RE: Receptive Tool Vendors (was: Re: [Caml-list] Jihad)

RE: Receptive Tool Vendors (was: Re: [Caml-list] Jihad)

[Dave Berry]

Perhaps the phrase ", at least in the USA", would be more helpful -- it
would indicate that you're only discussing areas you know about, and not
attempting to generalise.


-----Original Message-----
From: David Fox [mailto:dsfox@cogsci.ucsd.edu]
Sent: 13 November 2001 15:56
To: Eric Newhuis
Cc: Caml
Subject: Re: Receptive Tool Vendors (was: Re: [Caml-list] Jihad)


"Eric Newhuis" <enew@bigfoot.com> writes:

> > Have you found tool vendors outside of the USA more receptive /
> > perceptive?
> 
> Not directly.  However I have, on occasion, encountered people from
the UK
> who know ML and have preached its virtues.  I only assumed that there
must
> have been some form of support outside the classrooms and research
labs.
> 
> Am I wrong?  What is the current state of functional programming
language
> acceptance?

I would say it is low world wide.  As a matter of fact, many of the
engineers in the U.S. who are unaware of functional programming are
foreigners!  I'm being facetious, but I think that injecting
nationality into this discussion is unhelpful and annoying.
-- 
David Fox
dsfox@cogsci.ucsd.edu
http://www.foxthompson.net/dsf/
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Re: Receptive Tool Vendors (was: Re: [Caml-list] Jihad)

[Rafael 'Dido' Sevilla]

On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 12:16:27PM -0500, Jeff Henrikson wrote:
> There should be a little map with dots where the caml list subscribers are, then we all know where to live, right Neelk?  ;-)  Hey,
> there could be a little voulentary city/state/province/country box on the subscribe page that could feed a program to generate
> pinpricks by getting coordinates from mapquest or somesuch.

It seems I'm the only Objective Caml programmer in the Philippines. :(

-- 
Rafael R. Sevilla <sevillar@team.ph.inter.net>   +63(2)   8177746 ext. 8311
Programmer, Inter.Net Philippines                +63(917) 4458925
http://dido.engr.internet.org.ph/                OpenPGP Key ID: 0x5CDA17D8
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Re: Receptive Tool Vendors (was: Re: [Caml-list] Jihad)

[David Fox]

"Eric Newhuis" <enew@bigfoot.com> writes:

> > I'm being facetious, but I think that injecting nationality into this
> discussion is unhelpful and annoying.
> 
> I only have experience in the USA.  I think you may have read too much into
> what I wrote.

Yes, I suppose so.
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Re: Receptive Tool Vendors (was: Re: [Caml-list] Jihad)

[Sven]

On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 12:16:27PM -0500, Jeff Henrikson wrote:
> > Locale matters somewhat, I'd think. I say this because I live in
> > Boston, and the MIT/Lisp connection is somewhat felt even now.
> > Mostly, in the sense that startups are able to get ahold of Lisp
> > hackers who gripe about how defective Java is. :/ Presumably the
> > same is true in and around Stanford. I guess the Lelisp effort
> > morphed into Caml, so perhaps the situation is better in France?
> 
> There should be a little map with dots where the caml list subscribers are, then we all know where to live, right Neelk?  ;-)  Hey,
> there could be a little voulentary city/state/province/country box on the subscribe page that could feed a program to generate
> pinpricks by getting coordinates from mapquest or somesuch.

Something like the debian developper map at :

http://www.debian.org/devel/developers.loc ?

Friendly,

Sven Luther
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Re: Receptive Tool Vendors (was: Re: [Caml-list] Jihad)

[Eric Newhuis]

> I'm being facetious, but I think that injecting nationality into this
discussion is unhelpful and annoying.

I only have experience in the USA.  I think you may have read too much into
what I wrote.

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RE: Receptive Tool Vendors (was: Re: [Caml-list] Jihad)

[Jeff Henrikson]

> Locale matters somewhat, I'd think. I say this because I live in
> Boston, and the MIT/Lisp connection is somewhat felt even now.
> Mostly, in the sense that startups are able to get ahold of Lisp
> hackers who gripe about how defective Java is. :/ Presumably the
> same is true in and around Stanford. I guess the Lelisp effort
> morphed into Caml, so perhaps the situation is better in France?

There should be a little map with dots where the caml list subscribers are, then we all know where to live, right Neelk?  ;-)  Hey,
there could be a little voulentary city/state/province/country box on the subscribe page that could feed a program to generate
pinpricks by getting coordinates from mapquest or somesuch.


Jeff
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Re: Receptive Tool Vendors (was: Re: [Caml-list] Jihad)

[Brian Rogoff]

On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Krishnaswami, Neel wrote:
> David Fox [mailto:dsfox@cogsci.ucsd.edu] wrote:
> > "Eric Newhuis" <enew@bigfoot.com> writes:
> > > 
> > > Am I wrong?  What is the current state of functional 
> > > programming language acceptance?
> > 
> > I would say it is low world wide.  As a matter of fact, many of the
> > engineers in the U.S. who are unaware of functional programming are
> > foreigners!  I'm being facetious, but I think that injecting
> > nationality into this discussion is unhelpful and annoying.
> 
> Locale matters somewhat, I'd think. I say this because I live in
> Boston, and the MIT/Lisp connection is somewhat felt even now. 

It's good that some things don't change much.

> Mostly, in the sense that startups are able to get ahold of Lisp
> hackers who gripe about how defective Java is. :/ Presumably the 
> same is true in and around Stanford. 

Nope. When I left Snodfart a few classes were going from C++ to Java
but there were also transitions to C++. Realize that many (most?) hackers
don't come from CS departments but from engineering departments. Most 
programmers I meet have never heard of OCaml before, though almost all of
them have heard about it after :-).

> I guess the Lelisp effort  morphed into Caml, 

I think there's overlap, but I think this description is inaccurate. Try
this 

http://www.pps.jussieu.fr/~cousinea/Caml/caml_history.html 

> so perhaps the situation is better in France?

No doubt there are more people exposed to Caml there. 

-- Brian
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Re: Receptive Tool Vendors (was: Re: [Caml-list] Jihad)

[Krishnaswami, Neel]

David Fox [mailto:dsfox@cogsci.ucsd.edu] wrote:
> "Eric Newhuis" <enew@bigfoot.com> writes:
> > 
> > Am I wrong?  What is the current state of functional 
> > programming language acceptance?
> 
> I would say it is low world wide.  As a matter of fact, many of the
> engineers in the U.S. who are unaware of functional programming are
> foreigners!  I'm being facetious, but I think that injecting
> nationality into this discussion is unhelpful and annoying.

Locale matters somewhat, I'd think. I say this because I live in
Boston, and the MIT/Lisp connection is somewhat felt even now. 
Mostly, in the sense that startups are able to get ahold of Lisp
hackers who gripe about how defective Java is. :/ Presumably the 
same is true in and around Stanford. I guess the Lelisp effort 
morphed into Caml, so perhaps the situation is better in France?
 
Incidentally, does anyone have a pointer to how extensional 
polymorphism enables typesafe marshalling? I have to confess
that I can't figure that out -- how would I use it to go about 
writing a safe equivalent of Lisp's READ function? 

--
Neel Krishnaswami
neelk@cswcasa.com
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Re: Receptive Tool Vendors (was: Re: [Caml-list] Jihad)

[David Fox]

"Eric Newhuis" <enew@bigfoot.com> writes:

> > Have you found tool vendors outside of the USA more receptive /
> > perceptive?
> 
> Not directly.  However I have, on occasion, encountered people from the UK
> who know ML and have preached its virtues.  I only assumed that there must
> have been some form of support outside the classrooms and research labs.
> 
> Am I wrong?  What is the current state of functional programming language
> acceptance?

I would say it is low world wide.  As a matter of fact, many of the
engineers in the U.S. who are unaware of functional programming are
foreigners!  I'm being facetious, but I think that injecting
nationality into this discussion is unhelpful and annoying.
-- 
David Fox
dsfox@cogsci.ucsd.edu
http://www.foxthompson.net/dsf/
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Receptive Tool Vendors (was: Re: [Caml-list] Jihad)

[Eric Newhuis]

> Have you found tool vendors outside of the USA more receptive /
> perceptive?

Not directly.  However I have, on occasion, encountered people from the UK
who know ML and have preached its virtues.  I only assumed that there must
have been some form of support outside the classrooms and research labs.

Am I wrong?  What is the current state of functional programming language
acceptance?

I used to preach Lisp for no apparent reason.  I know that Lisp has enjoyed
some commercial success, perhaps for those who have refused to relinquish
who now find themselves solving commercial problems.

After learning about ML and Caml I doubt that I will ever preach Lisp again.
I wouldn't have known any better if I hadn't collected years of personal
observations on the (potential) safety provided by languages like C++ and
Caml.

Caml provides a much stronger safety of primitives than C++.  I believe
higher-level safety is also important:  Avoid Primitive Obsession and
construct useful classes that encapsulate basic domain concepts.  This is a
good form of safety that is even possible in weakly typed languages.

Why am I venturing here in response to your question?  Well I think there
are a lot of good techniques that programmers consistently ignore because
they are creatures of habit.  So we don't have a lot of developers screaming
for better type safety here in the USA.  And I'll bet this is true worldwide
since USA tool vendors have an influence on the world, no?

I recall reading "After the Gold Rush" in which the author urges us to move
toward more professional software engineering practices.  I firmly believe
that languages like Caml can play a role in that.

It is precisely the X-behavior of weakly typed languages that leads one to
believe that programming is still more of a "black art" or a .  I say those
developers are simply too lazy or too lame to undertake the higher task that
is deserving of the title of "Professional Engineer".  (This is what I was
referring to in my first email about the "true professional".)

Interviewer:  "Yes Mr. NASA engineer, just how did you get that robot to
land on Mars and take pictures?"
NASA Engineer:  "Oh that?  We don't know.  We have a number of magicians
working for us and they refuse to reveal their secrets."

Hogwash!

True; no language is a silver bullet.  We need a combination of fail-safe
mechanisms, good engineering practices, and technical management and process
optimization.  (I must sound like an SEI pundit.)

I think Caml can be one piece of a much larger puzzle.  Tool vendors who
sell this higher cause and demonstrate how it can save money by producing
more intentionally error-free software will, perhaps, have an edge over the
competition.

But the sales pitch needs to also educate software developers in best
engineering practices.  And I don't necessarily mean UML diagrams, but more
practical things like SOME of those practices suggested by the Extreme
Programming crowd, the Refactoring book, NASA's SEL, and IBM's software
lifecycle management research.

Failure to instruct in all these areas will diminish the understanding that
a language like Ocaml is a good thing.

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