From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Original-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Delivered-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.83]) by sympa.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02B037EE80 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 22:10:34 +0100 (CET) Received-SPF: None (mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of yminsky@janestreet.com) identity=pra; client-ip=38.105.200.229; receiver=mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="yminsky@janestreet.com"; x-sender="yminsky@janestreet.com"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: Pass (mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr: domain of yminsky@janestreet.com designates 38.105.200.229 as permitted sender) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=38.105.200.229; receiver=mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="yminsky@janestreet.com"; x-sender="yminsky@janestreet.com"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible; x-record-type="v=spf1" Received-SPF: None (mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of postmaster@tot-dmz-mxout1.janestreet.com) identity=helo; client-ip=38.105.200.229; receiver=mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="yminsky@janestreet.com"; x-sender="postmaster@tot-dmz-mxout1.janestreet.com"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AtQCAAMlSlEmacjlmWdsb2JhbABEhg+sdZIngUoeDgEBAQEBCAsLBxQogiQBAQQBQAEBLAQHAQQHBAsLBgQBAQENGgciEgEFAQoBCQgZEgKHbgMJBgMJpBSKcoQ7AQWFFgOJXwaNWYErCwcGgzqWY4EfhF6JIxYphEmBTg X-IPAS-Result: AtQCAAMlSlEmacjlmWdsb2JhbABEhg+sdZIngUoeDgEBAQEBCAsLBxQogiQBAQQBQAEBLAQHAQQHBAsLBgQBAQENGgciEgEFAQoBCQgZEgKHbgMJBgMJpBSKcoQ7AQWFFgOJXwaNWYErCwcGgzqWY4EfhF6JIxYphEmBTg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,880,1355094000"; d="scan'208";a="8563039" Received: from mx5.janestreet.com (HELO tot-dmz-mxout1.janestreet.com) ([38.105.200.229]) by mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 20 Mar 2013 22:10:33 +0100 Received: from [172.27.22.15] (helo=tot-smtp) by tot-dmz-mxout1.janestreet.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UIQHH-0007g0-6C for caml-list@inria.fr; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 17:10:31 -0400 Received: from tot-dmz-mxgoog1.delacy.com ([172.27.224.14] helo=mxgoog2.janestreet.com) by tot-smtp with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1UIQHH-0000Rc-5P for caml-list@inria.fr; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 17:10:31 -0400 Received: from mail-wg0-f69.google.com ([74.125.82.69]) by mxgoog2.janestreet.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UIQHH-00028s-1j for caml-list@inria.fr; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 17:10:31 -0400 Received: by mail-wg0-f69.google.com with SMTP id eg6so3141375wgb.8 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 14:10:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=janestreet.com; s=google; h=x-received:mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Fc3+qnaPgdfZncKigjyj0kTWSo+Rsrq9r4F14FLDhIw=; b=fJGcyzyyO4Fbg12UaX30RlcOUNw687Fmu+aX55dsthaNesSUUyMLihh+r0YK+1v2VP THGFDG9PCS4zvSaxY5C6S7/y0wam3rp2wvpLOqZVnfZ/5Ll3hTsYk1OBC3yn+qqCCdP8 kbAe6SrFpqqNnp54dg7IPl4g1dB6uA+zHqf+Y= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=Fc3+qnaPgdfZncKigjyj0kTWSo+Rsrq9r4F14FLDhIw=; b=F4GVF5jdM+FRQXlVoZ/0VT5P+K3r/kUXdIldZLVxnl7zxYVeQSFAu8X/0j03TTPYn9 MuasKEDW6cQrlnhUzy2zPpCQ55fU4EXMDfkotZI0s8JZJG0i8/Fkm+3Vs8B2uNrdL7so buUvr2XiXHDpysJ1dou44Yq6Lb51wqOljggxecqsB1nsaGJOWJfBve9i1q+CTTiStUnt B2ddoBRmOEd00jXKPz1iwcPCiaG5Vwbp5z+4G3uwPPH/WcRc3q6EjcCcA9rh/NZv8W/L 7Dkhk13i6+aALGNT2Nk07h2STapb9/kCMgXpZND5hG28pLwstn3WwBU6CSOZrnBmLSpS yavQ== X-Received: by 10.15.109.137 with SMTP id cf9mr28481936eeb.9.1363813830503; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 14:10:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.15.109.137 with SMTP id cf9mr28481141eeb.9.1363813824379; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 14:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.66.205 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 14:10:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <069c01ce25ab$a9cf3f10$fd6dbd30$@ffconsultancy.com> References: <878v5lca2c.fsf@li195-236.members.linode.com> <9813208.KJBpLPkkvX@groupon> <069c01ce25ab$a9cf3f10$fd6dbd30$@ffconsultancy.com> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 17:10:23 -0400 Message-ID: From: Yaron Minsky To: jon@ffconsultancy.com Cc: Chet Murthy , caml-list@inria.fr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnICdwv4NVoDdDzCJ44zfSOAzXEndYIYTNyxvNrrPOvbe2KCW2P2Erg/uUfAqfBOoxyWUGV1hxQz637cKAsDR8LRysXp9toGTH6Vh6hf4vRvxvuiYWPhr3lQFzQ23ovbvNOoLA+htiY67plFL4rO/MOmZy8kA== Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Re: Haskell vs OCaml On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 4:44 PM, Jon Harrop wrote: > > FWIW, I'd say that the differences between OCaml and Haskell are of academic > interest (first-class modules vs type classes). The important thing is the > shortcomings that both OCaml and Haskell share (high barrier to entry, poor > interop, performance limitations, limited libraries, commerce unfriendly, > ageing foundations). While I agree that first-class modules vs type-classes is not the most burning issue, I broadly disagree with your dismal estimate of the state of the language. I don't think OCaml is unfriendly to commercial users. Certainly Jane Street has had a great relationship with the OCaml maintainers and the larger community. And while there are performance limitations, OCaml's overall performance is quite good and quite predictable. That performance is also rapidly improving as more and more people start working on improving the foundations. It's true that the selection of libraries is limited (less true for Haskell, FWIW). But with the recent arrival of OPAM, the ease of using OCaml has gone way up, and we're already seeing improvements to the set of available libraries. The rest of the toolchain, from performance monitoring tools to document generation to support for IDE-like features, are all actively being worked on. All told, between the work being done at INRIA, OCamlPro, OCaml Labs, and the broader community there's an amazing amount of energy being poured into the language. And one shouldn't lose sight of the most important facts about the language: OCaml is highly productive, and it greatly simplifies the task of building efficient, reliable and above all correct code. y > Cheers, > Jon. > > -----Original Message----- > From: caml-list-request@inria.fr [mailto:caml-list-request@inria.fr] On > Behalf Of Chet Murthy > Sent: 18 March 2013 18:05 > To: caml-list@inria.fr > Subject: [Caml-list] Re: Haskell vs OCaml > > > Geez, I don't want to fan the flames of any sort of war, but .... as long as > this subject came up, I'd really like to find out if anybody has done > decent-sized-system comparisons of ocaml and haskell for performance and > footprint. > > I'm a long-time Caml (and before that SML) hacker, and (hopefully) fully > appreciate the FP Nature, so it's not like I'm looking for an argument about > which language is better, etc, etc. > > And I'm not looking for microbenchmarks, either. I'm looking for > -significant- systems that have been implemented in both, and information > about footprint and performance of those systems. > > Why am I looking? Because if you're a bigot about your favorite language, > and -never- look for countervailing facts about the competition, you might > miss out. > > Heck, that's how I became an Ocaml bigot lo' these many years. > > So .... anybody got anything? > --chet-- > > > -- > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > > > -- > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs