Maybe it's just the name "opam-devel" that is sub-optimal. If it is for users and developers, why not just call it "opam@lists.ocaml.org". If the "devel" traffic ever gets too high, then later "opam-devel@lists.ocaml.org" can be created, leaving the shorter "opam@lists.ocaml.org" for users. On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 6:48 AM, Roberto Di Cosmo wrote: > Hi Amir, > just to sum up my feeling, let me say that a mailing > list, albeit old-fashioned, is still a good compromise > between cost and benefits, and has the great advantage > to keep all relevant content in one place, and not > depend on pagerank magic and google cache to summon it up > and make it persistent... > > But I agree we should bring this off the list (and by the way, > my apologies for the OCaml list subscribers for wasting > bandwidth :-))... > > -- > Roberto > > > On Thu, Mar 07, 2013 at 11:33:56AM +0000, Amir Chaudhry wrote: > > > > On 7 Mar 2013, at 07:22, Roberto Di Cosmo wrote: > > > > > I think that opam fills a major need of OCaml users: > > > even if it is still young, needs polishing and will > > > surely evolve quickly, it already provides a very > > > valuable tool. > > > > > > But tools are useless without a user community, and > > > users need a place to discuss, exchange ideas, ask > > > for help, share tips and tricks, without fear of > > > asking silly questions. > > > > I agree! > > > > > Hundreds of successful free software projects use a > > > -devel mailing list for developer discussions, and a > > > -users mailing list for user exchanges. > > > > Ok, but is this a _necessary_ requirement to being successful? That's > not quite what you state but you seem to support that suggestion. I > completely understand the usefulness of a -devel list but less so the > -users list (since I'm not power user by any means). > > > > > So I strongly believe we need an opam-users list > > > too (and I actually do not care where the list is > > > hosted, as far as the hosting service is solid, and > > > archives are searchable and backed up). > > > > I'm not against the idea of a -users list but I'm not one of the people > who'd use it (though perhaps I'm misunderstanding the use-case). When I > have any kind of question or confusion about something, my first resort is > to google it. I'd typically look to see if others have had similar issues > and would expect to find things on stack-overflow, blogs and other things > on the web. This is usually sufficient for most of my problems. > > > > The following might help explain my viewpoint. I think of a 'software > community' as a series of concentric circles with creators/maintainers > right in the middle and the random public in the outermost ring. I'd argue > that mailing lists only serve those nearer the centre (to varying degrees). > Information scattered around the web, and well-indexed by search engines, > better serves those nearer the outer rings (where I'd put myself). > > > > While I completely and whole-heartedly agree with your point about > needing a vibrant user community, I'm essentially (1) questioning what that > actually looks like and (2) trying to decouple it from mailing-lists. I'm > basically arguing that the needs once served by user lists can largely be > met by other means. > > > > I don't have particularly strong opinions on this (other than > " should be able to get you to the answer", > wherever that is). I merely wanted to present a counterpoint to what I > felt could be taken as 'mailing list -> community'. If you, or others, > have more information or resources on community-building in open-source > projects I'd be very keen to learn more (though perhaps we should do that > off the main list). > > > > Best wishes, > > Amir > > > > > > > > -- > > > Roberto > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 07, 2013 at 12:19:24AM +0100, Fabrice Le Fessant wrote: > > >> Finally, there will be only one mailing-list devoted to OPAM (for > > >> both users and developers discussions), it is now > > >> opam-devel@lists.ocaml.org, and you can subscribe on this page: > > >> > > >> http://lists.ocaml.org/listinfo/opam-devel > > >> > > >> --Fabrice > > >> > > >> On 03/06/2013 11:51 PM, Fabrice Le Fessant wrote: > > >>> Hi, > > >>> > > >>> I was proposed to either move these two mailing-lists to > > >>> http://lists.ocaml.org/, to improve their visibility, or to have > them > > >>> merged into the more generic platform@lists.ocaml.org mailing-list. > > >>> > > >>> I will send a new mail when we have reached a consensus on the best > > >>> solution, but in the meantime, don't subscribe to them as I won't be > > >>> able to easily move subscriptions from one system to the other one. > > >>> > > >>> --Fabrice > > >>> > > >>> On 03/06/2013 09:46 PM, Fabrice Le Fessant wrote: > > >>>> Hi, > > >>>> > > >>>> I just created two mailing-lists for questions and specific > > >>>> discussions about OPAM, "opam-users@inria.fr" for discussions > about how > > >>>> to use OPAM, and "opam-devel@inria.fr" for discussions about the > code of > > >>>> OPAM (for developers only, or interactions with them). > > >>>> > > >>>> --Fabrice > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > > >> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > > >> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > > >> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Roberto Di Cosmo > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Professeur En delegation a l'INRIA > > > PPS E-mail: roberto@dicosmo.org > > > Universite Paris Diderot WWW : http://www.dicosmo.org > > > Case 7014 Tel : ++33-(0)1-57 27 92 20 > > > 5, Rue Thomas Mann > > > F-75205 Paris Cedex 13 Identica: http://identi.ca/rdicosmo > > > FRANCE. Twitter: http://twitter.com/rdicosmo > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Attachments: > > > MIME accepted, Word deprecated > > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Office location: > > > > > > Bureau 320 (3rd floor) > > > Batiment Sophie Germain > > > Avenue de France > > > Metro Bibliotheque Francois Mitterrand, ligne 14/RER C > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > > GPG fingerprint 2931 20CE 3A5A 5390 98EC 8BFC FCCA C3BE 39CB 12D3 > > > > > > -- > > > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > > > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > > > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > > > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > > > > -- > Roberto Di Cosmo > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Professeur En delegation a l'INRIA > PPS E-mail: roberto@dicosmo.org > Universite Paris Diderot WWW : http://www.dicosmo.org > Case 7014 Tel : ++33-(0)1-57 27 92 20 > 5, Rue Thomas Mann > F-75205 Paris Cedex 13 Identica: http://identi.ca/rdicosmo > FRANCE. Twitter: http://twitter.com/rdicosmo > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Attachments: > MIME accepted, Word deprecated > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Office location: > > Bureau 320 (3rd floor) > Batiment Sophie Germain > Avenue de France > Metro Bibliotheque Francois Mitterrand, ligne 14/RER C > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > GPG fingerprint 2931 20CE 3A5A 5390 98EC 8BFC FCCA C3BE 39CB 12D3 > > -- > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >