From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82]) by walapai.inria.fr (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id p2V8K2JM031174 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 10:20:02 +0200 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AjYDAOs4lE1KfVK0kGdsb2JhbACERpNVMoYGAYZzCBQBAQEBCQkNBxQEIYh5mnqKGjyCI4RYL4hcAQEDBYRvdwSBe4sWhwSCDTo X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.63,274,1299452400"; d="scan'208";a="104108298" Received: from mail-wy0-f180.google.com ([74.125.82.180]) by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-SHA; 31 Mar 2011 10:19:57 +0200 Received: by wyj26 with SMTP id 26so2692954wyj.39 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 01:19:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=VXG543w0zf1FOLgNUMy3X2sx4Vs6ndsrZPOYc/wSvFw=; b=qWxVzGRdAoDmEuNUM2Ue3C/DsHvUzTD0x2rDkQTfzwoXYDtWh8Eb0mwEO/oQF4gq5x grQ3Uavj5ssQbDzfscwVjz0KEHQSND9ebgLlgyf3Pc/R26lQV/4pSdrfLQy+etg+3dbS 6Cpexllv2KN7QN9Ejbg6z0xkwXJEtsU4lpWi0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=cJvMl+4SNE5JTTbjlxIXE6BbU37rNV0GWwVz+x8HyaWbYq58WZh/zS1n8mlERFHBgP ZyhSnAlKNVCNtYjs1+ksnddj9YOQAgskSvHRKzbj2yduM0njhoHIbnlypgnD5bI2cPyD QfNXICslUOcAzww5TdaYtnqvTpOTiZ9RojSIQ= Received: by 10.216.239.73 with SMTP id b51mr1812740wer.44.1301559597092; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 01:19:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.74.5 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 01:19:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <25BB4625-7DB0-47E2-A378-5F121EB41EB8@gmail.com> References: <4D9328A0.3020504@wp.pl> <25BB4625-7DB0-47E2-A378-5F121EB41EB8@gmail.com> From: Pierre-Alexandre Voye Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 10:19:37 +0200 Message-ID: To: caml-list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4e43cef770523e049fc2f570 Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Re: Arithmetic operations --e0cb4e43cef770523e049fc2f570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's funny, because I'm studying why language succeed or not, for my M1 dissertation (M1 Management), and it's one of the big factor, among others, of sucess. Ocaml is highly expressive, so you could turn around, but it's a big problem. I think it would be important and interesting to create a little organization which discuss bout a standard lib and would begin making a synthesis of all these "standard" library. It would be very interesting too, to a lot of company which could take advantage of the "0 debug" advantages of caml : This fact imply a lot of cut in software building costs which would be a great advantage for company who would offer service based on OCaml. OCaml is now mature, it could be considered out of the laboratory, it thus become able to cross the chasm : http://robrozicki.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/crossing_the_chasm1.png But making a good compiler with a minimal API isn't sufficient. So, in summary : - OCaml is ready to cross the chasm, it was too early 10 years ago - Ocaml need a huge __standard__ API. And there a lot of work to unify about this - Ocaml need a standard lib package management, and some good ones exist for Ocaml 2011/3/31 Christophe Papazian > Selling cars without tires ! > > This is a huge problem of the ocaml community. Who wants a minimal library > ? > What makes other languages popular ? There are huge API. > For Ocaml, the main web site is just for the compiler, the ocaml hump is > refreshed > each month with few new things. So I need to use as well godi (another web > site), > batteries (still in progress, another web site), janestreet (another > solution, another > web site). Everybody is making is own api, which is not very interesting > for the end user. > > When I use python or latex, eveything is centralized, I pick the packages= I > need, and all is done. > Ocaml situation would be understandable if this was something new, but > after 15 years, it's just > the french way : "We have good ideas, but we don't care how to sell them". > And this must be a reason why ocaml community is still small. > > Christophe > > > > > > Le 30 mars 11 =C3=A0 14:57, Dawid Toton a =C3=A9crit : > > > >> It would be so good if some missing operations on numbers could be >>> added to the standard set : (...) >>> The lack of those functions gives a feeling of immaturity of the >>> language. >>> Is it possible in some near futur release to add them ? >>> >> This is a matter of libraries, not the language. The standard library >> coming with raw ocaml distribution is intended to be lightweight and >> minimal. It is a library like core[1] or batteries[2] that should >> provide the "standard set" of operations. You can consider filling a >> feature request ticket. >> >> Dawid >> >> [1] http://ocaml.janestreet.com/?q=3Dnode/13 >> [2] http://batteries.forge.ocamlcore.org/ >> >> -- >> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: >> https://sympa-roc.inria.fr/wws/info/caml-list >> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners >> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >> >> > > > -- > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > https://sympa-roc.inria.fr/wws/info/caml-list > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > > --=20 --------------------- Isaac Project - http://www.lisaac.org/ --e0cb4e43cef770523e049fc2f570 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's funny, because I'm studying why language succeed or not, for m= y M1 dissertation (M1 Management), and it's one of the big factor, amon= g others, of sucess.
Ocaml is highly expressive, so you could turn aroun= d, but it's a big problem.

I think it would be important and interesting to create a little organi= zation which discuss bout a standard lib and would begin making a synthesis= of all these "standard" library.

It would be very interes= ting too, to=C2=A0 a lot of company which could take advantage of the "= ;0 debug" advantages of caml : This fact imply a lot of cut in softwar= e building costs which would be a great advantage for company who would off= er service based on OCaml.

OCaml is now mature, it could be considered out of the laboratory, it t= hus become able to cross the chasm :
http://rob= rozicki.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/crossing_the_chasm1.png

But making a good compiler with a minimal API isn't sufficient.
=
So, in summary :
- OCaml is ready to cross the chasm, it was too ear= ly 10 years ago
- Ocaml need a huge __standard__ API. And there a lot of= work to unify about this
- Ocaml need a standard lib package management, and some good ones exist fo= r Ocaml



2011/3/31 Christophe Papazian <christophe.papazian@gmail.com>
Selling cars without tires !

This is a huge problem of the ocaml community. Who wants a minimal library = ?
What makes other languages popular ? There are huge API.
For Ocaml, the main web site is just for the compiler, the ocaml hump is re= freshed
each month with few new things. So I need to use as well godi (another web = site),
batteries (still in progress, another web site), janestreet (another soluti= on, another
web site). Everybody is making is own api, which is not very interesting fo= r the end user.

When I use python or latex, eveything is centralized, I pick the packages I= need, and all is done.
Ocaml situation would be understandable if this was something new, but afte= r 15 years, it's just
the french way : "We have good ideas, but we don't care how to sel= l them".
And this must be a reason why ocaml community is still small.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Christophe





Le 30 mars 11 =C3=A0 14:57, Dawid Toton a =C3=A9crit :
=


It would be so good if some missing operations on numbers could be
added to the standard set : (...)
The lack of those functions gives a feeling of immaturity of the
language.
Is it possible in some near futur release to add them ?
This is a matter of libraries, not the language. The standard library
coming with raw ocaml distribution is intended to be lightweight and
minimal. It is a library like core[1] or batteries[2] that should
provide the "standard set" of operations. You can consider fillin= g a
feature request ticket.

Dawid

[1] = http://ocaml.janestreet.com/?q=3Dnode/13
[2] htt= p://batteries.forge.ocamlcore.org/

--
Caml-list mailing list. =C2=A0Subscription management and archives:
https://sympa-roc.inria.fr/wws/info/caml-list
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs




--
Caml-list mailing list. =C2=A0Subscription management and archives:
https://sympa-roc.inria.fr/wws/info/caml-list
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs




--
-----------= ----------
Isaac Project - http://www.lisaac.org/
--e0cb4e43cef770523e049fc2f570--