From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Original-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Delivered-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104]) by sympa.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C85C7F30D; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 23:08:51 +0100 (CET) Received-SPF: None (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of agarwal1975@gmail.com) identity=pra; client-ip=209.85.223.169; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="agarwal1975@gmail.com"; x-sender="agarwal1975@gmail.com"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: Pass (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: domain of agarwal1975@gmail.com designates 209.85.223.169 as permitted sender) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=209.85.223.169; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="agarwal1975@gmail.com"; x-sender="agarwal1975@gmail.com"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible; x-record-type="v=spf1" Received-SPF: None (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of postmaster@mail-ie0-f169.google.com) identity=helo; client-ip=209.85.223.169; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="agarwal1975@gmail.com"; x-sender="postmaster@mail-ie0-f169.google.com"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Al8CAGMPOVHRVd+pkWdsb2JhbABDhVSsfolYAYgsgVwIFg4BAQEBCQkNBxIqgiwBAQEDAQEBASQZARQHEgsBAwELBgULDQwBISIBBAEMAQUBChIGEwkJAgeHZQEDCQYHBZ07jDKCe4RSChknAwpZiE8BBQyNTwGBKwEEB4NAA4hsiyKCPYEeij6DMxYphEqBVA X-IPAS-Result: Al8CAGMPOVHRVd+pkWdsb2JhbABDhVSsfolYAYgsgVwIFg4BAQEBCQkNBxIqgiwBAQEDAQEBASQZARQHEgsBAwELBgULDQwBISIBBAEMAQUBChIGEwkJAgeHZQEDCQYHBZ07jDKCe4RSChknAwpZiE8BBQyNTwGBKwEEB4NAA4hsiyKCPYEeij6DMxYphEqBVA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,804,1355094000"; d="scan'208";a="4602548" Received: from mail-ie0-f169.google.com ([209.85.223.169]) by mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-SHA; 07 Mar 2013 23:08:49 +0100 Received: by mail-ie0-f169.google.com with SMTP id 13so1251031iea.14 for ; Thu, 07 Mar 2013 14:08:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=5pM6mbvp1MkBO9sKiXterVU0aisog8At8gwnwYjJTPM=; b=pg6eCm+4Iww1zktH1o8RLl6oRu8ZNZGa7tKQ8Cb0qXpuUspPlRtQgdNqXCsv5suOOi CaEmAqMFZxkUWg8+oPme0qy2N1tRdjpxiPuQyk0DgSmOHXI6pZn3KOWp9PnJy4sVZHKm NNH3Xrw99vmjGR8j9SwA87LUURyPGhDIRb1dVs9PmyIAK94sUz684YudkTn/Ho2EMUIw mtdwxf1hNyB1a+mKNo1d5WnL3lmZ5NfX+iY/NXv8ztYHkoXLGRfX4ZtX44I8li4FdGld iBAPFoVxVudUWaKvLcDkC292VO/8mfVj19fwAsYAubPeN0iasJP/JQO0Vcw0dVNa09sM AbKw== X-Received: by 10.43.91.5 with SMTP id bk5mr35249348icc.20.1362694127808; Thu, 07 Mar 2013 14:08:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.64.77.133 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 14:08:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20130307114854.GB7281@voyager> References: <5137AB10.1020206@inria.fr> <5137C870.1010009@inria.fr> <5137CEFC.5090402@inria.fr> <20130307072202.GB26518@voyager> <20130307114854.GB7281@voyager> From: Ashish Agarwal Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 17:08:27 -0500 Message-ID: To: Roberto Di Cosmo Cc: Amir Chaudhry , Fabrice Le Fessant , caml-list@inria.fr, Early Subscribers , opam-devel@lists.ocaml.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec518692c6d09f704d75cf362 Subject: Re: [Caml-list] OPAM mailing-lists ERRATUM --bcaec518692c6d09f704d75cf362 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Maybe it's just the name "opam-devel" that is sub-optimal. If it is for users and developers, why not just call it "opam@lists.ocaml.org". If the "devel" traffic ever gets too high, then later "opam-devel@lists.ocaml.org" can be created, leaving the shorter "opam@lists.ocaml.org" for users. On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 6:48 AM, Roberto Di Cosmo wrote: > Hi Amir, > just to sum up my feeling, let me say that a mailing > list, albeit old-fashioned, is still a good compromise > between cost and benefits, and has the great advantage > to keep all relevant content in one place, and not > depend on pagerank magic and google cache to summon it up > and make it persistent... > > But I agree we should bring this off the list (and by the way, > my apologies for the OCaml list subscribers for wasting > bandwidth :-))... > > -- > Roberto > > > On Thu, Mar 07, 2013 at 11:33:56AM +0000, Amir Chaudhry wrote: > > > > On 7 Mar 2013, at 07:22, Roberto Di Cosmo wrote: > > > > > I think that opam fills a major need of OCaml users: > > > even if it is still young, needs polishing and will > > > surely evolve quickly, it already provides a very > > > valuable tool. > > > > > > But tools are useless without a user community, and > > > users need a place to discuss, exchange ideas, ask > > > for help, share tips and tricks, without fear of > > > asking silly questions. > > > > I agree! > > > > > Hundreds of successful free software projects use a > > > -devel mailing list for developer discussions, and a > > > -users mailing list for user exchanges. > > > > Ok, but is this a _necessary_ requirement to being successful? That's > not quite what you state but you seem to support that suggestion. I > completely understand the usefulness of a -devel list but less so the > -users list (since I'm not power user by any means). > > > > > So I strongly believe we need an opam-users list > > > too (and I actually do not care where the list is > > > hosted, as far as the hosting service is solid, and > > > archives are searchable and backed up). > > > > I'm not against the idea of a -users list but I'm not one of the people > who'd use it (though perhaps I'm misunderstanding the use-case). When I > have any kind of question or confusion about something, my first resort is > to google it. I'd typically look to see if others have had similar issues > and would expect to find things on stack-overflow, blogs and other things > on the web. This is usually sufficient for most of my problems. > > > > The following might help explain my viewpoint. I think of a 'software > community' as a series of concentric circles with creators/maintainers > right in the middle and the random public in the outermost ring. I'd argue > that mailing lists only serve those nearer the centre (to varying degrees). > Information scattered around the web, and well-indexed by search engines, > better serves those nearer the outer rings (where I'd put myself). > > > > While I completely and whole-heartedly agree with your point about > needing a vibrant user community, I'm essentially (1) questioning what that > actually looks like and (2) trying to decouple it from mailing-lists. I'm > basically arguing that the needs once served by user lists can largely be > met by other means. > > > > I don't have particularly strong opinions on this (other than > " should be able to get you to the answer", > wherever that is). I merely wanted to present a counterpoint to what I > felt could be taken as 'mailing list -> community'. If you, or others, > have more information or resources on community-building in open-source > projects I'd be very keen to learn more (though perhaps we should do that > off the main list). > > > > Best wishes, > > Amir > > > > > > > > -- > > > Roberto > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 07, 2013 at 12:19:24AM +0100, Fabrice Le Fessant wrote: > > >> Finally, there will be only one mailing-list devoted to OPAM (for > > >> both users and developers discussions), it is now > > >> opam-devel@lists.ocaml.org, and you can subscribe on this page: > > >> > > >> http://lists.ocaml.org/listinfo/opam-devel > > >> > > >> --Fabrice > > >> > > >> On 03/06/2013 11:51 PM, Fabrice Le Fessant wrote: > > >>> Hi, > > >>> > > >>> I was proposed to either move these two mailing-lists to > > >>> http://lists.ocaml.org/, to improve their visibility, or to have > them > > >>> merged into the more generic platform@lists.ocaml.org mailing-list. > > >>> > > >>> I will send a new mail when we have reached a consensus on the best > > >>> solution, but in the meantime, don't subscribe to them as I won't be > > >>> able to easily move subscriptions from one system to the other one. > > >>> > > >>> --Fabrice > > >>> > > >>> On 03/06/2013 09:46 PM, Fabrice Le Fessant wrote: > > >>>> Hi, > > >>>> > > >>>> I just created two mailing-lists for questions and specific > > >>>> discussions about OPAM, "opam-users@inria.fr" for discussions > about how > > >>>> to use OPAM, and "opam-devel@inria.fr" for discussions about the > code of > > >>>> OPAM (for developers only, or interactions with them). > > >>>> > > >>>> --Fabrice > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > > >> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > > >> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > > >> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Roberto Di Cosmo > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Professeur En delegation a l'INRIA > > > PPS E-mail: roberto@dicosmo.org > > > Universite Paris Diderot WWW : http://www.dicosmo.org > > > Case 7014 Tel : ++33-(0)1-57 27 92 20 > > > 5, Rue Thomas Mann > > > F-75205 Paris Cedex 13 Identica: http://identi.ca/rdicosmo > > > FRANCE. Twitter: http://twitter.com/rdicosmo > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Attachments: > > > MIME accepted, Word deprecated > > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Office location: > > > > > > Bureau 320 (3rd floor) > > > Batiment Sophie Germain > > > Avenue de France > > > Metro Bibliotheque Francois Mitterrand, ligne 14/RER C > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > > GPG fingerprint 2931 20CE 3A5A 5390 98EC 8BFC FCCA C3BE 39CB 12D3 > > > > > > -- > > > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > > > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > > > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > > > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > > > > -- > Roberto Di Cosmo > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Professeur En delegation a l'INRIA > PPS E-mail: roberto@dicosmo.org > Universite Paris Diderot WWW : http://www.dicosmo.org > Case 7014 Tel : ++33-(0)1-57 27 92 20 > 5, Rue Thomas Mann > F-75205 Paris Cedex 13 Identica: http://identi.ca/rdicosmo > FRANCE. Twitter: http://twitter.com/rdicosmo > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Attachments: > MIME accepted, Word deprecated > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Office location: > > Bureau 320 (3rd floor) > Batiment Sophie Germain > Avenue de France > Metro Bibliotheque Francois Mitterrand, ligne 14/RER C > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > GPG fingerprint 2931 20CE 3A5A 5390 98EC 8BFC FCCA C3BE 39CB 12D3 > > -- > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > --bcaec518692c6d09f704d75cf362 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe it's just the name "opam-devel" that is sub-optimal. If= it is for users and developers, why not just call it "opam@lists.ocaml.org". If the "devel= " traffic ever gets too high, then later "opam-devel@lists.ocaml.org" can be created,= leaving the shorter "opam@lis= ts.ocaml.org" for users.

On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 6:48 AM, Roberto Di C= osmo <roberto@dicosmo.org> wrote:
Hi Amir,
=A0 =A0just to sum up my feeling, let me say that a mailing
list, albeit old-fashioned, is still a good compromise
between cost and benefits, and has the great advantage
to keep all relevant content in one place, and not
depend on pagerank magic and google cache to summon it up
and make it persistent...

But I agree we should bring this off the list (and by the way,
my apologies for the OCaml list subscribers for wasting
bandwidth :-))...

--
Roberto


On Thu, Mar 07, 2013 at 11:33:56AM +0000, Amir Chaudhry wrote:
>
> On 7 Mar 2013, at 07:22, Roberto Di Cosmo <roberto@dicosmo.org> wrote:
>
> > I think that opam fills a major need of OCaml users:
> > even if it is still young, needs polishing and will
> > surely evolve quickly, it already provides a very
> > valuable tool.
> >
> > But tools are useless without a user community, and
> > users need a place to discuss, exchange ideas, ask
> > for help, share tips and tricks, without fear of
> > asking silly questions.
>
> I agree!
>
> > Hundreds of successful free software projects use a
> > -devel mailing list for developer discussions, and a
> > -users mailing list for user exchanges.
>
> Ok, but is this a _necessary_ requirement to being successful? That= 9;s not quite what you state but you seem to support that suggestion. =A0I = completely understand the usefulness of a -devel list but less so the -user= s list (since I'm not power user by any means).
>
> > So I strongly believe we need an opam-users list
> > too (and I actually do not care where the list is
> > hosted, as far as the hosting service is solid, and
> > archives are searchable and backed up).
>
> I'm not against the idea of a -users list but I'm not one of t= he people who'd use it (though perhaps I'm misunderstanding the use= -case). =A0When I have any kind of question or confusion about something, m= y first resort is to google it. =A0I'd typically look to see if others = have had similar issues and would expect to find things on stack-overflow, = blogs and other things on the web. =A0This is usually sufficient for most o= f my problems.
>
> The following might help explain my viewpoint. I think of a 'softw= are community' as a series of concentric circles with creators/maintain= ers right in the middle and the random public in the outermost ring. =A0I&#= 39;d argue that mailing lists only serve those nearer the centre (to varyin= g degrees). =A0Information scattered around the web, and well-indexed by se= arch engines, better serves those nearer the outer rings (where I'd put= myself).
>
> While I completely and whole-heartedly agree with your point about nee= ding a vibrant user community, I'm essentially (1) questioning what tha= t actually looks like and (2) trying to decouple it from mailing-lists. =A0= I'm basically arguing that the needs once served by user lists can larg= ely be met by other means.
>
> I don't have particularly strong opinions on this (other than &quo= t;<your-favourite-search-engine> should be able to get you to the ans= wer", wherever that is). =A0I merely wanted to present a counterpoint = to what I felt could be taken as 'mailing list -> community'. = =A0If you, or others, have more information or resources on community-build= ing in open-source projects I'd be very keen to learn more (though perh= aps we should do that off the main list).
>
> Best wishes,
> Amir
>
> >
> > --
> > Roberto
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 07, 2013 at 12:19:24AM +0100, Fabrice Le Fessant wrot= e:
> >> Finally, there will be only one mailing-list devoted to OPAM = (for
> >> both users and developers discussions), it is now
> >> opam-devel@list= s.ocaml.org, and you can subscribe on this page:
> >>
> >> http://lists.ocaml.org/listinfo/opam-devel
> >>
> >> --Fabrice
> >>
> >> On 03/06/2013 11:51 PM, Fabrice Le Fessant wrote:
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> =A0I was proposed to either move these two mailing-lists = to
> >>> htt= p://lists.ocaml.org/, to improve their visibility, or to have them
> >>> merged into the more generic platform@lists.ocaml.org mailing-list.
> >>>
> >>> =A0I will send a new mail when we have reached a consensu= s on the best
> >>> solution, but in the meantime, don't subscribe to the= m as I won't be
> >>> able to easily move subscriptions from one system to the = other one.
> >>>
> >>> --Fabrice
> >>>
> >>> On 03/06/2013 09:46 PM, Fabrice Le Fessant wrote:
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> =A0I just created two mailing-lists for questions and= specific
> >>>> discussions about OPAM, "opam-users@inria.fr" for discussions about how
> >>>> to use OPAM, and "opam-devel@inria.fr" for discussions about the code of
> >>>> OPAM (for developers only, or interactions with them)= .
> >>>>
> >>>> --Fabrice
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Caml-list mailing list. =A0Subscription management and archiv= es:
> >> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list
> >> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beg= inners
> >> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Roberto Di Cosmo
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------= -
> > Professeur =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 En delegation a l'INRI= A
> > PPS =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0E-mail: roberto@dicosmo.org
> > Universite Paris Diderot WWW =A0: http://www.dicosmo.org
> > Case 7014 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Tel =A0: ++33-(0)1-57 27= 92 20
> > 5, Rue Thomas Mann
> > F-75205 Paris Cedex 13 =A0 Identica: http://identi.ca/rdicosmo
> > FRANCE. =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Twitter: http://twitter.com/rdicosmo
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------= -
> > Attachments:
> > MIME accepted, Word deprecated
> > =A0 =A0 =A0http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attach= ments.html
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------= -
> > Office location:
> >
> > Bureau 320 (3rd floor)
> > Batiment Sophie Germain
> > Avenue de France
> > Metro Bibliotheque Francois Mitterrand, ligne 14/RER C
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------=
> > GPG fingerprint 2931 20CE 3A5A 5390 98EC 8BFC FCCA C3BE 39CB 12D3=
> >
> > --
> > Caml-list mailing list. =A0Subscription management and archives:<= br> > > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list
> > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginne= rs
> > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs
>

--
Roberto Di Cosmo

------------------------------------------------------------------
Professeur =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 En delegation a l'INRIA
PPS =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0E-mail: roberto@dicosmo.org
Universite Paris Diderot WWW =A0: http://www.dicosmo.org
Case 7014 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Tel =A0: ++33-(0)1-57 27 92 20=
5, Rue Thomas Mann
F-75205 Paris Cedex 13 =A0 Identica: http://identi.ca/rdicosmo
FRANCE. =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Twitter: http://twitter.com/rdicosmo
------------------------------------------------------------------
Attachments:
MIME accepted, Word deprecated
=A0 =A0 =A0 http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.htm= l
------------------------------------------------------------------
Office location:

Bureau 320 (3rd floor)
Batiment Sophie Germain
Avenue de France
Metro Bibliotheque Francois Mitterrand, ligne 14/RER C
-----------------------------------------------------------------
GPG fingerprint 2931 20CE 3A5A 5390 98EC 8BFC FCCA C3BE 39CB 12D3

--
Caml-list mailing list. =A0Subscription management and archives:
ht= tps://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs

--bcaec518692c6d09f704d75cf362--