From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Original-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Delivered-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104]) by sympa.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 776F47FE36 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 12:45:02 +0200 (CEST) IronPort-PHdr: 9a23:Dq97xxYYK45OF21d9H22NIf/LSx+4OfEezUN459isYplN5qZpci9bnLW6fgltlLVR4KTs6sC0LuO9fm/EjdZqb+681k6OKRWUBEEjchE1ycBO+WiTXPBEfjxciYhF95DXlI2t1uyMExSBdqsLwaK+i760zceF13FOBZvIaytQ8iJ3pzxjr/5oMSbSj4LrQL1Wal1IhSyoFeZnegtqqwmFJwMzADUqGBDYeVcyDAgD1uSmxHh+pX4p8Y7oGwD884mou1JUqz2YuxsTrVbBTg7dWA86sTtvB/KZQSK73oYFG4Rl0wbLRLC6UTTWJb1+g7zuup0xiCCMMH6XPhgUDKj649xRRTviSNBMCQ2pjKEwvdshb5W9Ury7yd0xJTZNdmY Authentication-Results: mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; spf=None smtp.pra=anil@recoil.org; spf=None smtp.mailfrom=anil@recoil.org; spf=None smtp.helo=postmaster@bark.recoil.org Received-SPF: None (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of anil@recoil.org) identity=pra; client-ip=5.153.225.51; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="anil@recoil.org"; x-sender="anil@recoil.org"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: None (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of anil@recoil.org) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=5.153.225.51; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="anil@recoil.org"; x-sender="anil@recoil.org"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: None (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of postmaster@bark.recoil.org) identity=helo; client-ip=5.153.225.51; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="anil@recoil.org"; x-sender="postmaster@bark.recoil.org"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0BXBQDJ93RX/zPhmQVagz5WfagVhR2ODCKFdQIIgTE8EAEBAQEBAQEBZCeCMoIaAQEBAwEjHQMBKgsBAQMLCxgCAgkdAgIhJBIGExICiAIDDwwBCbFoZ4MIgTsHAocnAwqEHAEBAQEGAQEBAQEBAQEBFQEIgQGHHoFTgQOCQ4FZJGOCHiuCL4ZVDJF7NIYIhWxCggtmgQQXN4cTI4U8iBOHcjUfg3FtiASBRAEBAQ X-IPAS-Result: A0BXBQDJ93RX/zPhmQVagz5WfagVhR2ODCKFdQIIgTE8EAEBAQEBAQEBZCeCMoIaAQEBAwEjHQMBKgsBAQMLCxgCAgkdAgIhJBIGExICiAIDDwwBCbFoZ4MIgTsHAocnAwqEHAEBAQEGAQEBAQEBAQEBFQEIgQGHHoFTgQOCQ4FZJGOCHiuCL4ZVDJF7NIYIhWxCggtmgQQXN4cTI4U8iBOHcjUfg3FtiASBRAEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,551,1459807200"; d="scan'208";a="183307111" Received: from bark.recoil.org ([5.153.225.51]) by mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 30 Jun 2016 12:45:01 +0200 Received: from bark.recoil.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bark.recoil.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 06b989fa; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 11:44:59 +0100 (BST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=recoil.org; h=content-type :mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s= selector1; bh=RiSD7h+JInSMBS1JHyvIRxsfI4s=; b=aRCRGtLIdMLB2xiEdJ eibZxpID+aynA/OPRjm8d+3Q4y4trAZX27MkfwkWLIAgv2jf1okfbY2EksXUceYV irnygEIkIc583ATlQuDe/FpJgAKqeuzmIJW+LDFv5AKK/+1zPJ9Jcy8cnDO9eB7S u6ySCEOF/uKupjlU2yrpUY/h8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=recoil.org; h=content-type :mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; q=dns; s= selector1; b=d/66GmyfPQQXd2r8STt1X+kzfNVig/cTs0uP0E+jB1VolKuyOsF J0f6LVY489Nvp7Ekn4b77DZTIAiqV+ZBxtiCsHtbcuqr667AvmEkmcAonhCMhUcu 9I88PANoQStAaZ/Kl7j8SWWc4ytTgUQSddm3M1hb9T/0PT7C5nDP6Kbk= Received: from [172.16.10.92] (mail.astons-coaches.co.uk [194.72.166.2]) by bark.recoil.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 0f06da3a TLS version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 11:44:59 +0100 (BST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Anil Madhavapeddy In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 11:46:06 +0100 Cc: "caml-list@inria.fr" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Kakadu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Subject: Re: [Caml-list] how to encourage adoption of OCaml? Yes, we're working on an updated version of RWO. No firm ETA yet, but expec= t an online refresh first. regards, Anil > On 30 Jun 2016, at 11:16, Kakadu wrote: >=20 > Folks, is second ppx-based edition of RWO being considered by original au= thors? >=20 > Kakadu >=20 > On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Dean Thompson > wrote: >> A few years ago, with over 30 years of programming experience including = 15 years primarily in Java, I decided I needed a new =E2=80=9Chome=E2=80=9D= programming language. I then spent a frustrating few years studying what= =E2=80=99s out there. I have felt like a man without a country. I developed= fairly serious crushes on Scala and then on Haskell, but after a few serio= us dates with them I moved on. I have read deeply about many, many more. >>=20 >> I have converged on OCaml. It is a beautiful language and a highly pract= ical functional language. Although infrastructure such as compilers, editor= /IDE support, and libraries are on the minimal side, the essentials are all= there and are lovingly maintained. Although the community is small, it is = smart, friendly, and engaged. Some amazing technology is available or work-= in-progress (such as js_of_ocaml and Mirage). >>=20 >> But this feels like a fragile new home unless we can build a bigger comm= unity! For one thing, if our community shrinks much, it may no longer be vi= able. Also, while I love 1,000 packages on opam, I want 100,000! >>=20 >> As a newcomer to the community, I have to say that there are daunting ba= rriers to a potential new user considering OCaml for a new project. If you = like starting on a new programming language with a book, as I do, you likel= y start with Real World OCaml. That book is very inspiring! But then when y= ou try to move from RWO to, well, using OCaml in the real world, you discov= er that there is no consensus on Core as a standard library, and that Camlp= 4 is deprecated. >>=20 >> It appears to me that if, instead, you come to OCaml as a potential new = user through ocaml.org, there are other barriers. It is hard for me to judg= e because I came through RWO, but it appears to me that the lack of consens= us on standard library comes up pretty quickly. I=E2=80=99m more of a langu= age manual guy than a tutorial guy, so I quickly notice that, although the = OCaml language manual is well written, has a lovely introductory flow, and = has great examples, it fairly quickly gets into terse description of langua= ge constructs while providing limited help to a beginner in developing intu= ition for the language as a whole and how best to use it. >>=20 >> This is one man=E2=80=99s experience and one man=E2=80=99s opinions. Do = others on this list feel the ramp to OCaml adoption is smoother than my imp= ression suggests? Who here is excited about making OCaml approachable to ne= wcomers? Where is the main ongoing work on this? Who are the main leaders f= rom this perspective? >>=20 >> Dean >> -------- >> Dean Thompson >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/deansthompson/ >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: >> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list >> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners >> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >=20 > --=20 > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs