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From: Yawar Amin <yawar.amin@gmail.com>
To: Julia Lawall <julia.lawall@lip6.fr>
Cc: oliver@first.in-berlin.de, Ocaml Mailing List <caml-list@inria.fr>
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Build-/Installation-Tools - not enogh of them?
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 16:19:34 -0500
Message-ID: <CAJbYVJL20mvedMoS6PgL5ZNBTL27T9Fgdv9f5ZpQzA1U_qCckQ@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.1811262150500.2373@hadrien>

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Yes, opam should be easy to install. And in my experience it is; the
process usually goes as described in http://ocaml.org/docs/install.html#OPAM
(install with your system package manager). After that you should be a
couple of commands away from a working compiler.

Realistically, today, system ocaml compiler + make is a corner case in
OCaml development/distribution and shouldn't take precedence over a
standardized developer workflow with opam.

Regards,

Yawar



On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 3:54 PM Julia Lawall <julia.lawall@lip6.fr> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2018, Yawar Amin wrote:
>
> > But you still need an OCaml compiler, right? Are you not using opam to
> get
> > it? If you are, you already have opam. If you're not ... you will have a
> > tougher time than you need to :-) opam is the recommended installation
> > method by the OCaml team: http://ocaml.org/docs/install.html
>
> Personally, I was in the end forced to install opam.  But I don't want to
> force my users to install it (to figure out how to get it to work, I had
> to contact a member of Gallium - and my users don't have that
> opportunity).  I would prefer that they can just use the ocaml that comes
> with their system package manager.
>
> Since opam is the recommended method of installation, couldn't there at
> least be provided understandable instructions?  That really seems like a
> tougher time than what is necessary.
>
> julia
>
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Yawar
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 3:34 PM Julia Lawall <julia.lawall@lip6.fr>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >       On Mon, 26 Nov 2018, Yawar Amin wrote:
> >
> >       > Hi Julia, I agree that we need to simplify the life of the
> >       user. But that's
> >       > the developer's job, not the language toolchain. Users should
> >       not need to
> >       > know or care about OCaml (ideally), they should download and
> >       run binary
> >       > packages or install them through their operating system
> >       package manager.
> >       > Since it's not possible for many projects to provide all
> >       possible system
> >       > binaries to users, the fallback should be for the user to
> >       build the package
> >       > with clear instructions that they'll need to install opam and
> >       then
> >       > `opam build` (e.g.).
> >
> >       Like the original poster, I would very much prefer something
> >       based on
> >       make.
> >
> >       julia
> >
> >       >
> >       > Regards,
> >       >
> >       > Yawar
> >       >
> >       > On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 11:59 AM Julia Lawall
> >       <julia.lawall@lip6.fr> wrote:
> >       >
> >       >
> >       >       On Mon, 26 Nov 2018, Yawar Amin wrote:
> >       >
> >       >       > If anyone would like to chime in and say that OCaml
> >       build and
> >       >       packaging
> >       >       > system is not that complicated, I would recommend
> >       first
> >       >       looking
> >       >       >
> >       at https://github.com/rizo/awesome-ocaml#package-management
> >       >       . IMHO we need
> >       >       > to seriously look at consolidating efforts around OPAM
> >       for
> >       >       package
> >       >       > management, packaging, building, testing and running.
> >       All the
> >       >       serious
> >       >       > language-specific package managers do it, it's a
> >       proven
> >       >       strategy and it
> >       >       > simplifies life for the developer.
> >       >
> >       >       I find it odd that simplifying the life of the developer
> >       is the
> >       >       highest
> >       >       priority.  Doesn't one want to simplify the life of the
> >       user?
> >       >       Ideally the
> >       >       user who has never touched OCaml before in his life?
> >       >
> >       >       As a simple example, the web page for installing OCaml
> >       says that
> >       >       the
> >       >       recommended way to install ocaml is to install opam.
> >       There is a
> >       >       link to a
> >       >       page explaining how to install opam.  How should anyone
> >       even
> >       >       have
> >       >       confidence that they will end up with OCaml after
> >       following
> >       >       those
> >       >       instructions?  Even step 1 of the installation process
> >       leads the
> >       >       user to
> >       >       confusion.
> >       >
> >       >       julia
> >       >
> >       >       >
> >       >       > This could be a typical workflow:
> >       >       >
> >       >       > cd some-ocaml-proj
> >       >       > opam install # Switches compiler if necessary and
> >       installs and
> >       >       locally
> >       >       > caches package dependencies
> >       >       > opam build
> >       >       > opam run # Automatically builds if necessary
> >       >       > opam test # Ditto
> >       >       > opam package # Ditto; --upload option can immediately
> >       upload
> >       >       to opam
> >       >       > opam doc # Builds documentation with ocamldoc or
> >       whatever
> >       >       > opam login -u user -p password
> >       >       >
> >       >       > Regards,
> >       >       >
> >       >       > Yawar
> >       >       >
> >       >       > On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 5:15 AM Oliver Bandel
> >       >       <oliver@first.in-berlin.de>
> >       >       > wrote:
> >       >       >       Hello,
> >       >       >
> >       >       >       a while ago it looked like there were not enough
> >       build-
> >       >       and
> >       >       >       installation-tools
> >       >       >       for OCaml. I remember some discussions about
> >       that.
> >       >       >
> >       >       >       Now it seems to me that there are a lot of them.
> >       >       >       So, developers can pick the one they know about.
> >       >       >
> >       >       >       For all these tools there might be good reasons
> >       to use
> >       >       them, and
> >       >       >       those
> >       >       >       developers who looked at these tools and choose
> >       them for
> >       >       their
> >       >       >       projects, will
> >       >       >       know them well enough.
> >       >       >
> >       >       >       The situation differs, if one wants to package
> >       the
> >       >       written
> >       >       >       software,
> >       >       >       and one needs to know many of those tools, just
> >       to
> >       >       compile the
> >       >       >       stuff.
> >       >       >       So, when one just wants to compile and install
> >       some
> >       >       software,
> >       >       >       just for that, it would take much effort to
> >       learn the
> >       >       different
> >       >       >       build-tools.
> >       >       >
> >       >       >       So, packaging has become more complicated, even
> >       though
> >       >       for the
> >       >       >       developers
> >       >       >       these tools may save time.
> >       >       >
> >       >       >       It would be nice if people who used one of the
> >       many new
> >       >       building
> >       >       >       tools
> >       >       >       could provide a Makefile that allows just to
> >       type
> >       >       >       "make" and "make install", instead of expecting
> >       everyone
> >       >       who
> >       >       >       wants to compile
> >       >       >       the software to first learn
> >       just-another-build-tool.
> >       >       >
> >       >       >       Also it would be good, to mention early, which
> >       >       installation
> >       >       >       tools (make-dependencies)
> >       >       >       are in use, and too mention needed packages
> >       (opam or
> >       >       others) to
> >       >       >       just build the stuff.
> >       >       >
> >       >       >       Thanks and regards,
> >       >       >         Oliver Bandel
> >       >       >
> >       >       >       --
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> >       >       >
> >       >       >
> >       >
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  reply index

Thread overview: 70+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2018-11-26 10:14 Oliver Bandel
2018-11-26 16:41 ` Yawar Amin
2018-11-26 16:57   ` Julia Lawall
2018-11-26 17:15     ` Yawar Amin
2018-11-26 20:33       ` Julia Lawall
2018-11-26 20:47         ` Yawar Amin
2018-11-26 20:54           ` Julia Lawall
2018-11-26 21:19             ` Yawar Amin [this message]
2018-11-26 21:29               ` Julia Lawall
2018-11-26 22:16                 ` SP
2018-11-27  5:24                   ` Malcolm Matalka
2018-11-28  0:20                     ` SP
2018-11-27  6:11                   ` Julia Lawall
2018-11-27  8:45                     ` SF Markus Elfring
2018-11-28  0:04                     ` SP
2018-11-27  9:27                 ` SF Markus Elfring
2018-11-27 10:08                   ` Julia Lawall
2018-11-27 10:28                     ` [Caml-list] Build-/Installation-Tools - not enough " SF Markus Elfring
2018-11-27 10:34                       ` Julia Lawall
2018-11-27 11:05                         ` Jean-Francois Monin
2018-11-27 11:00                           ` Kakadu
2018-11-27 13:18                             ` Malcolm Matalka
2018-11-28  1:52                               ` Francois Berenger
2018-11-28 15:21                             ` Ian Zimmerman
2018-11-27 13:07                     ` [Caml-list] Build-/Installation-Tools - not enogh " Jean-Marc Alliot
2018-12-06 12:21               ` Richard W.M. Jones
2018-12-06 16:10                 ` Yawar Amin
2018-12-06 20:18                   ` Richard W.M. Jones
2018-12-07  7:31                     ` Daniel Bünzli
2018-12-07  7:44                       ` [Caml-list] What happened to the 'ancient' library for OCaml? Francois Berenger
2018-12-07  8:24                         ` Richard W.M. Jones
2018-12-07  8:26                       ` [Caml-list] Build-/Installation-Tools - not enogh of them? Richard W.M. Jones
2018-12-07  9:01                         ` Daniel Bünzli
2018-12-07 13:22                       ` Stéphane Glondu
2018-12-08  0:58                         ` Daniel Bünzli
2018-12-13 23:45                           ` SP
2018-12-11  2:47                         ` Francois Berenger
2018-12-07 13:12                     ` Malcolm Matalka
2018-11-27 14:32             ` Anil Madhavapeddy
2018-11-27 14:35     ` Gerd Stolpmann
2018-11-30 15:23   ` Louis Gesbert
2018-11-26 22:44 ` Jaap Boender
2018-11-26 22:55   ` Simon Cruanes
2018-11-27 13:29     ` Oliver Bandel
2018-11-27 13:45       ` [Caml-list] Build-/Installation tools - not enough " SF Markus Elfring
2018-11-27 15:06       ` [Caml-list] Build-/Installation-Tools - not enogh " Simon Cruanes
2018-11-27 15:49         ` Oliver Bandel
2018-11-27 16:27           ` Daniel Bünzli
2018-11-27 17:46             ` Jaap Boender
2018-11-28 11:47               ` Jeremie Dimino
2018-12-01 15:12                 ` [Caml-list] How to start with the curren toolset? Hendrik Boom
2018-12-01 16:56                   ` Ian Zimmerman
2018-12-02 15:27                   ` Daniel Bünzli
2018-12-02 23:36                     ` David Allsopp
2018-12-03  2:19                     ` [Caml-list] let's give a try at opam-bundle Francois Berenger
2018-12-02 17:44                   ` [Caml-list] confusing message in opam installer Hendrik Boom
2018-12-02 17:50                     ` Julia Lawall
2018-12-05 19:07                       ` Raja Boujbel - OCamlPro
2018-11-27 16:27           ` [Caml-list] Build-/Installation tools - not enough of them? SF Markus Elfring
2018-11-27 17:09           ` [Caml-list] Build-/Installation-Tools - not enogh " Markus Mottl
2018-11-30 12:41             ` [Caml-list] <DKIM> " Vu Ngoc San
2018-12-07 15:19             ` [Caml-list] " oliver
2018-11-27 16:52       ` Hendrik Boom
2018-11-27 14:11     ` Jaap Boender
2018-11-27  2:33   ` Francois Berenger
2018-11-27 13:31     ` Oliver Bandel
2018-11-27 13:40 ` John F Carr
2018-11-30 16:31   ` Louis Gesbert
2018-12-01  5:01     ` Louis Roché
2018-12-03  0:16     ` Edwin Török

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