From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82]) by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63646BBAF for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 04:58:50 +0100 (CET) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ah4BACuBLktKfU4akGdsb2JhbACaMGM/AQEBAQkJDAcTA6ktCoEohAGIUwECAwWEKQSKaA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.47,429,1257116400"; d="scan'208";a="42500508" Received: from ey-out-2122.google.com ([74.125.78.26]) by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 21 Dec 2009 04:58:49 +0100 Received: by ey-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 9so1329459eyd.31 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 19:58:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:reply-to:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=EE3roNv6iseL+SOqxH/1+uJJ7oEk4swN9UfmBD/Errw=; b=vyriqlCMA88EiwF7/gaNZ8ZKp/nbKO6ZxmaycXHeN/MvNRKr/kFwIvPEmN/PK2ZFSh XMX9J0iovgevqDNHuKssVIutQVs+sjYQP3YEI7vfoHmOAESv47bVHdjekt3t8PLASjkr XlOh6S58Fk/sT5KrkHoLcM+rI+gVbQ0REg+bU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=Lp0l1fvexK2zG8KheYKrVLbrB2SrDWW+TrgSjDyK2d6mgRoPrXE5loadmf47veQgAy ts0PXHu+J/MtrDzvFrvCWADiqTeMCaPLbY+GwyNP6SJiC7MfGO9zYamoTCRPt+QMlisN Q342MMfiIRbCpno3aBv5nx2/TXABdTDWKeumg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.93.68 with SMTP id k46mr2474128wef.161.1261367929389; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 19:58:49 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: yminsky@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <200912210430.17246.jon@ffconsultancy.com> References: <794713.82307.qm@web111510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <200912202114.42669.jon@ffconsultancy.com> <1261357694.6545.89.camel@flake.lan.gerd-stolpmann.de> <200912210430.17246.jon@ffconsultancy.com> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 22:58:49 -0500 Message-ID: <891bd3390912201958i7c0be75ereddd9e5c4f645e46@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Re: OCaml is broken From: Yaron Minsky To: Jon Harrop Cc: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d644415cc314047b351b97 X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml:01 yaron:01 minsky:01 yminsky:01 ocaml:01 normalized:01 haskell:01 popping:01 normalized:01 haskell:01 popping:01 20,:98 2009:98 declining:98 declining:98 --0016e6d644415cc314047b351b97 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I find the ponderings on the popularity of OCaml to be of limited utility --- those who pick OCaml based on its popularity are making a terrible mistake. OCaml was a deeply unpopular language in 2005 and remains so today, the variations notwithstanding. There are other good reasons to use the language nonetheless. On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 11:30 PM, Jon Harrop wrote: > Or searches for OCaml on Google: > > http://www.google.com/trends?q=ocaml%2Cclojure%2Cf%23 I'm not sure if OCaml is becoming more or less popular, but I find the evidence for a decline less than convincing. It is true that there is less traffic on this list, but it's hard to know how to interpret this. I haven't gotten the sense that Python is in decline, but traffic on comp.lang.python has also been declining since 2005. Google Trends is also a confusing metric. For example, it suggests that Java, Python and C++ have been declining for years: http://www.google.com/trends?q=java&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0 http://www.google.com/trends?q=C%2B%2B&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0 http://www.google.com/trends?q=Python&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0 My suspicion is that Google Trends gives numbers normalized to the overall search world, and so things that aren't growing fast look smaller as search volume in general grows. Obviously an up-and-coming language like clojure still shows an upswing, as one would expect from an up-and-coming language. The number of OCaml jobs has crashed as well: > > http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/jobs/uk/ocaml.do I thought this was a silly metric when it spiked up, and continue to think it's a silly metric today. There are a tiny number of legitimate ocaml jobs (and the same is true for Haskell, Clojure, Scala, SML, etc.) and the ups-and-down in this tiny sample are not statistically significant. Again: don't pick OCaml because of the large number of OCaml jobs out there. There are very very few, both now and in '05. Reliable metrics on a community like this are hard to come by, but things seem quite vibrant to me. There are always new OCaml startups popping into existence, new libraries being written, and new things coming out of INRIA (for example, the arrival of modules as first-class values, which is expected in OCaml 3.12). From my point of view, there is still no platform out there I would rather be using. y --0016e6d644415cc314047b351b97 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I find the ponderings on the popularity of OCaml= to be of limited utility --- those who pick OCaml based on its popularity = are making a terrible mistake. =A0OCaml was a deeply unpopular language in = 2005 and remains so today, the variations notwithstanding. =A0There are oth= er good reasons to use the language nonetheless.

On Sun, Dec= 20, 2009 at 11:30 PM, Jon Harrop <jon@ffconsultancy.com> wrote:
Or searches for OCaml on Google:

=A0http://www.google.com/trends?q=3Docaml%2Cclojure%2Cf%23<= /blockquote>

I'm not sure if OCaml is becoming more = or less popular, but I find the evidence for a decline less than convincing= . =A0It is true that there is less traffic on this list, but it's hard = to know how to interpret this. =A0I haven't gotten the sense that Pytho= n is in decline, but traffic on comp.lang.python has also been declining si= nce 2005.

Google Trends is also a confusing metric. =A0For exampl= e, it suggests that Java, Python and C++ have been declining for years:

http://www.google.com/t= rends?q=3Djava&ctab=3D0&geo=3Dall&date=3Dall&sort=3D0
http://www.google.com/trends?q=3DPython&c= tab=3D0&geo=3Dall&date=3Dall&sort=3D0

My suspicion is that Google Trends gives numbers normal= ized to the overall search world, and so things that aren't growing fas= t look smaller as search volume in general grows. =A0Obviously an up-and-co= ming language like clojure still shows an upswing, as one would expect from= an up-and-coming language.

The number of OCaml jobs has crashed as well:

=A0http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/jobs/uk/ocaml.do
I thought this was a silly metric when it spiked up, and contin= ue to think it's a silly metric today. =A0There are a tiny number of le= gitimate ocaml jobs (and the same is true for Haskell, Clojure, Scala, SML,= etc.) and the ups-and-down in this tiny sample are not statistically signi= ficant. =A0Again: don't pick OCaml because of the large number of OCaml= jobs out there. =A0There are very very few, both now and in '05.

Reliable metrics on a community like this are hard to c= ome by, but things seem quite vibrant to me. =A0There are always new OCaml = startups popping into existence, new libraries being written, and new thing= s coming out of INRIA (for example, the arrival of modules as first-class v= alues, which is expected in OCaml 3.12). =A0From my point of view, there is= still no platform out there I would rather be using.

y
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