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--94eb2c073de0a49e9f05374ce4cf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 10:32 PM, Yotam Barnoy wrote: > If you go to gitter's home page (https://gitter.im/home#) and choose > create, you should be able to create a room for the ocaml repository. > I see, so it is for the ocaml repo, not the whole ocaml organization. Got it. I suggest you send this request to the infrastructure@lists.ocaml.org mailing list. One of the authorized owners of that repo is more likely to see the request there, rather than in this long thread. My opinion is that your request should be considered but not necessarily approved. The developers of a project have the right to choose the communication channels of the project they manage. Even if it is approved, I doubt most of the ocaml developers will be interested in using this new channel, so you might not have any of them following the discussions that occur on gitter. To be clear, I'm expressing my own opinion and have no authority on the ocaml repo. On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 9:46 AM, Ashish Agarwal > wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 1:02 PM, Yotam Barnoy > wrote: > > > >> Also, could someone with ocaml github permissions start a gitter.im > >> page for OCaml? It should be relatively painless. > > > > > > Can you explain what needs to be done exactly. When I'm logged in, I see > > nothing at gitter.im/ocaml and when I'm logged out I see links for > > ocaml/oasis and ocaml/opam. So something already works. > > > > > > > >> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Mohamed Iguernlala > >> wrote: > >> > Hi there, > >> > > >> > I guess you found inria.fr and not infria.fr :-). If it's the case, > the > >> > first thing you should notice when visiting it is the message: > >> > > >> > "This site is updated infrequently. For up-to-date information, plea= se > >> > visit > >> > the new OCaml website at ocaml.org." > >> > > >> > and on ocaml.org, you'll find a "modern website" with a "more > >> > conventional" > >> > extension. One click later (on the Community > >> > item of the upper menu), you'll get the information you need about > >> > mailing > >> > lists. > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > > >> > - Mohamed. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Le 08/07/2016 17:16, Duane Johnson a =C3=A9crit : > >> > > >> > > >> > On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:40 AM, Gabriel Scherer > >> > > >> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Adoption is interesting but, as Tony Hoare put it, we are not fashi= on > >> >> designers. The best thing I can think of is to communicate more and > >> >> better, > >> >> talk about the cool world that is being done in the OCaml > communities, > >> >> and > >> >> importantly talking about it outside it. Supporting software projec= ts > >> >> that > >> >> have a potential for impact outside the OCaml community is also key > -- > >> >> Coq, > >> >> MLdonkey, Coccinelle, Flow, the SLAM static verifier toolkit, just = to > >> >> name a > >> >> few. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > As someone who just signed up to this mailing list, may I offer some > >> > observations? > >> > > >> > - my first impression of OCaml community was through > reddit.com/r/ocaml. > >> > As > >> > a reddit user, I would rank /r/ocaml as "barely alive but stable"--in > >> > other > >> > words, the upvotes-per-thread there are in the single digits and low > >> > double-digits showing people exist there, but it is not a thriving > >> > community. > >> > - next, I tried to find a google group. It was hard to find any > >> > substantial > >> > and popular OCaml groups there. There was an OCaml aggregation list, > but > >> > it > >> > wasn't clear that it was a discussion group. My first thought was, Is > >> > there > >> > no mailing list? I searched around and found the infria.fr domain. > To an > >> > outsider, this lends no credibility or brand-name familiarity. Not > only > >> > is > >> > the web domain unfamiliar, but the website does not look welcoming--= it > >> > appears to be out of the 90s. > >> > - signing up for a mailing list is slow and unrewarding. I'd much > rather > >> > sign up for a more modern community technology like reddit, facebook, > >> > slack, > >> > or google groups. > >> > - I clicked "Info" to get more info about the mailing list on > infria.fr > >> > and > >> > it says "Private information" inside a white bubble. Ok... > >> > - I looked for a chat community, and IRC is the only option. This > >> > signals > >> > "old tech community" to me. Slack or gitter.im is a more inclusive, > >> > modern > >> > community. In order to participate in IRC, one must always be > connected. > >> > This makes it more difficult for outsiders to come in and feel like > they > >> > can > >> > 'catch up' on the conversation (Yes, I know there are chat logs, but > >> > this > >> > feature is not an integrated part of IRC). > >> > > >> > In summary, all of the signals that I usually depend on to evaluate > the > >> > community around a technology are either weak or give me the > impression > >> > of > >> > "old and barely stable". New, exciting technologies that I've seen > tend > >> > to > >> > embrace and tap in to existing community platforms (slack, reddit, > >> > github, > >> > gitbook, google groups) in order to leverage the platform and amplify > >> > their > >> > advertising signal. > >> > > >> > Duane Johnson > >> > > >> > > >> > On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:40 AM, Gabriel Scherer > >> > > >> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > Do others on this list feel the ramp to OCaml adoption is smoother > >> >> > than > >> >> > my impression suggests? > >> >> > >> >> I can't speak for "adoption", but I think that you have been very > kind > >> >> as > >> >> far as user experience is concerned, that it is probably worse than > you > >> >> suggest. > >> >> > >> >> We discussed some of these issues a few month ago in a thread > launched > >> >> by > >> >> Hendrik Bloom: > >> >> > >> >> Is OCaml for experienced beginners? > >> >> Hendrik Bloom, December 2015 > >> >> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list/2015-12/msg00077.html > >> >> > >> >> I gave a few remarks on the evolution of the OCaml ecosystem on the > >> >> period > >> >> I know of that you may be interested in: > >> >> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list/2015-12/msg00110.html > >> >> > >> >> I think "adoption" and "usability" are interlinked but separate > issues. > >> >> > >> >> Getting adoption distributes the number of people interesting in > >> >> helping > >> >> on usability, so it tends to improve usability, but I tend to think > >> >> that the > >> >> second is actually the more interesting, important goal to aim at. > >> >> > >> >> Adoption is interesting but, as Tony Hoare put it, we are not fashi= on > >> >> designers. The best thing I can think of is to communicate more and > >> >> better, > >> >> talk about the cool world that is being done in the OCaml > communities, > >> >> and > >> >> importantly talking about it outside it. Supporting software projec= ts > >> >> that > >> >> have a potential for impact outside the OCaml community is also key > -- > >> >> Coq, > >> >> MLdonkey, Coccinelle, Flow, the SLAM static verifier toolkit, just = to > >> >> name a > >> >> few. > >> >> > >> >> Regarding usability, I think the tooling ecosystem is too complex > >> >> today. > >> >> If I wanted to bootstrap a beginner to do stuff I would have to tell > >> >> them > >> >> about the OCaml compiler tools (ocamlc, ocamlopt), ocamlfind, a bui= ld > >> >> system > >> >> (omake or ocamlbuild for example), oasis, Merlin, opam, and get them > to > >> >> learn either Vim or Emacs. That's a bit too much and even with the > >> >> plethora > >> >> of tools there are problems we haven't really solved yet -- for > >> >> example, how > >> >> to avoid module name conflicts. > >> >> I think a lot more work is required, both incremental improvements > and > >> >> a > >> >> few grand redesigns, before we reach a comfortable ecosystem where > >> >> starting > >> >> an OCaml project feels like a breeze. That's what I would aim at. > >> >> > >> >>> Who here is excited about making OCaml approachable to newcomers? > >> >>> Where > >> >>> is the main ongoing work on this? Who are the main leaders from th= is > >> >>> perspective? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> This is an interesting question. To my knowledge, no one is > >> >> specifically > >> >> focused on this mightily important question. But it's fair to assume > >> >> that we > >> >> have no "usability team" today, it's more a distributed collection = of > >> >> efforts going in all directions from various people, for example: > >> >> > >> >> - Gerd Stolpmann did a lot of work on the early language tooling, > >> >> notably > >> >> GODI (an earlier ocaml-specific package manager) and ocamlfind, and > >> >> also > >> >> kept very high documentation standards that are an example to follo= w. > >> >> > >> >> - Sylvain le Gall's work on OASIS helps a lot of developers do their > >> >> packaging by encapsulating, in particular, the knowledge of what to > >> >> install > >> >> where (not a simple question). > >> >> > >> >> - The OPAM team as a whole, as well as the maintainers of the public > >> >> opam > >> >> repository, have done tremendous work making OCaml software easy to > >> >> install > >> >> and deploy. (Windows is still of a sore point, but there is progress > in > >> >> that > >> >> area. It's a distinct possibility that the OCaml ecosystem will > become > >> >> nice > >> >> to use on Windows before Windows disappears or gets a real Unix > >> >> userland.) > >> >> > >> >> I would personally be interested in helping someone with a holistic > >> >> approach to usability devote as much of their time as they can. (I > >> >> think > >> >> there are some sources of funding that could be considered, but > nothing > >> >> very > >> >> certain; from a crowd-funding perspective I would be glad to pay = =E2=82=AC30 > a > >> >> month > >> >> to fund such a position.) I think this is a difficult position > because > >> >> there > >> >> is a lot of thankless grunt work implied, and arguably it's not a > very > >> >> career-advancing move. > >> >> > >> >> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:57 AM, Dean Thompson > >> >> > >> >> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> Thank you, everyone, for the responses and discussion. If there is > >> >>> interest, I would still love to hear more thoughts about whether > there > >> >>> is a > >> >>> roadmap (either de facto from the community, or explicit from > leaders > >> >>> of the > >> >>> community) to foster broader adoption. > >> >>> > >> >>> I see that many organizations are making immense contributions to > the > >> >>> community: from language and ecosystem enhancements, to Real World > >> >>> OCaml, to > >> >>> the OCaml Users and Developers Workshop. Technical progress is > rapid. > >> >>> But so > >> >>> far, to me, these wonderful contributions feel more like giving ba= ck > >> >>> to the > >> >>> community for us to make what we can of them, rather than anyone= =E2=80=99s > >> >>> systematic effort to streamline broader uptake of OCaml. > >> >>> > >> >>> These are the impressions of a newcomer. If there is interest, I > would > >> >>> love to hear more seasoned viewpoints. > >> >>> > >> >>> Dean > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> -- > >> >>> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > >> >>> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > >> >>> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > >> >>> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > >> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > >> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > >> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > > > > > --94eb2c073de0a49e9f05374ce4cf Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On S= at, Jul 9, 2016 at 10:32 PM, Yotam Barnoy <yotambarnoy@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
If you go to gitter's home page (<= a href=3D"https://gitter.im/home#" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">htt= ps://gitter.im/home#) and choose
create, you should be able to create a room for the ocaml repository.

I see, so it is for the ocaml repo, not the = whole ocaml organization. Got it. I suggest you send this request to the=C2= =A0infrastructure@lists.o= caml.org mailing list. One of the authorized owners of that repo is mor= e likely to see the request there, rather than in this long thread.

My opinion is that your request should be considered but = not necessarily approved. The developers of a project have the right to cho= ose the communication channels of the project they manage. Even if it is ap= proved, I doubt most of the ocaml developers will be interested in using th= is new channel, so you might not have any of them following the discussions= that occur on gitter. To be clear, I'm expressing my own opinion and h= ave no authority on the ocaml repo.


On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 9:46 AM, Ashish Agarwal <agarwal1975@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 1:02 P= M, Yotam Barnoy <yotambarnoy@gm= ail.com> wrote:
>
>> Also, could someone with ocaml github permissions start a gitter.im
>> page for OCaml? It should be relatively painless.
>
>
> Can you explain what needs to be done exactly. When I'm logged in,= I see
> nothing at gitter.im/ocaml and when I'm logged out I see links fo= r
> ocaml/oasis and ocaml/opam. So something already works.
>
>
>
>> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Mohamed Iguernlala
>> <iguer.auto@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Hi there,
>> >
>> > I guess you found inria.fr and not infria.fr :-). If it's the case, = the
>> > first thing you should notice when visiting it is the message= :
>> >
>> > "This site is updated infrequently. For up-to-date infor= mation, please
>> > visit
>> > the new OCaml website at ocaml.org."
>> >
>> > and on ocaml.org, you'll find a "modern website" wit= h a "more
>> > conventional"
>> > extension. One click later (on the Community
>> > item of the upper menu), you'll get the information you n= eed about
>> > mailing
>> > lists.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > - Mohamed.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Le 08/07/2016 17:16, Duane Johnson a =C3=A9crit :
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:40 AM, Gabriel Scherer
>> > <gabriel.sche= rer@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Adoption is interesting but, as Tony Hoare put it, we are= not fashion
>> >> designers. The best thing I can think of is to communicat= e more and
>> >> better,
>> >> talk about the cool world that is being done in the OCaml= communities,
>> >> and
>> >> importantly talking about it outside it. Supporting softw= are projects
>> >> that
>> >> have a potential for impact outside the OCaml community i= s also key --
>> >> Coq,
>> >> MLdonkey, Coccinelle, Flow, the SLAM static verifier tool= kit, just to
>> >> name a
>> >> few.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > As someone who just signed up to this mailing list, may I off= er some
>> > observations?
>> >
>> > - my first impression of OCaml community was through reddit.= com/r/ocaml.
>> > As
>> > a reddit user, I would rank /r/ocaml as "barely alive bu= t stable"--in
>> > other
>> > words, the upvotes-per-thread there are in the single digits = and low
>> > double-digits showing people exist there, but it is not a thr= iving
>> > community.
>> > - next, I tried to find a google group. It was hard to find a= ny
>> > substantial
>> > and popular OCaml groups there. There was an OCaml aggregatio= n list, but
>> > it
>> > wasn't clear that it was a discussion group. My first tho= ught was, Is
>> > there
>> > no mailing list? I searched around and found the infria.fr domain.= To an
>> > outsider, this lends no credibility or brand-name familiarity= . Not only
>> > is
>> > the web domain unfamiliar, but the website does not look welc= oming--it
>> > appears to be out of the 90s.
>> > - signing up for a mailing list is slow and unrewarding. I= 9;d much rather
>> > sign up for a more modern community technology like reddit, f= acebook,
>> > slack,
>> > or google groups.
>> > - I clicked "Info" to get more info about the maili= ng list on infria.fr
>> > and
>> > it says "Private information" inside a white bubble= . Ok...
>> > - I looked for a chat community, and IRC is the only option. = This
>> > signals
>> > "old tech community" to me. Slack or gitter.im is a more= inclusive,
>> > modern
>> > community. In order to participate in IRC, one must always be= connected.
>> > This makes it more difficult for outsiders to come in and fee= l like they
>> > can
>> > 'catch up' on the conversation (Yes, I know there are= chat logs, but
>> > this
>> > feature is not an integrated part of IRC).
>> >
>> > In summary, all of the signals that I usually depend on to ev= aluate the
>> > community around a technology are either weak or give me the = impression
>> > of
>> > "old and barely stable". New, exciting technologies= that I've seen tend
>> > to
>> > embrace and tap in to existing community platforms (slack, re= ddit,
>> > github,
>> > gitbook, google groups) in order to leverage the platform and= amplify
>> > their
>> > advertising signal.
>> >
>> > Duane Johnson
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:40 AM, Gabriel Scherer
>> > <gabriel.sche= rer@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Do others on this list feel the ramp to OCaml adopti= on is smoother
>> >> > than
>> >> > my impression suggests?
>> >>
>> >> I can't speak for "adoption", but I think t= hat you have been very kind
>> >> as
>> >> far as user experience is concerned, that it is probably = worse than you
>> >> suggest.
>> >>
>> >> We discussed some of these issues a few month ago in a th= read launched
>> >> by
>> >> Hendrik Bloom:
>> >>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Is OCaml for experienced beginners?
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Hendrik Bloom, December 2015
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0https:= //sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list/2015-12/msg00077.html
>> >>
>> >> I gave a few remarks on the evolution of the OCaml ecosys= tem on the
>> >> period
>> >> I know of that you may be interested in:
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0https:= //sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list/2015-12/msg00110.html
>> >>
>> >> I think "adoption" and "usability" ar= e interlinked but separate issues.
>> >>
>> >> Getting adoption distributes the number of people interes= ting in
>> >> helping
>> >> on usability, so it tends to improve usability, but I ten= d to think
>> >> that the
>> >> second is actually the more interesting, important goal t= o aim at.
>> >>
>> >> Adoption is interesting but, as Tony Hoare put it, we are= not fashion
>> >> designers. The best thing I can think of is to communicat= e more and
>> >> better,
>> >> talk about the cool world that is being done in the OCaml= communities,
>> >> and
>> >> importantly talking about it outside it. Supporting softw= are projects
>> >> that
>> >> have a potential for impact outside the OCaml community i= s also key --
>> >> Coq,
>> >> MLdonkey, Coccinelle, Flow, the SLAM static verifier tool= kit, just to
>> >> name a
>> >> few.
>> >>
>> >> Regarding usability, I think the tooling ecosystem is too= complex
>> >> today.
>> >> If I wanted to bootstrap a beginner to do stuff I would h= ave to tell
>> >> them
>> >> about the OCaml compiler tools (ocamlc, ocamlopt), ocamlf= ind, a build
>> >> system
>> >> (omake or ocamlbuild for example), oasis, Merlin, opam, a= nd get them to
>> >> learn either Vim or Emacs. That's a bit too much and = even with the
>> >> plethora
>> >> of tools there are problems we haven't really solved = yet -- for
>> >> example, how
>> >> to avoid module name conflicts.
>> >> I think a lot more work is required, both incremental imp= rovements and
>> >> a
>> >> few grand redesigns, before we reach a comfortable ecosys= tem where
>> >> starting
>> >> an OCaml project feels like a breeze. That's what I w= ould aim at.
>> >>
>> >>> Who here is excited about making OCaml approachable t= o newcomers?
>> >>> Where
>> >>> is the main ongoing work on this? Who are the main le= aders from this
>> >>> perspective?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> This is an interesting question. To my knowledge, no one = is
>> >> specifically
>> >> focused on this mightily important question. But it's= fair to assume
>> >> that we
>> >> have no "usability team" today, it's more a= distributed collection of
>> >> efforts going in all directions from various people, for = example:
>> >>
>> >> - Gerd Stolpmann did a lot of work on the early language = tooling,
>> >> notably
>> >> GODI (an earlier ocaml-specific package manager) and ocam= lfind, and
>> >> also
>> >> kept very high documentation standards that are an exampl= e to follow.
>> >>
>> >> - Sylvain le Gall's work on OASIS helps a lot of deve= lopers do their
>> >> packaging by encapsulating, in particular, the knowledge = of what to
>> >> install
>> >> where (not a simple question).
>> >>
>> >> - The OPAM team as a whole, as well as the maintainers of= the public
>> >> opam
>> >> repository, have done tremendous work making OCaml softwa= re easy to
>> >> install
>> >> and deploy. (Windows is still of a sore point, but there = is progress in
>> >> that
>> >> area. It's a distinct possibility that the OCaml ecos= ystem will become
>> >> nice
>> >> to use on Windows before Windows disappears or gets a rea= l Unix
>> >> userland.)
>> >>
>> >> I would personally be interested in helping someone with = a holistic
>> >> approach to usability devote as much of their time as the= y can. (I
>> >> think
>> >> there are some sources of funding that could be considere= d, but nothing
>> >> very
>> >> certain; from a crowd-funding perspective I would be glad= to pay =E2=82=AC30 a
>> >> month
>> >> to fund such a position.) I think this is a difficult pos= ition because
>> >> there
>> >> is a lot of thankless grunt work implied, and arguably it= 's not a very
>> >> career-advancing move.
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:57 AM, Dean Thompson
>> >> <deanshe= rthompson@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Thank you, everyone, for the responses and discussion= . If there is
>> >>> interest, I would still love to hear more thoughts ab= out whether there
>> >>> is a
>> >>> roadmap (either de facto from the community, or expli= cit from leaders
>> >>> of the
>> >>> community) to foster broader adoption.
>> >>>
>> >>> I see that many organizations are making immense cont= ributions to the
>> >>> community: from language and ecosystem enhancements, = to Real World
>> >>> OCaml, to
>> >>> the OCaml Users and Developers Workshop. Technical pr= ogress is rapid.
>> >>> But so
>> >>> far, to me, these wonderful contributions feel more l= ike giving back
>> >>> to the
>> >>> community for us to make what we can of them, rather = than anyone=E2=80=99s
>> >>> systematic effort to streamline broader uptake of OCa= ml.
>> >>>
>> >>> These are the impressions of a newcomer. If there is = interest, I would
>> >>> love to hear more seasoned viewpoints.
>> >>>
>> >>> Dean
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Caml-list mailing list.=C2=A0 Subscription management= and archives:
>> >>> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/cam= l-list
>> >>> Beginner's list: http://group= s.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners
>> >>> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-b= ugs
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Caml-list mailing list.=C2=A0 Subscription management and archives= :
>> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list
>> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/g= roup/ocaml_beginners
>> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs
>
>

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