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d="scan'208,217";a="357438374" Received: from mail-io1-f53.google.com ([209.85.166.53]) by mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-GCM-SHA256; 26 Nov 2018 18:15:59 +0100 Received: by mail-io1-f53.google.com with SMTP id r200so14541778iod.11 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2018 09:15:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SOCvZr94e9BfyILR2cQeK8DB9XhuJXNRbtGtA4p5GSI=; b=M/LjCXb6bA6wPIVEvMdxy8cxo103wS+k8QR0vAgm27b4LWiPvihF9jAwzCybZD2KTY 8aCV/V92OXQP74kbYVdPhaXPCRvypDWyJQLdFp9Ss5kVpiiYefFQkAp6/WX+nE09sK3W tFPQQQcP855m7144UfGpkIkrVQ2pOm51yoJ4qnRXQuzvPBoNCOIpVwUSeqjDrUMxL3/F +phA7XgtjjiQunH9fNF4Zu5EaXffFIEFa3qbBKnQjbWMR/PRUsHOnZY1w8vuHP6HBSGA eaSxUVd0euResNQcFeGwK3OzqxXT7l3Bk+Ygp3WhZs2iw0ErIT4MfqGFYjgprsDk/MsM KBmQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SOCvZr94e9BfyILR2cQeK8DB9XhuJXNRbtGtA4p5GSI=; b=SC/3r5AM3WL8cs+EwT/S/GfZXGXRMTQ09422wQ1drMvakNxXmn+GnyW1op1/IYN8/d Q7ivYjrsYHn40h63aK8SkjgysbSBn8RoasygweBsf06ijjwgS8l4uFaNBTX4uJEP7brh j961EGgrl09xIqOz9ZlJc3aBk8zD0GzwDaZl+45qmc4D2N9QQka42uBg5aX+kC9jGzu1 WeUkxTuIbvh9dvIeF89TCpwwd5TDDUpJWCW+VsVS2M1wrUjpseFmu1A7dEyuuaVzW91/ V9WZwbIKRIsrMtNxLT6CLzKn7UiFDJhMNZX4gS+YYmY8st0+5PFKsOzKYl6SiKM2c/Lp BoqA== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWZjNvAMWcAdMVd6fgohDYFJcHYWpJ2Am4NW3ZDEUi8mkZ6zIfTg nT37dvyYpy2PhbXQ4E063r+/Hb0lhytdUIPLpg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/Vmc+FsDh864GDbA/dXZ3hk3JaxOSZ8RcrAkZXNYL9PhS0iJGt1gCJvyTdvJd2WLPCBCLnjmv6vW1tMy2ixP80= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:970c:: with SMTP id h12mr17008769iol.3.1543252558219; Mon, 26 Nov 2018 09:15:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181126101448.3ee5jgz4c6ulsbbr@first.in-berlin.de> In-Reply-To: From: Yawar Amin Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 12:15:52 -0500 Message-ID: To: Julia Lawall Cc: oliver@first.in-berlin.de, Ocaml Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000880e0d057b947cfd" Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Build-/Installation-Tools - not enogh of them? Reply-To: Yawar Amin X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Sequence: 17146 Errors-to: caml-list-owner@inria.fr Precedence: list Precedence: bulk Sender: caml-list-request@inria.fr X-no-archive: yes List-Id: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000880e0d057b947cfd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Julia, I agree that we need to simplify the life of the user. But that's the developer's job, not the language toolchain. Users should not need to know or care about OCaml (ideally), they should download and run binary packages or install them through their operating system package manager. Since it's not possible for many projects to provide all possible system binaries to users, the fallback should be for the user to build the package with clear instructions that they'll need to install opam and then `opam build` (e.g.). Regards, Yawar On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 11:59 AM Julia Lawall wrote: > > > On Mon, 26 Nov 2018, Yawar Amin wrote: > > > If anyone would like to chime in and say that OCaml build and packaging > > system is not that complicated, I would recommend first looking > > at https://github.com/rizo/awesome-ocaml#package-management . IMHO we > need > > to seriously look at consolidating efforts around OPAM for package > > management, packaging, building, testing and running. All the serious > > language-specific package managers do it, it's a proven strategy and it > > simplifies life for the developer. > > I find it odd that simplifying the life of the developer is the highest > priority. Doesn't one want to simplify the life of the user? Ideally the > user who has never touched OCaml before in his life? > > As a simple example, the web page for installing OCaml says that the > recommended way to install ocaml is to install opam. There is a link to a > page explaining how to install opam. How should anyone even have > confidence that they will end up with OCaml after following those > instructions? Even step 1 of the installation process leads the user to > confusion. > > julia > > > > > This could be a typical workflow: > > > > cd some-ocaml-proj > > opam install # Switches compiler if necessary and installs and locally > > caches package dependencies > > opam build > > opam run # Automatically builds if necessary > > opam test # Ditto > > opam package # Ditto; --upload option can immediately upload to opam > > opam doc # Builds documentation with ocamldoc or whatever > > opam login -u user -p password > > > > Regards, > > > > Yawar > > > > On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 5:15 AM Oliver Bandel > > > wrote: > > Hello, > > > > a while ago it looked like there were not enough build- and > > installation-tools > > for OCaml. I remember some discussions about that. > > > > Now it seems to me that there are a lot of them. > > So, developers can pick the one they know about. > > > > For all these tools there might be good reasons to use them, and > > those > > developers who looked at these tools and choose them for their > > projects, will > > know them well enough. > > > > The situation differs, if one wants to package the written > > software, > > and one needs to know many of those tools, just to compile the > > stuff. > > So, when one just wants to compile and install some software, > > just for that, it would take much effort to learn the different > > build-tools. > > > > So, packaging has become more complicated, even though for the > > developers > > these tools may save time. > > > > It would be nice if people who used one of the many new building > > tools > > could provide a Makefile that allows just to type > > "make" and "make install", instead of expecting everyone who > > wants to compile > > the software to first learn just-another-build-tool. > > > > Also it would be good, to mention early, which installation > > tools (make-dependencies) > > are in use, and too mention needed packages (opam or others) to > > just build the stuff. > > > > Thanks and regards, > > Oliver Bandel > > > > -- > > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > > https://inbox.ocaml.org/caml-list > > Forum: https://discuss.ocaml.org/ > > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > > > > > > > > -- > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > https://inbox.ocaml.org/caml-list > Forum: https://discuss.ocaml.org/ > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs -- Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list https://inbox.ocaml.org/caml-list Forum: https://discuss.ocaml.org/ Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs --000000000000880e0d057b947cfd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Julia, I agree that we need to simplify the life of the= user. But that's the developer's job, not the language toolchain. = Users should not need to know or care about OCaml (ideally), they should do= wnload and run binary packages or install them through their operating syst= em package manager.

Since it's not possible for many= projects to provide all possible system binaries to users, the fallback sh= ould be for the user to build the package with clear instructions that they= 'll need to install opam and then `opam=C2=A0build` (e.g.).
<= br>
Regards,

Yawar

On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 11:59 AM Juli= a Lawall <julia.lawall@lip6.fr> wrote:


On Mon, 26 Nov 2018, Yawar Amin wrote:

> If anyone would like to chime in and say that OCaml build and packagin= g
> system is not that complicated, I would recommend first looking
> at=C2=A0https://github.com/rizo/awesome= -ocaml#package-management .=C2=A0IMHO we need
> to seriously look at consolidating efforts around OPAM for package
> management, packaging, building, testing and running. All the serious<= br> > language-specific package managers do it, it's a proven strategy a= nd it
> simplifies life for the developer.

I find it odd that simplifying the life of the developer is the highest
priority.=C2=A0 Doesn't one want to simplify the life of the user?=C2= =A0 Ideally the
user who has never touched OCaml before in his life?

As a simple example, the web page for installing OCaml says that the
recommended way to install ocaml is to install opam.=C2=A0 There is a link = to a
page explaining how to install opam.=C2=A0 How should anyone even have
confidence that they will end up with OCaml after following those
instructions?=C2=A0 Even step 1 of the installation process leads the user = to
confusion.

julia

>
> This could be a typical workflow:
>
> cd some-ocaml-proj
> opam=C2=A0install # Switches compiler if necessary and installs and lo= cally
> caches package dependencies
> opam=C2=A0build
> opam=C2=A0run # Automatically builds if necessary
> opam=C2=A0test # Ditto
> opam=C2=A0package # Ditto; --upload option can immediately upload to o= pam
> opam=C2=A0doc # Builds documentation with ocamldoc=C2=A0or whatever
> opam=C2=A0login -u user -p password
>
> Regards,
>
> Yawar
>
> On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 5:15 AM Oliver Bandel <oliver@first.in-berlin.de>= ;
> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hello,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a while ago it looked like there were not en= ough build- and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0installation-tools
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for OCaml. I remember some discussions about= that.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Now it seems to me that there are a lot of t= hem.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So, developers can pick the one they know ab= out.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For all these tools there might be good reas= ons to use them, and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0those
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0developers who looked at these tools and cho= ose them for their
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0projects, will
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0know them well enough.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The situation differs, if one wants to packa= ge the written
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0software,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and one needs to know many of those tools, j= ust to compile the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stuff.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So, when one just wants to compile and insta= ll some software,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0just for that, it would take much effort to = learn the different
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0build-tools.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So, packaging has become more complicated, e= ven though for the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0developers
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0these tools may save time.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It would be nice if people who used one of t= he many new building
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tools
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0could provide a Makefile that allows just to= type
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"make" and "make install"= ;, instead of expecting everyone who
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0wants to compile
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the software to first learn just-another-bui= ld-tool.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Also it would be good, to mention early, whi= ch installation
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tools (make-dependencies)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0are in use, and too mention needed packages = (opam or others) to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0just build the stuff.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks and regards,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 Oliver Bandel
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Caml-list mailing list.=C2=A0 Subscription m= anagement and archives:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://sympa.inria.fr/symp= a/arc/caml-list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://inbox.ocaml.org/caml-list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Forum: https://discuss.ocaml.org/
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/b= in/caml-bugs
>
>
>

--
Caml-list mailing list.=C2=A0 Subscription management and archives:
https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list htt= ps://inbox.ocaml.org/caml-list
Forum: https://discuss.ocaml.org/
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs
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