From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82]) by walapai.inria.fr (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id pBAAa9E4011873 for ; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 11:36:09 +0100 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvwAADM1405KfVI0imdsb2JhbABDqnQIIgEBAQoJDQcSBiGCCwIsARseAxIJAQZdAREBBQEiHBmHbpYEglwKi2SCa4Q/PYhxAgUMi2EElHGNcT2Deg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,331,1320620400"; d="scan'208";a="134820206" Received: from mail-ww0-f52.google.com ([74.125.82.52]) by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 10 Dec 2011 11:36:03 +0100 Received: by wgbdr12 with SMTP id dr12so8876342wgb.9 for ; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 02:36:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=5WRpfvxZ+vAyAOCqGC5aRY+TXXxOukMDc7zvTzr2AQY=; b=jvB/CWDuP6GNeBOffMOfRbACXgRmuG+L/8ZSdtplgEGgSw1gIds9Lywoa8moiCJ2eo 2s+IaRCbjOQa7mPuG0Q78WKEJW0xpH/CjAjKYWmrPCK3930IL5poBN9EtJygdNh/CBvk iLjl/zfTu02xUEGW8CEbh2ON48MUsZ2iUV2ps= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.46.148 with SMTP id r20mr1108719web.114.1323513363214; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 02:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.6.197 with HTTP; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 02:36:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 11:36:03 +0100 Message-ID: From: Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons To: caml-list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016364c7f3fdeb41b04b3ba7792 Subject: [Caml-list] Why isn't there a common platform for functional language interaction ? --0016364c7f3fdeb41b04b3ba7792 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Caml-list, Given that other people are raising trolls, here is mine... I have to admit I appreciate F# transparent interaction with C# libraries which allows me to use large amounts of code that I would have had to poorly rewrite otherwise (GUI, database, web stuff, etc). Same happens with SML, Caml, Haskell and F#, some pieces of code are just way better in one language than in the others, and you end partially porting these libraries to Caml which is a waste of time and you don't benefit from the updates of the original code and nobody but you can maintain your quick-and-dirty port. Why isn't there a core functional languages to which everyone could compile, on which the compiler research could be done (certification, optimisation, garbage collection) and that would allow full interaction of the different dialects at run-time ? At some point I thought that C-- (http://www.cminusminus.org/index.html) and that type of work would converge to that but it never happened. Diego Olivier --0016364c7f3fdeb41b04b3ba7792 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =A0=A0=A0 Caml-list,

Given that other people are raising trolls, her= e is mine...

I have to admit I appreciate F# transparent interaction= with C# libraries which allows me to use large amounts of code that I woul= d have had to poorly rewrite otherwise (GUI, database, web stuff, etc). Sam= e happens with SML, Caml, Haskell and F#, some pieces of code are just way = better in one language than in the others, and you end partially porting th= ese libraries to Caml which is a waste of time and you don't benefit fr= om the updates of the original code and nobody but you can maintain your qu= ick-and-dirty port.

Why isn't there a core functional languages to which everyone could= compile, on which the compiler research could be done (certification, opti= misation, garbage collection) and that would allow full interaction of the = different dialects at run-time ?

At some point I thought that C-- (http://www.cminusminus.org/index.html) and that type of wo= rk would converge to that but it never happened.

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0 Diego Olivier
--0016364c7f3fdeb41b04b3ba7792-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82]) by walapai.inria.fr (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id pBACNwG2014760 for ; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:23:58 +0100 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AtcCAJlO406K54gDgWdsb2JhbABDFoRxpXUiAQEWJiWBcgEBBSNVARALGgIFFgsCAgkDAgECAUUGDQEHAgWIAQajd5EsgTSJI4EWBJRxhUuMXQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,331,1320620400"; d="scan'208";a="134828291" Received: from rouge.crans.org ([138.231.136.3]) by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 10 Dec 2011 13:23:53 +0100 Received: from localhost (localhost.crans.org [127.0.0.1]) by rouge.crans.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B864C8380; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:23:51 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at crans.org Received: from rouge.crans.org ([10.231.136.3]) by localhost (rouge.crans.org [10.231.136.3]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id IB8eNhVwVvEA; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:23:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.39.1] (fbx.up7.fr [81.56.96.177]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by rouge.crans.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7D90184B3; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:23:51 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4EE34F56.8010709@glondu.net> Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:23:50 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?U3TDqXBoYW5lIEdsb25kdQ==?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.24) Gecko/20111114 Icedove/3.1.16 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons CC: caml-list References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.2 OpenPGP: id=49881AD3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by walapai.inria.fr id pBACNwG2014760 Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Why isn't there a common platform for functional language interaction ? Le 10/12/2011 11:36, Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons a écrit : > At some point I thought that C-- (http://www.cminusminus.org/index.html) > and that type of work would converge to that but it never happened. Interesting... but it doesn't seem to have evolved since 2007. LLVM and Parrot advertised the same goals, and are uncontroversial technologies in my opinion. I think that to achieve better interoperability and "hype", one of those would be a better fit than the current native and bytecode compilers. I know, either is probably not the best fit w.r.t. performances (actually, I've got some concern about Parrot's design, but that's not the point), but, come on... do people really chose to write in OCaml because of performances? Much more people write in Perl, Python, etc. for reasons that could be applied to OCaml (if there were only the toplevel). By the way, as far as OCaml is concerned, there was also the OCamlIL project [1], but it looks dead now (and .NET is not a technology I would call uncontroversial). [1] http://www.pps.jussieu.fr/~montela/ocamil/ Cheers, -- Stéphane From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mail4-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail4-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.105]) by walapai.inria.fr (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id pBACd7JW015185 for ; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:39:07 +0100 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ah0BAJtR407UGyoEkWdsb2JhbABDqnwiAQEBAQkLCwcUAyKBcgEBBAE6RAsLNBIUKCGIGwK1JosKYwSUcJIp X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,331,1320620400"; d="scan'208";a="122845247" Received: from smtp4-g21.free.fr ([212.27.42.4]) by mail4-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 10 Dec 2011 13:39:01 +0100 Received: from ombreroze.happyleptic.org (unknown [82.229.213.209]) by smtp4-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 071374C846C for ; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:38:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from rixed by ombreroze.happyleptic.org with local (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1RZMCb-0001cL-Ht for caml-list@inria.fr; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:38:53 +0100 Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:38:53 +0100 From: rixed@happyleptic.org To: caml-list Message-ID: <20111210123853.GA5107@ombreroze.happyleptic.org> References: <4EE34F56.8010709@glondu.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4EE34F56.8010709@glondu.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Why isn't there a common platform for functional language interaction ? > I think that to achieve better > interoperability and "hype", one of those would be a better fit than the > current native and bytecode compilers. Next year is going to be exciting with so many people commiting themselves to develop all these additions to the compiler ! :-) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82]) by walapai.inria.fr (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id pBACx4pG015784 for ; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:59:04 +0100 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvwAANlW405KfVIqimdsb2JhbABDqnQIIgEBAQoJDQcSBiGBcgEBAQQSAiwBGx0BAwwGBQsHBi4hAQERAQUBDg4GCgkJGYdumEgKi2SCa4RDPYhxAgUMi2EElHGKaYMIPYN6 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,331,1320620400"; d="scan'208";a="134830751" Received: from mail-ww0-f42.google.com ([74.125.82.42]) by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-SHA; 10 Dec 2011 13:58:59 +0100 Received: by wgbds13 with SMTP id ds13so5109588wgb.3 for ; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 04:58:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=JJ78jlsm+vjdpdyycsmhyjNs0PMVtAAEkpwWGRRczfQ=; b=qi9HVbvXBMmPua9NY6XqpwXPb7q5kRYsE1A0+ISQl37C4dMrT9WsSk+5jUWZL1Pawq ay6rdZQWHpEYb6fkd1mGHMwKQ/oZ4Du5L9BORbcsQDyHFb3o2xywiJLeb6PDrEWSIoRc RvLGKZOW7QQCCG2q83y5B/nwRprKUNmOXLMNw= Received: by 10.180.105.3 with SMTP id gi3mr14659412wib.36.1323521938823; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 04:58:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.43.4 with HTTP; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 04:58:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Gabriel Scherer Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:58:36 +0100 Message-ID: To: Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons Cc: caml-list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by walapai.inria.fr id pBACx4pG015784 Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Why isn't there a common platform for functional language interaction ? There already exist such a common denominator language. For performance reasons, it is architecture-dependent (I mean there are several dialects to better use hardware peculiarities; the virtual machine it runs on is not exactly virtual). Unfortunately, most languages have concentrated on compiling to it in an efficient manner, rather than considering how to interact with the other ones. For maintainability reasons, we tend to develop N wrappers to a historic common bridge language also compiled to that common denominator (you may have heard of it before as it can also barely be used for programming, it's called C), rather than N*N wrappers, one for each pair of languages. The common denominator language also doesn't provide runtime facilities (how could F#, SML, OCaml and Haskell agree on a common runtime anyway?), and it is very hard to make the various runtimes interact gracefully (eg. you basically can't share data except raw numbers, only transfer ownership from one runtime to another). There have been plans to move to a better common denominator, or at least a better bridge language (C--, LLVM, ...), but it is very hard to move from the historical choice, despite the attracting technical improvements of newer candidates. Moreover, it is basically impossible to move up the abstraction ladder (eg. provide common runtime components) without sacrificing universality or efficiency. On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons wrote: >     Caml-list, > > Given that other people are raising trolls, here is mine... > > I have to admit I appreciate F# transparent interaction with C# libraries > which allows me to use large amounts of code that I would have had to poorly > rewrite otherwise (GUI, database, web stuff, etc). Same happens with SML, > Caml, Haskell and F#, some pieces of code are just way better in one > language than in the others, and you end partially porting these libraries > to Caml which is a waste of time and you don't benefit from the updates of > the original code and nobody but you can maintain your quick-and-dirty port. > > Why isn't there a core functional languages to which everyone could compile, > on which the compiler research could be done (certification, optimisation, > garbage collection) and that would allow full interaction of the different > dialects at run-time ? > > At some point I thought that C-- (http://www.cminusminus.org/index.html) and > that type of work would converge to that but it never happened. > >         Diego Olivier From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82]) by walapai.inria.fr (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id pBADsVmO016544 for ; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 14:54:31 +0100 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Au8BABRk407AbSoIe2dsb2JhbABDhQeldSIBARYmBCGBcgEBBSNWEAsJDwICJgICFBhEiAqjZpEiFIEghx+CBDNjBI04hziSKQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,331,1320620400"; d="scan'208";a="134833964" Received: from einhorn.in-berlin.de ([192.109.42.8]) by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 Dec 2011 14:54:28 +0100 X-Envelope-From: oliver@first.in-berlin.de Received: from first (e178013058.adsl.alicedsl.de [85.178.13.58]) (authenticated bits=0) by einhorn.in-berlin.de (8.13.6/8.13.6/Debian-1) with ESMTP id pBADsQce018160 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 10 Dec 2011 14:54:26 +0100 Received: by first (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1FEF31540359; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 14:54:26 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 14:54:26 +0100 From: oliver To: rixed@happyleptic.org Cc: caml-list Message-ID: <20111210135426.GA5401@siouxsie> References: <4EE34F56.8010709@glondu.net> <20111210123853.GA5107@ombreroze.happyleptic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20111210123853.GA5107@ombreroze.happyleptic.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang_at_IN-Berlin_e.V. on 192.109.42.8 Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Why isn't there a common platform for functional language interaction ? On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 01:38:53PM +0100, rixed@happyleptic.org wrote: > > I think that to achieve better > > interoperability and "hype", one of those would be a better fit than the > > current native and bytecode compilers. > > Next year is going to be exciting with so many people commiting themselves > to develop all these additions to the compiler ! :-) [...] A lot of people think, next year (2012) will be the end of the world. But there is no proof for this so far. Not even a reason. Only the maya calendar's value overflow. But maybe you have found the explanation for it, so we all will be doomed. ;-) Ciao, Oliver From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82]) by walapai.inria.fr (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id pBAEFkFn017413 for ; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 15:15:46 +0100 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ah0BAFlo405UXeb0mWdsb2JhbABDgk2mQYFuIgEBAQEBCAsLBxQlgXIBAQUIAiNZAwIJEQQBASgHGQglCQgCBAESCQIFCwSHawa0fYttBIx5KZI4hz4 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,331,1320620400"; d="scan'208,217";a="134835391" Received: from avasout03.plus.net ([84.93.230.244]) by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 10 Dec 2011 15:15:45 +0100 Received: from WinEight ([87.112.3.248]) by avasout03 with smtp id 7SFj1i0025M3mNF01SFkU2; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 14:15:45 +0000 X-CM-Score: 0.00 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=DvLUCRD+ c=1 sm=1 a=GjnyKHSvfo4njrfFNrGbAg==:17 a=Gx_mUJMDI1cA:10 a=Xub9RBUEA-sA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=G1RCX-wAAAAA:8 a=avIyoF0dRo8Iy9vSQMEA:9 a=ey2g1QnFOH2RT5bj3pcA:7 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=olVbFLc1DztkCKAN:21 a=ooi519hK9AmukW_I:21 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=_EqSN1IPPeNtcn2CFvcA:9 a=3gnSFiaHBFDFojyiragA:7 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=GjnyKHSvfo4njrfFNrGbAg==:117 From: "Jon Harrop" To: "'Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons'" , "'caml-list'" References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 14:15:40 -0000 Message-ID: <019c01ccb746$3313a160$993ae420$@ffconsultancy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_019D_01CCB746.3314D9E0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQHRhSi3KMPwwcLGPCglYWHrCxQ3gZXLVx5w Content-Language: en-gb Subject: RE: [Caml-list] Why isn't there a common platform for functional language interaction ? This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_019D_01CCB746.3314D9E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Most projects are either academic research or industrial products. In academia, reinventing a common language run-time won't get funding because it is not novel enough. In industry, products that aren't economically viable in the mid-term (years) or sooner won't get funding. So the common solutions don't work here. There are at least two alternatives. One is to join forces with a massive company like Microsoft who are willing to risk comparatively huge lead times, as they did with .NET, but the result will be proprietary. The other is to earn millions yourself and invest in the R&D that you think will be most beneficial, as Stephen Wolfram did. Perhaps another alternative would be to adopt Microsoft's CLR and focus on creating an open source implementation that has a working garbage collector and decent performance. Also, interoperability is not the only benefit of a common language run-time. Another major benefit is maturity: because you have multiple languages sitting on top of the same run-time all of the programs in all of those languages are testing your run-time. Cheers, Jon. From: Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons [mailto:dofp.ocaml@gmail.com] Sent: 10 December 2011 10:36 To: caml-list Subject: [Caml-list] Why isn't there a common platform for functional language interaction ? Caml-list, Given that other people are raising trolls, here is mine... I have to admit I appreciate F# transparent interaction with C# libraries which allows me to use large amounts of code that I would have had to poorly rewrite otherwise (GUI, database, web stuff, etc). Same happens with SML, Caml, Haskell and F#, some pieces of code are just way better in one language than in the others, and you end partially porting these libraries to Caml which is a waste of time and you don't benefit from the updates of the original code and nobody but you can maintain your quick-and-dirty port. Why isn't there a core functional languages to which everyone could compile, on which the compiler research could be done (certification, optimisation, garbage collection) and that would allow full interaction of the different dialects at run-time ? At some point I thought that C-- (http://www.cminusminus.org/index.html) and that type of work would converge to that but it never happened. Diego Olivier ------=_NextPart_000_019D_01CCB746.3314D9E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Most proj= ects are either academic research or industrial products. In academia, rein= venting a common language run-time won’t get funding because it is no= t novel enough. In industry, products that aren’t economically viable= in the mid-term (years) or sooner won’t get funding. So the common s= olutions don’t work here.

<= span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F= 497D'> 

There are at = least two alternatives. One is to join forces with a massive company like M= icrosoft who are willing to risk comparatively huge lead times, as they did= with .NET, but the result will be proprietary. The other is to earn millio= ns yourself and invest in the R&D that you think will be most beneficia= l, as Stephen Wolfram did.

 

Perhaps another al= ternative would be to adopt Microsoft’s CLR and focus on creating an = open source implementation that has a working garbage collector and decent = performance.

 

Also, interoperability is not th= e only benefit of a common language run-time. Another major benefit is matu= rity: because you have multiple languages sitting on top of the same run-ti= me all of the programs in all of those languages are testing your run-time.=

 <= /p>

Cheers,

Jon.

&nb= sp;

From:= Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons [mailto:dofp.ocaml@gmail.com]=
Sent: 10 December 2011 10:36
To: caml-list
Subj= ect: [Caml-list] Why isn't there a common platform for functional langu= age interaction ?

 

    Caml-list,
Given that other people are raising trolls, here is mine...

I have = to admit I appreciate F# transparent interaction with C# libraries which al= lows me to use large amounts of code that I would have had to poorly rewrit= e otherwise (GUI, database, web stuff, etc). Same happens with SML, Caml, H= askell and F#, some pieces of code are just way better in one language than= in the others, and you end partially porting these libraries to Caml which= is a waste of time and you don't benefit from the updates of the original = code and nobody but you can maintain your quick-and-dirty port.

Why = isn't there a core functional languages to which everyone could compile, on= which the compiler research could be done (certification, optimisation, ga= rbage collection) and that would allow full interaction of the different di= alects at run-time ?

At some point I thought that C-- (http://www.cminusminus.org/index.html<= /a>) and that type of work would converge to that but it never happened.
        Diego Olivier

= ------=_NextPart_000_019D_01CCB746.3314D9E0-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mail4-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail4-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.105]) by walapai.inria.fr (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id pBAI0akb021713 for ; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 19:00:36 +0100 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AmMBAPad407U4xEKk2dsb2JhbABDqn4iAQEBAQkJCwkUAyKBcgEBAQQBAjVAEQshFg8JAwIBAgEWLxMIAQGIBga0XIhTgxoEkkyCJZIo X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,332,1320620400"; d="scan'208";a="122860314" Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de ([212.227.17.10]) by mail4-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 10 Dec 2011 19:00:31 +0100 Received: from keller.hars.de (p4FF61EB4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.246.30.180]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mreu4) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0M2kFe-1Qj7Jg2rbC-00scbH; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 19:00:30 +0100 Received: from bessel.fritz.box ([192.168.178.33]) by keller.hars.de with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RZRDq-0003sn-6j for caml-list@inria.fr; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 19:00:30 +0100 Message-ID: <4EE39E3D.2060206@hars.de> Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 19:00:29 +0100 From: Florian Hars User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111124 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: caml-list@inria.fr References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 192.168.178.33 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: florian@hars.de X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on keller.hars.de); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:E+yI8efU8w37PrsRe9hDUiTIugneEY06M2XESM6F2aX tqCP6EMMDb6n+Ute+okwHg4WJaVHJ2Yx8LGZddSApR+DyqsGvF hvxHYK4to4rRyl9090hRFR6cu4nyVtUK9h7ahIUY6i83Mucy6o jvjzxYW/4rcH+P2ZKXf+qUCt8uYWp8pdFKlGJOJc2QA6b5uLS7 PeW4Xhtv8Fu1vdNT8IkofaZi7/rrKLT/n4W5WHRn+BqLmENW7D g5k/JjMFzhjyiZinVM1FqYQXWkIQrW/y9o7wEE3/CjeGCJU6Pq 0cNJbWPz/0DELg2yP5AWm1qRvUZF29eEEyFuZosP6zcgNbaXQ= = Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Why isn't there a common platform for functional language interaction ? Am 10.12.2011 13:58, schrieb Gabriel Scherer: > Moreover, it is basically impossible > to move up the abstraction ladder (eg. provide common runtime > components) without sacrificing universality or efficiency. This might be relevant to the topic at hand: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/dotgnu-general/2002-06/msg00197.html - Florian. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mail4-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail4-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.105]) by walapai.inria.fr (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id pBAKi7iO025791 for ; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 21:44:07 +0100 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AsEAAAfD405KfVI0imdsb2JhbABDomgBhiZegQkIIgEBAQoJDQcSBiGBcgEBAQMBEgITGQEbHQEDAQsGBQQHBzQhAQERAQUBDg4GEyKHZgiYDAqLZIJrhCg9iHECBQyLYQSUcYppgwg9g3o X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,332,1320620400"; d="scan'208";a="122866470" Received: from mail-ww0-f52.google.com ([74.125.82.52]) by mail4-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 10 Dec 2011 21:44:02 +0100 Received: by wgbdr12 with SMTP id dr12so9909656wgb.9 for ; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 12:44:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=+y1qb79U4JcJvr2X0lKVRy7o3vLXkmMOD75iC4x4n/I=; b=tcbFvkPmbozKtQPH3C4SfU6l3nCqsNlwRc6VCJtBWSs1ZZmnHCo1ahzLtpOBpzrEVc CAIZfvHTpviYJwTWJGGfnU4a1nTT75YcQs4rOX26JNpVccQPNBDxCtJyzjmQRwTXMIob GenFC+SnwIDr+oTZSIwckY3eD5s13EkSal/Lo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.81.163 with SMTP id b3mr15997027wiy.20.1323549842043; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 12:44:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.6.197 with HTTP; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 12:44:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 21:44:01 +0100 Message-ID: From: Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons To: Gabriel Scherer Cc: caml-list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044402722d72b104b3c2f6ba Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Why isn't there a common platform for functional language interaction ? --f46d044402722d72b104b3c2f6ba Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Caml-list On 10 December 2011 13:58, Gabriel Scherer wrote: > There already exist such a common denominator language. For > performance reasons, it is architecture-dependent [...] > There have been plans to move to a better common denominator, or at > least a better bridge language (C--, LLVM, ...) > Why should that be a low-level language ? Why not core-ML ? What I see as the very first issue is the spread of the efforts between similar yet incompatible ML dialects leading to 4 weak communities (SML, OCaml, F#, Haskell) instead of a really strong one and all the related problems that come with it (fewer books, risk for industrials, work duplication, inefficient funding, lack of visibility, etc). Example : there is an excellent whole source code optimiser ... for SML. And an award winning SMT solver ... in Caml developed in a company that invests heavily in information-centric web applications ... in F# ( http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/redmond/projects/z3/ if you don't know Nikolaj Bjorner's Z3). Now say you want to do an application that delivers optimal electricity production plans. What language do you choose ? Just being able to reuse the source-code between string ML dialects even after recompilation (X -> CoreML -> specific platform) would be an improvement. Diego Olivier --f46d044402722d72b104b3c2f6ba Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =A0=A0=A0 Caml-list

On 10 December 2011 13:58, Gabriel Scherer <
gabriel.scherer@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0
There already exist such = a common denominator language. For
performance reasons, it is architecture-dependent=A0
[...]
There have been plans to move to a better common denominator, or at
least a better bridge language (C--, LLVM, ...)

Wh= y should that be a low-level language ? Why not core-ML ?

What I see= as the very first issue is the spread of the efforts between similar yet i= ncompatible ML dialects leading to 4 weak communities (SML, OCaml, F#, Hask= ell) instead of a really strong one and all the related problems that come = with it (fewer books, risk for industrials, work duplication, inefficient f= unding, lack of visibility, etc).

Example : there is an excellent whole source code optimiser ... for SML= . And an award winning SMT solver ... in Caml developed in a company that i= nvests heavily in information-centric web applications ... in F# (http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/redmond/projects/z3/ if = you don't know Nikolaj Bjorner's Z3). Now say you want to do an app= lication that delivers optimal electricity production plans. What language = do you choose ?

Just being able to reuse the source-code between string ML dialects eve= n after recompilation (X -> CoreML -> specific platform) would be an improvement.

=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Diego Olivier
--f46d044402722d72b104b3c2f6ba-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82]) by walapai.inria.fr (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id pBALEgwU027356 for ; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 22:14:42 +0100 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ag0FADvL404+3JIEgWdsb2JhbABDp3mBXIEpIgEBFiYlgXIBAQQBJxM1CgULCxgcEhQYMYgbAga0QosKYwSUcJIp X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,332,1320620400"; d="scan'208";a="134855878" Received: from vs.philou.ch ([62.220.146.4]) by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 10 Dec 2011 22:14:37 +0100 Received: by vs.philou.ch (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BD90769C5E8; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 22:14:36 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 22:14:36 +0100 From: Philippe Strauss To: Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons Cc: Gabriel Scherer , caml-list Message-ID: <20111210211436.GA17859@vs.philou.ch> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Why isn't there a common platform for functional language interaction ? On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 09:44:01PM +0100, Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons wrote: > > What I see as the very first issue is the spread of the efforts between > similar yet incompatible ML dialects leading to 4 weak communities (SML, > OCaml, F#, Haskell) instead of a really strong one and all the related > problems that come with it (fewer books, risk for industrials, work > duplication, inefficient funding, lack of visibility, etc). > > Example : there is an excellent whole source code optimiser ... for SML. > And an award winning SMT solver ... in Caml developed in a company that > invests heavily in information-centric web applications ... in F# ( > http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/redmond/projects/z3/ if you don't > know Nikolaj Bjorner's Z3). Now say you want to do an application that > delivers optimal electricity production plans. What language do you choose ? Sure but is there any effort not based on free will limitation which would works ? Marketing, an attractive website, an packaging/oasis-db like thing, good introductory tutorials (I've appreciated the chapter1 of jon harrop, btw), a distro maybe based on batteries or ... argh. Each piece of software, libraries, exist becaus of a reserch project, someone choosing ocaml as the tool of choice, or spare-time and leisure. This diversity is the consequence of free will. sometimes it's waste of resources, but try to join each resources by email and convince them to unify their efforts. Or give them compensation for it. Joining together jane-street core and batteries, you can already forget about it, so joining ML/Haskell/OCaml/F# efforts together... And people getting away from for example c-- or llvm based lower level stuff, there's always an explanation of lower "energy" like barrier to get a thing done, writing your own stuff rather than diving and get drown in a monster, etc... that's open source devel. > Just being able to reuse the source-code between string ML dialects even > after recompilation (X -> CoreML -> specific platform) would be an > improvement. -- Philippe Strauss av. de Beaulieu 25 1004 Lausanne http://www.philou.ch From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Original-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Delivered-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Received: from mail4-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail4-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.105]) by sympa.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 955257EE86 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2012 18:27:36 +0100 (CET) Received-SPF: None (mail4-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of jon@ffconsultancy.com) identity=pra; client-ip=84.93.230.235; receiver=mail4-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="jon@ffconsultancy.com"; x-sender="jon@ffconsultancy.com"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: None (mail4-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of jon@ffconsultancy.com) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=84.93.230.235; receiver=mail4-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="jon@ffconsultancy.com"; x-sender="jon@ffconsultancy.com"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: None (mail4-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of postmaster@avasout07.plus.net) identity=helo; client-ip=84.93.230.235; receiver=mail4-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="jon@ffconsultancy.com"; x-sender="postmaster@avasout07.plus.net"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ArACAEUaqVBUXebrlWdsb2JhbABFgkm3CQGJXCMBAQEBCQsJCRIpgh4BAQUIAh0GTA0DAgkRAQMBASgHGQglAwYIAgQBEgsFh2sDEwe1Jg2JVIkdgi6FdgONdIYzgnGKFogA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.83,275,1352070000"; d="scan'208,217";a="162902532" Received: from avasout07.plus.net ([84.93.230.235]) by mail4-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 18 Nov 2012 18:27:29 +0100 Received: from WinEight ([46.208.114.130]) by avasout07 with smtp id R5TT1k0062osE1J015TU6s; Sun, 18 Nov 2012 17:27:29 +0000 X-CM-Score: 0.00 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=NJFXCjGg c=1 sm=1 a=ed27cldjFerWXI38i2tNxQ==:17 a=Gx_mUJMDI1cA:10 a=Xub9RBUEA-sA:10 a=r2vSxAw-AAAA:8 a=mHYtrs7u0r4A:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=033O-SZg2DXxQcedmugA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=khOJthl6tAXHBQxoMlsA:9 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 a=AOLkJbUluZAouX-5:21 a=ed27cldjFerWXI38i2tNxQ==:117 From: "Jon Harrop" To: "'Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons'" , "'Gabriel Scherer'" Cc: "'caml-list'" References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 17:26:56 -0000 Message-ID: <036e01cdc5b1$e97a1db0$bc6e5910$@ffconsultancy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_036F_01CDC5B1.E9801120" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQHRhSi3KMPwwcLGPCglYWHrCxQ3gQHeZ4jSAm9kcxmXxerTAA== Content-Language: en-gb Subject: RE: [Caml-list] Why isn't there a common platform for functional language interaction ? This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_036F_01CDC5B1.E9801120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Agreed! Being able to share FFI bindings would be even more useful. Cheers, Jon. From: Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons [mailto:dofp.ocaml@gmail.com] Sent: 10 December 2011 20:44 To: Gabriel Scherer Cc: caml-list Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Why isn't there a common platform for functional language interaction ? Caml-list On 10 December 2011 13:58, Gabriel Scherer wrote: There already exist such a common denominator language. For performance reasons, it is architecture-dependent [...] There have been plans to move to a better common denominator, or at least a better bridge language (C--, LLVM, ...) Why should that be a low-level language ? Why not core-ML ? What I see as the very first issue is the spread of the efforts between similar yet incompatible ML dialects leading to 4 weak communities (SML, OCaml, F#, Haskell) instead of a really strong one and all the related problems that come with it (fewer books, risk for industrials, work duplication, inefficient funding, lack of visibility, etc). Example : there is an excellent whole source code optimiser ... for SML. And an award winning SMT solver ... in Caml developed in a company that invests heavily in information-centric web applications ... in F# (http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/redmond/projects/z3/ if you don't know Nikolaj Bjorner's Z3). Now say you want to do an application that delivers optimal electricity production plans. What language do you choose ? Just being able to reuse the source-code between string ML dialects even after recompilation (X -> CoreML -> specific platform) would be an improvement. Diego Olivier ------=_NextPart_000_036F_01CDC5B1.E9801120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Agreed! B= eing able to share FFI bindings would be even more useful.

 

Cheers,

Jon.=

 <= /p>

From: = Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons [mailto:dofp.ocaml@gmail.com]
Sent:= 10 December 2011 20:44
To: Gabriel Scherer
Cc: caml-li= st
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Why isn't there a common platform for= functional language interaction ?

 

    = Caml-list

On 10 December 2011 13:58, Gabriel Scherer <gabriel.scherer@gmail.c= om> wrote:

 <= /o:p>

There already exist such a common denominator language. Forperformance reasons, it is architecture-dependent 

[...]

There have been plans to move to a b= etter common denominator, or at
least a better bridge language (C--, LLV= M, ...)


Why should= that be a low-level language ? Why not core-ML ?

What I see as the = very first issue is the spread of the efforts between similar yet incompati= ble ML dialects leading to 4 weak communities (SML, OCaml, F#, Haskell) ins= tead of a really strong one and all the related problems that come with it = (fewer books, risk for industrials, work duplication, inefficient funding, = lack of visibility, etc).

Example : there is an excellent whole sour= ce code optimiser ... for SML. And an award winning SMT solver ... in Caml = developed in a company that invests heavily in information-centric web appl= ications ... in F# (http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/r= edmond/projects/z3/ if you don't know Nikolaj Bjorner's Z3). Now say yo= u want to do an application that delivers optimal electricity production pl= ans. What language do you choose ?

Just being able to reuse the sour= ce-code between string ML dialects even after recompilation (X -> CoreML= -> specific platform) would be an improvement.

   = ;     Diego Olivier

= ------=_NextPart_000_036F_01CDC5B1.E9801120--