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d="scan'208,217";a="250007213" Received: from mail-qt0-f177.google.com ([209.85.216.177]) by mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-GCM-SHA256; 03 Jan 2018 20:05:15 +0100 Received: by mail-qt0-f177.google.com with SMTP id e2so3347456qti.0 for ; Wed, 03 Jan 2018 11:05:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xXjmBxi7AX2G2f3gQ31TPGQhnKUX4YLerUT5rnBbMxE=; b=lA18ddMujOy1XEabk01mFhpEJCl0JH9JAjwuVTlhyDjQXVQL3qdQOOhw0Uif3lmI8H nFJeaMqkM++ZJ55pv62jlw+jFE5olekwwd2xV1+bo5vsVqAk79L4URGbalmA2U9w6Uh4 ypz7pdQC1ezYCHVWMSq/yfTMWr4LxervYbfqg+G0KQd6Zgtor5mnfmR4lPQ1VttlovGo YrOkzjnkvKuu3I5mKOQ1kAZ1Wn+WmhPuh5R/atmwO2oxd6o7Xj883uLajYlN+v9K1ldu gpByN/RCWXqfmC7/B6u8BtHmElslTWHqYvyE97yhhbqatLCpFNync6moHHpZ0EzkCeox +73Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xXjmBxi7AX2G2f3gQ31TPGQhnKUX4YLerUT5rnBbMxE=; b=tP5RApjsZRlgS87TgTY+vPp9Hmy59Wp0+RvB1KeXWP7Zc0jIAd81JVuolUA1OMOJLh CyK3hkhIzVwpzACUH4yY91oGIBasCtej6ai7DqN0TbYuL71OURuaiNyzLp9YbtJRmTfj zUxunlpg+sDMnOKapDhDsm+ZN89pMaLbVWT06XSp6SmmPZilIPXXf+5fw0WCdohJesrL Sr2u1EtVOB8vPkAad1qlRrjqhrHNNF/n4+FK0WsjlOL1fLuDzJzvLreuznn0CAEWN9Rp s2WZ6K3b2/sKaJnLRHNg3P93r6bRzSBKx/LKZjvAGy40PweoL0KkD1bK+Gi32TsNDIRe FPVA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mJOTXJX3EsqGe/5qtpuff1rAnRcQmtgJ2mPrSpRt5y+qAbdEjL5 3l1CLPitWxpC+027vfcNJkwAp5FtNfbJ3yaORxI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBouIDhG6aJj+ZaAOVD8Y+ocOsrqQfOkel56WLJExiy2Qs64a8LTeKVEej3X2yC1Q/uSRN0EErQxLyTeiXCPGB2Q= X-Received: by 10.200.14.15 with SMTP id a15mr2836723qti.219.1515006313995; Wed, 03 Jan 2018 11:05:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.12.138.173 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Jan 2018 11:04:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20180103150857.bktw4faavkywm4cw@annexia.org> From: Ashish Agarwal Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 14:04:53 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Boutillier, Pierre" Cc: "Richard W.M. Jones" , "caml-list@inria.fr" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="089e0822ab702da2500561e3e525" Subject: Re: [Caml-list] OCaml reference manual non-free license --089e0822ab702da2500561e3e525 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > The only way a reference manual can be admissible as a (citable) publication is if, once released, it is not editable. I don't think so. A good citation is one that is accessible in the exact form that the published work is based on. For work products that can evolve, one should thus provide a version. In the case of the OCaml manual, this is easy enough since it is maintained in git. Additionally, there is no "requirement" that a citation follow this criteria. On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 11:52 AM, Boutillier, Pierre < Pierre_Boutillier@hms.harvard.edu> wrote: > Hi Richard, Hi list, > > I am not an authoritative voice, I only share what I'm aware in order to > save time. > > Don't hold your breath expecting a relicensing. > > As you've already notice by yourself debian also ships the documentation > as non-free package and everybody is already aware[1] of the drawback a > non-free license has on integration in free distributions... (Coq has the > exact same problem for example) > > The rationale is the following: > Because scientifically research is evaluating through (and therefore sadly > driven by) citation metrics, things built in academic settings have to be > citable. The only way to cite a software (found up to now) is to cite its > reference manual. The only way a reference manual can be admissible as a > (citable) publication is if, once released, it is not editable. > > But, indeed, if it is not editable, it is not free anymore... Here is > where we are stuck and have been for a long time with no escape (so far). > > I am (and I know I'm not the only one) sorry about that. > > Pierre B. > > [1] I didn't manage to dig out links to former discussion on the subject > in the time frame I allocated to this reply but they are some and maybe > someone can find them easier than I do. > > > Le 3 janv. 2018 =C3=A0 16:08, Richard W.M. Jones a = =C3=A9crit : > > > > Hi, this bug was filed: > > > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3D1530647 > > > > I notice that Florian is correct and copies of the reference manual do > > indeed have a non-free license (specifically restrictions on making > > derivative works). > > > > Is this intended? If so we'll have to drop this documentation from > > Fedora which would be a shame. If not, could the work be relicensed > > under a suitable free license? > > > > Rich. > > > > -- > > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > > > -- > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > --089e0822ab702da2500561e3e525 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> The only way a reference manual can be admissibl= e as a (citable) publication is if, once released, it is not editable.

I don't think so. A good citation is one that is a= ccessible in the exact form that the published work is based on. For work p= roducts that can evolve, one should thus provide a version. In the case of = the OCaml manual, this is easy enough since it is maintained in git. Additi= onally, there is no "requirement" that a citation follow this cri= teria.

On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 11:52 AM, Boutillier, Pierre <= Pier= re_Boutillier@hms.harvard.edu> wrote:
Hi Richard, Hi list,

I am not an authoritative voice, I only share what I'm aware in order t= o save time.

Don't hold your breath expecting a relicensing.

As you've already notice by yourself debian also ships the documentatio= n as non-free package and everybody is already aware[1] of the drawback a n= on-free license has on integration in free distributions... (Coq has the ex= act same problem for example)

The rationale is the following:
Because scientifically research is evaluating through (and therefore sadly = driven by) citation metrics, things built in academic settings have to be c= itable. The only way to cite a software (found up to now) is to cite its re= ference manual. The only way a reference manual can be admissible as a (cit= able) publication is if, once released, it is not editable.

But, indeed, if it is not editable, it is not free anymore... Here is where= we are stuck and have been for a long time with no escape (so far).

I am (and I know I'm not the only one) sorry about that.

Pierre B.

[1] I didn't manage to dig out links to former discussion on the subjec= t in the time frame I allocated to this reply but they are some and maybe s= omeone can find them easier than I do.

> Le 3 janv. 2018 =C3=A0 16:08, Richard W.M. Jones <rich@annexia.org> a =C3=A9crit :
>
> Hi, this bug was filed:
>
>=C2=A0 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/sho= w_bug.cgi?id=3D1530647
>
> I notice that Florian is correct and copies of the reference manual do=
> indeed have a non-free license (specifically restrictions on making
> derivative works).
>
> Is this intended?=C2=A0 If so we'll have to drop this documentatio= n from
> Fedora which would be a shame.=C2=A0 If not, could the work be relicen= sed
> under a suitable free license?
>
> Rich.
>
> --
> Caml-list mailing list.=C2=A0 Subscription management and archives:
> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group= /ocaml_beginners
> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs


--
Caml-list mailing list.=C2=A0 Subscription management and archives:
https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners
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