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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=janestreet.com; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6dxgycydoNbpxtdxhNBIyeA3dLdgSomDXX9iyqrrOZ4=; b=xhbpgIPguQHPZrcbHDiDixm++4vWhQXlqUkJCz9uJ/yqYGewNsvmPO98MLrNHZXoSN JtYCRLbXlfib1DKJb00UOBA8Ic74OGVGwJbaOxw7GMwC5AD3Q0ksSlIuGIya2eq3LQAC INgiYC9lT/DgqzO/owCQqSK0Z9idHGrVYztvo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6dxgycydoNbpxtdxhNBIyeA3dLdgSomDXX9iyqrrOZ4=; b=dLvnGpepsuPXwTPmWOlOIBFWnWTa7f0ZVyJK4SKvPIdvcWg1kdbCNnOth7L4UFdPq5 HMikkB7gwUrzwztlRTbmVv9aQ1HT4WS6tF8O8CRiiaikE0sip0AZoNpTeMb3noo8g3n9 aLvx+obG18IIp+q5Ueby2D5LepTeVV2g43PDVQrH6d2TOEpUKt3uwP2lBPrCpDU5uxsN 5mBG/9sn4kYKBrtWFb/LXtJlhr5SulitFdTc7G+8h7VvQoNrC3Kysp7dp0w8Rj1A7Wsr NlLy8xXagfdXmn30evKIiGWfzfiHE7PSxdtE5JzfUi5UHouUdh/2wD8eOwsKlkq5m0CZ UOAg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tLp0Tu2cChFW8D1+/cgoHxBJNB9F2Moh5+RulND59IhNvCY0KUDv8o+DGKiev8F/WDNyuqZLX1N68iMiOFPsN8XDvGa2voljSYe/zTaizJZr+wNipPeoVOwDsia+SJcqMFYQYwePAnXMQaNyWogRbPRi0iP7edrI22C5JM= X-Received: by 10.13.254.130 with SMTP id o124mr9239267ywf.30.1468102753862; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 15:19:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.13.254.130 with SMTP id o124mr9239255ywf.30.1468102753643; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 15:19:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.52.200 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Jul 2016 15:19:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20160704144512.GB2458@Razor> <20160708214604.GB1723@tiger> <1468019499.25014.24.camel@e130.lan.sumadev.de> From:Yaron Minsky Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 15:19:12 -0700 Message-ID: To:Markus Mottl Cc:Gerd Stolpmann , Robert Muller , SP , Gabriel Scherer , Dean Thompson , "caml-list@inria.fr" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c06c36e202cd605373b4fd7 X-JS-Processed-by: mailcore Subject: Re: [Caml-list] how to encourage adoption of OCaml? --94eb2c06c36e202cd605373b4fd7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I would take that study with a rather large grain of salt. The validity of such studies depends enormously on the details of how the data was gathered, and without digging into those details, I'm not sure it's much more than noise, especially because the thing being measured (functional programming jobs in industry) is quite small, and not a major part of the survey. I don't know that one should trust this any more than one does the TIOBE survey of programming language popularity. My own experience points in the opposite direction of the data listed in the study. It seems pretty clear from our experience in the hiring market that people with OCaml in their background are in high demand, and that the places that do hire people to program in OCaml itself need to pay good money to be competitive. I know Jane Street pays quite well, and I suspect that Bloomberg and Facebook are also compensating their OCaml-wielding employees in a competitive fashion as well. Also, from what I know from the banks that hire FP types (a lot of it in Haskell), the compensation their is pretty solid as well. y On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 6:37 PM, Markus Mottl wrote: > On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Gerd Stolpmann > wrote: > > That OCaml is not resume-friendly is a myth that still spreads in the > > academic world. Actually, it is hard for companies to find OCaml > > engineers (it is currently one of our search criteria), and I don't know > > anyone who was unemployed for a longer time. I'd guess that the demand > > for engineers is bigger than the supply. Of course, this might depend on > > where you live, and for what kind of job you go, and getting the first > > position in a certain field is never easy. > > I agree that having OCaml experience on one's resume is not a bad > thing, but that's because it signals general programming competence. > There are plenty of shops that ask for FP experience, but on closer > examination just do that to filter out weaker candidates. The vast > majority would still rather have you write C++ and Python. It's > always hard to find good employees, just less so if you are an actual > FP shop. > > A fairly obvious measure for the balance between supply and demand is > price. E.g. the UK salary ranges in the following guide are probably > not too unrealistic: > > > http://uk.hudson.com/Portals/UK/documents/SalarySurveys/SalaryTables_2016_UK_IT.pdf > > As can be seen, functional programmers pay a heavy price for their > preferences (if they actually want to use an FPL) and that's not just > limited to monetary compensation. If the above guide is of any > indication, they rank near the bottom (below even VBA and HTML5 > developers). > > It's a realistic assumption that money and status are significant > motivators for most students. Having the choice between OCa-what? and > Python, they will quite rationally choose the latter, because it > promises an easier path to attaining their goals. > > The more interesting question actually is why the supply side is so weak. > > Regards, > Markus > > -- > Markus Mottl http://www.ocaml.info markus.mottl@gmail.com > > -- > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > --94eb2c06c36e202cd605373b4fd7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I would take that study with a rather large grain of salt.= The validity of such studies depends enormously on the details of how the = data was gathered, and without digging into those details, I'm not sure= it's much more than noise, especially because the thing being measured= (functional programming jobs in industry) is quite small, and not a major = part of the survey. I don't know that one should trust this any more th= an one does the TIOBE survey of programming language popularity.

My own experience points in the opposite direction of the data lis= ted in the study. It seems pretty clear from our experience in the hiring m= arket that people with OCaml in their background are in high demand, and th= at the places that do hire people to program in OCaml itself need to pay go= od money to be competitive. I know Jane Street pays quite well, and I suspe= ct that Bloomberg and Facebook are also compensating their OCaml-wielding e= mployees in a competitive fashion as well. Also, from what I know from the = banks that hire FP types (a lot of it in Haskell), the compensation their i= s pretty solid as well.

y

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 6:3= 7 PM, Markus Mottl <markus.mottl@gmail.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 7:11 = PM, Gerd Stolpmann <info@gerd-= stolpmann.de> wrote:
> That OCaml is not resume-friendly is a myth that still spreads in the<= br> > academic world. Actually, it is hard for companies to find OCaml
> engineers (it is currently one of our search criteria), and I don'= t know
> anyone who was unemployed for a longer time. I'd guess that the de= mand
> for engineers is bigger than the supply. Of course, this might depend = on
> where you live, and for what kind of job you go, and getting the first=
> position in a certain field is never easy.

I agree that having OCaml experience on one's resume is not a ba= d
thing, but that's because it signals general programming competence.
There are plenty of shops that ask for FP experience, but on closer
examination just do that to filter out weaker candidates.=C2=A0 The vast
majority would still rather have you write C++ and Python.=C2=A0 It's always hard to find good employees, just less so if you are an actual
FP shop.

A fairly obvious measure for the balance between supply and demand is
price.=C2=A0 E.g. the UK salary ranges in the following guide are probably<= br> not too unrealistic:

=C2=A0 http://uk.= hudson.com/Portals/UK/documents/SalarySurveys/SalaryTables_2016_UK_IT.pdf

As can be seen, functional programmers pay a heavy price for their
preferences (if they actually want to use an FPL) and that's not just limited to monetary compensation.=C2=A0 If the above guide is of any
indication, they rank near the bottom (below even VBA and HTML5
developers).

It's a realistic assumption that money and status are significant
motivators for most students.=C2=A0 Having the choice between OCa-what? and=
Python, they will quite rationally choose the latter, because it
promises an easier path to attaining their goals.

The more interesting question actually is why the supply side is so weak.
Regards,
Markus

--
Markus Mottl=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.ocaml.info=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 markus.mottl@gmail.= com

--
Caml-list mailing list.=C2=A0 Subscription management and archives:
https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocam= l_beginners
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs

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