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This idea about gitter to IRC bridge looks very interesting. Actually some ports are blocked in my office and I'm using freenode web interface for IRCing and I do not like this interface (it is awful). Kakadu On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:09 PM, Yotam Barnoy wrote: > Alternatively, we could indeed just use google groups. It looks like > many projects use that. > > On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 1:02 PM, Yotam Barnoy wrot= e: >> The mailing list is still off of inria.fr. >> ocaml.org people, is there any way to move the mailing list domain? >> >> Also, could someone with ocaml github permissions start a gitter.im >> page for OCaml? It should be relatively painless. >> >> -Yotam >> >> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Mohamed Iguernlala >> wrote: >>> Hi there, >>> >>> I guess you found inria.fr and not infria.fr :-). If it's the case, the >>> first thing you should notice when visiting it is the message: >>> >>> "This site is updated infrequently. For up-to-date information, please = visit >>> the new OCaml website at ocaml.org." >>> >>> and on ocaml.org, you'll find a "modern website" with a "more conventio= nal" >>> extension. One click later (on the Community >>> item of the upper menu), you'll get the information you need about mail= ing >>> lists. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> - Mohamed. >>> >>> >>> >>> Le 08/07/2016 17:16, Duane Johnson a =C3=A9crit : >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:40 AM, Gabriel Scherer >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Adoption is interesting but, as Tony Hoare put it, we are not fashion >>>> designers. The best thing I can think of is to communicate more and be= tter, >>>> talk about the cool world that is being done in the OCaml communities,= and >>>> importantly talking about it outside it. Supporting software projects = that >>>> have a potential for impact outside the OCaml community is also key --= Coq, >>>> MLdonkey, Coccinelle, Flow, the SLAM static verifier toolkit, just to = name a >>>> few. >>> >>> >>> >>> As someone who just signed up to this mailing list, may I offer some >>> observations? >>> >>> - my first impression of OCaml community was through reddit.com/r/ocaml= . As >>> a reddit user, I would rank /r/ocaml as "barely alive but stable"--in o= ther >>> words, the upvotes-per-thread there are in the single digits and low >>> double-digits showing people exist there, but it is not a thriving >>> community. >>> - next, I tried to find a google group. It was hard to find any substan= tial >>> and popular OCaml groups there. There was an OCaml aggregation list, bu= t it >>> wasn't clear that it was a discussion group. My first thought was, Is t= here >>> no mailing list? I searched around and found the infria.fr domain. To an >>> outsider, this lends no credibility or brand-name familiarity. Not only= is >>> the web domain unfamiliar, but the website does not look welcoming--it >>> appears to be out of the 90s. >>> - signing up for a mailing list is slow and unrewarding. I'd much rather >>> sign up for a more modern community technology like reddit, facebook, s= lack, >>> or google groups. >>> - I clicked "Info" to get more info about the mailing list on infria.fr= and >>> it says "Private information" inside a white bubble. Ok... >>> - I looked for a chat community, and IRC is the only option. This signa= ls >>> "old tech community" to me. Slack or gitter.im is a more inclusive, mod= ern >>> community. In order to participate in IRC, one must always be connected. >>> This makes it more difficult for outsiders to come in and feel like the= y can >>> 'catch up' on the conversation (Yes, I know there are chat logs, but th= is >>> feature is not an integrated part of IRC). >>> >>> In summary, all of the signals that I usually depend on to evaluate the >>> community around a technology are either weak or give me the impression= of >>> "old and barely stable". New, exciting technologies that I've seen tend= to >>> embrace and tap in to existing community platforms (slack, reddit, gith= ub, >>> gitbook, google groups) in order to leverage the platform and amplify t= heir >>> advertising signal. >>> >>> Duane Johnson >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:40 AM, Gabriel Scherer >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Do others on this list feel the ramp to OCaml adoption is smoother t= han >>>> > my impression suggests? >>>> >>>> I can't speak for "adoption", but I think that you have been very kind= as >>>> far as user experience is concerned, that it is probably worse than you >>>> suggest. >>>> >>>> We discussed some of these issues a few month ago in a thread launched= by >>>> Hendrik Bloom: >>>> >>>> Is OCaml for experienced beginners? >>>> Hendrik Bloom, December 2015 >>>> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list/2015-12/msg00077.html >>>> >>>> I gave a few remarks on the evolution of the OCaml ecosystem on the pe= riod >>>> I know of that you may be interested in: >>>> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list/2015-12/msg00110.html >>>> >>>> I think "adoption" and "usability" are interlinked but separate issues. >>>> >>>> Getting adoption distributes the number of people interesting in helpi= ng >>>> on usability, so it tends to improve usability, but I tend to think th= at the >>>> second is actually the more interesting, important goal to aim at. >>>> >>>> Adoption is interesting but, as Tony Hoare put it, we are not fashion >>>> designers. The best thing I can think of is to communicate more and be= tter, >>>> talk about the cool world that is being done in the OCaml communities,= and >>>> importantly talking about it outside it. Supporting software projects = that >>>> have a potential for impact outside the OCaml community is also key --= Coq, >>>> MLdonkey, Coccinelle, Flow, the SLAM static verifier toolkit, just to = name a >>>> few. >>>> >>>> Regarding usability, I think the tooling ecosystem is too complex toda= y. >>>> If I wanted to bootstrap a beginner to do stuff I would have to tell t= hem >>>> about the OCaml compiler tools (ocamlc, ocamlopt), ocamlfind, a build = system >>>> (omake or ocamlbuild for example), oasis, Merlin, opam, and get them to >>>> learn either Vim or Emacs. That's a bit too much and even with the ple= thora >>>> of tools there are problems we haven't really solved yet -- for exampl= e, how >>>> to avoid module name conflicts. >>>> I think a lot more work is required, both incremental improvements and= a >>>> few grand redesigns, before we reach a comfortable ecosystem where sta= rting >>>> an OCaml project feels like a breeze. That's what I would aim at. >>>> >>>>> Who here is excited about making OCaml approachable to newcomers? Whe= re >>>>> is the main ongoing work on this? Who are the main leaders from this >>>>> perspective? >>>> >>>> >>>> This is an interesting question. To my knowledge, no one is specifical= ly >>>> focused on this mightily important question. But it's fair to assume t= hat we >>>> have no "usability team" today, it's more a distributed collection of >>>> efforts going in all directions from various people, for example: >>>> >>>> - Gerd Stolpmann did a lot of work on the early language tooling, nota= bly >>>> GODI (an earlier ocaml-specific package manager) and ocamlfind, and al= so >>>> kept very high documentation standards that are an example to follow. >>>> >>>> - Sylvain le Gall's work on OASIS helps a lot of developers do their >>>> packaging by encapsulating, in particular, the knowledge of what to in= stall >>>> where (not a simple question). >>>> >>>> - The OPAM team as a whole, as well as the maintainers of the public o= pam >>>> repository, have done tremendous work making OCaml software easy to in= stall >>>> and deploy. (Windows is still of a sore point, but there is progress i= n that >>>> area. It's a distinct possibility that the OCaml ecosystem will become= nice >>>> to use on Windows before Windows disappears or gets a real Unix userla= nd.) >>>> >>>> I would personally be interested in helping someone with a holistic >>>> approach to usability devote as much of their time as they can. (I thi= nk >>>> there are some sources of funding that could be considered, but nothin= g very >>>> certain; from a crowd-funding perspective I would be glad to pay =E2= =82=AC30 a month >>>> to fund such a position.) I think this is a difficult position because= there >>>> is a lot of thankless grunt work implied, and arguably it's not a very >>>> career-advancing move. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:57 AM, Dean Thompson >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Thank you, everyone, for the responses and discussion. If there is >>>>> interest, I would still love to hear more thoughts about whether ther= e is a >>>>> roadmap (either de facto from the community, or explicit from leaders= of the >>>>> community) to foster broader adoption. >>>>> >>>>> I see that many organizations are making immense contributions to the >>>>> community: from language and ecosystem enhancements, to Real World OC= aml, to >>>>> the OCaml Users and Developers Workshop. Technical progress is rapid.= But so >>>>> far, to me, these wonderful contributions feel more like giving back = to the >>>>> community for us to make what we can of them, rather than anyone=E2= =80=99s >>>>> systematic effort to streamline broader uptake of OCaml. >>>>> >>>>> These are the impressions of a newcomer. If there is interest, I would >>>>> love to hear more seasoned viewpoints. >>>>> >>>>> Dean >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: >>>>> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list >>>>> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners >>>>> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >>>> >>>> >>> >>> > > -- > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs