From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Original-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Delivered-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.83]) by sympa.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 244917EE51 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2013 19:32:03 +0200 (CEST) Received-SPF: None (mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of amc79@cam.ac.uk) identity=pra; client-ip=131.111.8.141; receiver=mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="amc79@cam.ac.uk"; x-sender="amc79@cam.ac.uk"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: None (mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of amc79@cam.ac.uk) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=131.111.8.141; receiver=mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="amc79@cam.ac.uk"; x-sender="amc79@cam.ac.uk"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: None (mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of postmaster@ppsw-41.csi.cam.ac.uk) identity=helo; client-ip=131.111.8.141; receiver=mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="amc79@cam.ac.uk"; x-sender="postmaster@ppsw-41.csi.cam.ac.uk"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AmoDAH1mXFGDbwiNf2dsb2JhbABDgz2uL5IWgQwWDgEBCQ0KCBQogh8BAQQBHR0uBgsFCwsOCg0hISQSBhMJCQKHbgMJBgy2YgMKTIkPjEeCHw0mB4JfYQOVC4J/ilEDiCQ X-IPAS-Result: AmoDAH1mXFGDbwiNf2dsb2JhbABDgz2uL5IWgQwWDgEBCQ0KCBQogh8BAQQBHR0uBgsFCwsOCg0hISQSBhMJCQKHbgMJBgy2YgMKTIkPjEeCHw0mB4JfYQOVC4J/ilEDiCQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.87,402,1363129200"; d="scan'208";a="11645728" Received: from ppsw-41.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.141]) by mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 03 Apr 2013 19:32:02 +0200 X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-SpamDetails: not scanned X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.ucs.cam.ac.uk/email/scanner/ Received: from dhcp-128-232-141-236.eduroam.csx.cam.ac.uk ([128.232.141.236]:49476) by ppsw-41.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.156]:587) with esmtpsa (PLAIN:amc79) (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) id 1UNRXV-0007uz-SS (Exim 4.72) (return-path ); Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:32:01 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.3 \(1503\)) From: Amir Chaudhry In-Reply-To: <1365008078.10138.3@samsung> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:32:08 +0100 Cc: Malcolm Matalka , Anil Madhavapeddy , caml-list@inria.fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1365008078.10138.3@samsung> To: Gerd Stolpmann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1503) Subject: Re: [Caml-list] OUD2013 part of CUFP? On 3 Apr 2013, at 17:54, Gerd Stolpmann wrote: > Am 03.04.2013 18:39:17 schrieb(en) Malcolm Matalka: >> OUD was part of CUFP last year, which is the Commercial part of ICFP. I >> did not attend ICFP but just CUFP, and didn't find OUD or CUFP too >> academic. Did you? >=20 > Can't tell about last year, but I visited both CUFP and OUD twice (indepe= ndently), and it was ok (well, I gave talks on OUD). But this is not my poi= nt - I'm more worried about the audience the event attracts, and also about= the character in total. I mean it's a difference whether you have an event= of its own (even if small) or if it is part of a larger conference, where = you certainly also have visitors just seeking entertainment for a bridge da= y. The audience that attends depends on how the event is marketed. That inclu= des people on this list spreading the word to other commercial users of FP,= irrespective of where the event is held. Apart from a comment about acade= mic ritual, you haven't clarified what the problem really is. In my view, = if the events are described properly and word is spread widely, then anyone= who shows up *is* the intended audience. I personally don't know anyone (= academic or otherwise) who'd spend a bridge day by going to events they're = not interested in (as opposed to, say, doing some tourist stuff). amir > You know I'm one of the guys who are always worried if the most convenien= t path is taken. >=20 > Gerd >=20 >> /M >> Gerd Stolpmann writes: >> > Sorry Anil, >> > >> > I did meant to criticize people who put a lot of work into organizing >> > events. On the contrary, this is highly welcome. >> > >> > My point is rather that you get a certain audience when an event is >> > organized as an addendum to a large academic conference. You don't get >> > the average programmer, but people with a strong academic background. >> > Or more direct: OUD is then just a side program for people who attend >> > ICFP anyway. >> > >> > Am 03.04.2013 15:41:47 schrieb(en) Anil Madhavapeddy: >> >> On 3 Apr 2013, at 06:10, Gerd Stolpmann >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > Am 03.04.2013 13:22:07 schrieb(en) Anil Madhavapeddy: >> >> >> On 3 Apr 2013, at 01:24, Malcolm Matalka >> >> wrote: >> >> >> > Last year, OUD was part of CUFP and it worked great. I'm >> >> wondering if >> >> >> > it's the same this year? >> >> >> > >> >> >> Yes, it is part of ICFP 2013 (in Boston this year), and is being >> >> chaired by Michel Mauny this year. The Call for Proposals hasn't >> >> gone yet out. >> >> > >> >> > Too sad. OCaml not leaving the Cathedral. I liked the idea of the >> >> first couple of OUD events of keeping some distance to academic >> >> rituals. >> >> >> >> Nothing stops you from organising your own group, inviting people, >> >> reserving a building, sorting out registration, invoicing sponsors, >> >> organising local facilities and lunch, recording the talks, and >> >> uploading them online. ICFP's "rituals" take care of all of that for >> >> us (Sylvain did a big job before). >> > >> > This is not meant with "rituals". The ritual is to visit ICFP every >> > year. The ritual is to publish a paper every year and to bore the >> > audience, as it happens often enough. This is acceptable as being part >> > of science, but I just have some doubts whether this is the right >> > environment for a users' meeting, especially if you also want to >> > address users outside universities and research institutes. >> > >> >> Your cathedral analogy also doesn't make any sense to me. I like >> >> attending a few days in one go where I can interact with OCaml, ML, >> >> Haskell, Scheme, Erlang, and F# users at the same time, see talks >> >> from industrial users at CUFP, and enjoy hearing the excitement and >> >> wails of the emerging new languages being developed by the community. >> > >> > As an "industrial" user I am very interested into spreading out the >> > word to the masses. We have difficulties finding programmers, which is >> > no wonder if nobody (on the street) has ever heard of the language. >> > What we need are not further talks at scientific conferences, but at >> > events attended by more average people. That could e.g. be open source >> > conferences, hacker events, etc. >> > >> > I put "industrial" in quotes because there isn't an industry yet. The >> > companies using OCaml are doing this for very individual reasons, and >> > there is not much cooperation (so far I can see that). >> > >> > As you mention CUFP, this is a different type of thing. It's a >> > collection of success stories to encourage companies (and more >> > something for CTOs and chief architects). >> > >> >> The rotating locations also enables worldwide users to attend, >> >> instead of just European ones. The ICFP/CUFP at Japan a few years >> >> ago represented a big jump in attendance from the Asian community. >> >> ICFP moves across Europe, Asia and the USA, which is difficult to >> >> arrange with a single user group. >> > >> > Don't get me wrong, but a "travelling" conference has also many cons. >> > E.g. in general it is harder to plan the attendance (reserving time, >> > planning the costs, etc.), especially if the location is not at a >> > traffic hub. >> > >> >> Having said that, having more local meetups is a very positive thing. >> >> Ashish and Christophe have been tracking them here: >> >> http://ocaml.org/meetings.html >> >> Do get involved and set up your own. >> > >> > Thanks for the suggestion, but I think I'm really doing enough for the >> > success of OCaml. >> > >> > Gerd >> > >> >> -anil >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: >> >> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list >> >> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners >> >> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >> >> >> -- >> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: >> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list >> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners >> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Gerd Stolpmann, Darmstadt, Germany gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de > Creator of GODI and camlcity.org. > Contact details: http://www.camlcity.org/contact.html > Company homepage: http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de > ------------------------------------------------------------ > --=20 > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs