g x y) V_/_
> (if (= x 0) y (g g (- x 1) (* x y)))) n 1)) (Debian GNU)
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2005-02-13 20:52 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 169+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2005-02-02 21:31 Estimating the size of the ocaml community Yaron Minsky
2005-02-02 21:36 ` [Caml-list] " Christopher A. Watford
2005-02-02 21:54 ` Frédéric Gava
2005-02-03 3:58 ` skaller
2005-02-03 6:35 ` Erik de Castro Lopo
2005-02-03 16:29 ` Olivier Pérès
2005-02-03 18:06 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-03 18:34 ` Frédéric Gava
2005-02-03 21:16 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-03 21:58 ` Paul Snively
2005-02-03 22:42 ` Bardur Arantsson
2005-02-03 23:29 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-03 22:33 ` josh
2005-02-03 23:22 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-03 23:39 ` Richard Jones
2005-02-04 9:04 ` Frédéric Gava
2005-02-04 9:37 ` Richard Jones
2005-02-04 10:11 ` Olivier Andrieu
2005-02-04 11:14 ` Frédéric Gava
2005-02-04 12:15 ` Richard Jones
2005-02-04 12:46 ` Marcin 'Qrczak' Kowalczyk
2005-02-04 12:51 ` Gerd Stolpmann
2005-02-04 13:43 ` Richard W. M. Jones
2005-02-04 16:01 ` Gerd Stolpmann
2005-02-04 16:52 ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-04 17:21 ` Frédéric Gava
2005-02-04 17:55 ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-04 16:48 ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-04 12:15 ` Olivier Andrieu
2005-02-04 16:42 ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-04 10:58 ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-04 17:27 ` Damien Doligez
2005-02-04 17:59 ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-04 1:17 ` Michael Walter
2005-02-04 10:53 ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-04 22:01 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-05 12:27 ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-06 0:08 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-03 23:29 ` Richard Jones
2005-02-04 2:33 ` Jon Harrop
[not found] ` <877e9a170502031856175260c8@mail.gmail.com>
2005-02-04 2:56 ` Michael Walter
2005-02-04 10:26 ` [Caml-list] The boon of static type checking Jon Harrop
2005-02-04 17:02 ` Damien Doligez
2005-02-04 18:00 ` Jon Harrop
2005-02-04 20:38 ` Christophe TROESTLER
2005-02-04 21:42 ` Jon Harrop
2005-02-04 22:11 ` Christophe TROESTLER
2005-02-05 0:58 ` Jon Harrop
2005-02-05 1:52 ` Shivkumar Chandrasekaran
2005-02-07 18:47 ` Damien Doligez
2005-02-05 5:24 ` Jacques Garrigue
2005-02-04 21:52 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-04 22:27 ` Christophe TROESTLER
2005-02-05 10:00 ` Remi Vanicat
2005-02-06 11:18 ` Christophe TROESTLER
2005-02-04 22:55 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-06 0:02 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-06 0:56 ` Erik de Castro Lopo
2005-02-06 10:03 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-06 1:34 ` Richard Jones
2005-02-06 2:30 ` Erik de Castro Lopo
2005-02-06 9:54 ` Marcin 'Qrczak' Kowalczyk
2005-02-06 10:05 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-05 21:48 ` Michael Walter
2005-02-06 10:22 ` Radu Grigore
2005-02-06 12:16 ` Gerd Stolpmann
2005-02-06 14:59 ` skaller
2005-02-06 22:30 ` Radu Grigore
2005-02-07 3:15 ` Erik de Castro Lopo
2005-02-06 17:28 ` Jon
2005-02-06 22:26 ` Radu Grigore
2005-02-07 2:51 ` skaller
2005-02-07 1:54 ` skaller
2005-02-07 5:34 ` Brian Hurt
2005-02-07 6:16 ` Michael Walter
2005-02-07 14:58 ` Igor Pechtchanski
2005-02-12 15:22 ` Brian Hurt
2005-02-12 16:11 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-12 18:47 ` Brian Hurt
2005-02-12 21:58 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-12 17:06 ` skaller
2005-02-12 22:57 ` Michael Walter
2005-02-13 1:12 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-13 1:51 ` Tony Edgin
2005-02-13 2:12 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-13 10:26 ` Daniel Heck
2005-02-13 18:28 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-13 20:52 ` Michael Walter [this message]
2005-02-13 21:42 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-13 22:51 ` Michael Walter
2005-02-13 23:59 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-14 0:11 ` Michael Walter
2005-02-14 0:42 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-14 1:11 ` Michael Walter
2005-02-14 1:46 ` Michael Vanier
2005-02-14 1:57 ` Michael Walter
2005-02-14 14:19 ` Stefan Monnier
2005-02-14 14:36 ` [Caml-list] " Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-14 1:19 ` [Caml-list] " Michael Walter
2005-02-14 17:29 ` Martin Berger
2005-02-14 18:44 ` skaller
2005-02-14 19:17 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-14 2:22 ` skaller
2005-02-14 8:04 ` Paul Snively
2005-02-14 9:33 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-14 9:39 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-14 2:10 ` skaller
2005-02-13 2:27 ` Brian Hurt
2005-02-13 2:34 ` Michael Walter
2005-02-07 10:57 ` Ville-Pertti Keinonen
2005-02-07 16:58 ` skaller
2005-02-07 17:24 ` Ville-Pertti Keinonen
2005-02-07 17:56 ` Paul Snively
2005-02-07 17:59 ` skaller
2005-02-07 17:30 ` skaller
2005-02-07 13:07 ` Marcin 'Qrczak' Kowalczyk
2005-02-12 15:42 ` Brian Hurt
2005-02-07 17:42 ` Ken Rose
2005-02-07 2:23 ` skaller
2005-02-04 9:29 ` [Caml-list] Estimating the size of the ocaml community Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-04 10:26 ` Andreas Rossberg
2005-02-04 17:54 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-04 15:43 ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-04 19:54 ` Christophe TROESTLER
2005-02-04 20:20 ` Karl Zilles
2005-02-04 22:07 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-04 9:41 ` Richard Jones
2005-02-04 10:03 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-04 16:00 ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-04 17:32 ` sejourne_kevin
2005-02-04 18:46 ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-05 1:49 ` skaller
2005-02-04 8:55 ` Ville-Pertti Keinonen
2005-02-04 9:36 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-04 10:30 ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-04 22:02 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-05 13:14 ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-05 16:37 ` Why can't types and exceptions be nested (was: Re: [Caml-list] Estimating the size of the ocaml community) Richard Jones
2005-02-05 17:04 ` Basile STARYNKEVITCH
2005-02-05 19:26 ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-06 2:56 ` skaller
2005-02-04 21:55 ` [Caml-list] Estimating the size of the ocaml community Basile STARYNKEVITCH
2005-02-03 19:04 ` ronniec95
2005-02-03 20:06 ` skaller
2005-02-03 20:50 ` chris.danx
2005-02-03 21:14 ` Jon Harrop
2005-02-03 21:34 ` chris.danx
2005-02-03 22:07 ` Bardur Arantsson
2005-02-03 21:47 ` Nicolas Cannasse
2005-02-04 3:52 ` skaller
2005-02-04 16:12 ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-05 2:04 ` skaller
2005-02-03 20:35 ` chris.danx
2005-02-03 8:36 ` sejourne_kevin
2005-02-03 8:39 ` Matthieu Brucher
2005-02-03 16:23 ` Olivier Pérès
2005-02-03 10:10 ` Stefano Zacchiroli
2005-02-03 16:44 ` Vincenzo Ciancia
2005-02-02 22:10 ` [Caml-list] " Kenneth Knowles
2005-02-02 22:40 ` Michael Jeffrey Tucker
2005-02-02 22:52 ` Richard Jones
2005-02-02 23:42 ` Nicolas Cannasse
2005-02-03 6:53 ` Evan Martin
2005-02-03 6:57 ` Eric Stokes
2005-02-03 20:53 ` chris.danx
2005-02-03 23:29 ` Sylvain LE GALL
2005-02-03 23:38 ` sejourne_kevin
2005-02-07 8:49 ` Sven Luther
2005-02-07 9:23 ` Johann Spies
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