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--94eb2c08539862eec30537342818 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 1:02 PM, Yotam Barnoy wrote: Also, could someone with ocaml github permissions start a gitter.im > page for OCaml? It should be relatively painless. > Can you explain what needs to be done exactly. When I'm logged in, I see nothing at gitter.im/ocaml and when I'm logged out I see links for ocaml/oasis and ocaml/opam. So something already works. On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Mohamed Iguernlala > wrote: > > Hi there, > > > > I guess you found inria.fr and not infria.fr :-). If it's the case, the > > first thing you should notice when visiting it is the message: > > > > "This site is updated infrequently. For up-to-date information, please > visit > > the new OCaml website at ocaml.org." > > > > and on ocaml.org, you'll find a "modern website" with a "more > conventional" > > extension. One click later (on the Community > > item of the upper menu), you'll get the information you need about > mailing > > lists. > > > > Regards, > > > > - Mohamed. > > > > > > > > Le 08/07/2016 17:16, Duane Johnson a =C3=A9crit : > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:40 AM, Gabriel Scherer < > gabriel.scherer@gmail.com> > > wrote: > >> > >> Adoption is interesting but, as Tony Hoare put it, we are not fashion > >> designers. The best thing I can think of is to communicate more and > better, > >> talk about the cool world that is being done in the OCaml communities, > and > >> importantly talking about it outside it. Supporting software projects > that > >> have a potential for impact outside the OCaml community is also key -- > Coq, > >> MLdonkey, Coccinelle, Flow, the SLAM static verifier toolkit, just to > name a > >> few. > > > > > > > > As someone who just signed up to this mailing list, may I offer some > > observations? > > > > - my first impression of OCaml community was through reddit.com/r/ocaml. > As > > a reddit user, I would rank /r/ocaml as "barely alive but stable"--in > other > > words, the upvotes-per-thread there are in the single digits and low > > double-digits showing people exist there, but it is not a thriving > > community. > > - next, I tried to find a google group. It was hard to find any > substantial > > and popular OCaml groups there. There was an OCaml aggregation list, but > it > > wasn't clear that it was a discussion group. My first thought was, Is > there > > no mailing list? I searched around and found the infria.fr domain. To an > > outsider, this lends no credibility or brand-name familiarity. Not only > is > > the web domain unfamiliar, but the website does not look welcoming--it > > appears to be out of the 90s. > > - signing up for a mailing list is slow and unrewarding. I'd much rather > > sign up for a more modern community technology like reddit, facebook, > slack, > > or google groups. > > - I clicked "Info" to get more info about the mailing list on infria.fr > and > > it says "Private information" inside a white bubble. Ok... > > - I looked for a chat community, and IRC is the only option. This signa= ls > > "old tech community" to me. Slack or gitter.im is a more inclusive, > modern > > community. In order to participate in IRC, one must always be connected. > > This makes it more difficult for outsiders to come in and feel like they > can > > 'catch up' on the conversation (Yes, I know there are chat logs, but th= is > > feature is not an integrated part of IRC). > > > > In summary, all of the signals that I usually depend on to evaluate the > > community around a technology are either weak or give me the impression > of > > "old and barely stable". New, exciting technologies that I've seen tend > to > > embrace and tap in to existing community platforms (slack, reddit, > github, > > gitbook, google groups) in order to leverage the platform and amplify > their > > advertising signal. > > > > Duane Johnson > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:40 AM, Gabriel Scherer < > gabriel.scherer@gmail.com> > > wrote: > >> > >> > Do others on this list feel the ramp to OCaml adoption is smoother > than > >> > my impression suggests? > >> > >> I can't speak for "adoption", but I think that you have been very kind > as > >> far as user experience is concerned, that it is probably worse than you > >> suggest. > >> > >> We discussed some of these issues a few month ago in a thread launched > by > >> Hendrik Bloom: > >> > >> Is OCaml for experienced beginners? > >> Hendrik Bloom, December 2015 > >> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list/2015-12/msg00077.html > >> > >> I gave a few remarks on the evolution of the OCaml ecosystem on the > period > >> I know of that you may be interested in: > >> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list/2015-12/msg00110.html > >> > >> I think "adoption" and "usability" are interlinked but separate issues. > >> > >> Getting adoption distributes the number of people interesting in helpi= ng > >> on usability, so it tends to improve usability, but I tend to think > that the > >> second is actually the more interesting, important goal to aim at. > >> > >> Adoption is interesting but, as Tony Hoare put it, we are not fashion > >> designers. The best thing I can think of is to communicate more and > better, > >> talk about the cool world that is being done in the OCaml communities, > and > >> importantly talking about it outside it. Supporting software projects > that > >> have a potential for impact outside the OCaml community is also key -- > Coq, > >> MLdonkey, Coccinelle, Flow, the SLAM static verifier toolkit, just to > name a > >> few. > >> > >> Regarding usability, I think the tooling ecosystem is too complex toda= y. > >> If I wanted to bootstrap a beginner to do stuff I would have to tell > them > >> about the OCaml compiler tools (ocamlc, ocamlopt), ocamlfind, a build > system > >> (omake or ocamlbuild for example), oasis, Merlin, opam, and get them to > >> learn either Vim or Emacs. That's a bit too much and even with the > plethora > >> of tools there are problems we haven't really solved yet -- for > example, how > >> to avoid module name conflicts. > >> I think a lot more work is required, both incremental improvements and= a > >> few grand redesigns, before we reach a comfortable ecosystem where > starting > >> an OCaml project feels like a breeze. That's what I would aim at. > >> > >>> Who here is excited about making OCaml approachable to newcomers? Whe= re > >>> is the main ongoing work on this? Who are the main leaders from this > >>> perspective? > >> > >> > >> This is an interesting question. To my knowledge, no one is specifical= ly > >> focused on this mightily important question. But it's fair to assume > that we > >> have no "usability team" today, it's more a distributed collection of > >> efforts going in all directions from various people, for example: > >> > >> - Gerd Stolpmann did a lot of work on the early language tooling, > notably > >> GODI (an earlier ocaml-specific package manager) and ocamlfind, and al= so > >> kept very high documentation standards that are an example to follow. > >> > >> - Sylvain le Gall's work on OASIS helps a lot of developers do their > >> packaging by encapsulating, in particular, the knowledge of what to > install > >> where (not a simple question). > >> > >> - The OPAM team as a whole, as well as the maintainers of the public > opam > >> repository, have done tremendous work making OCaml software easy to > install > >> and deploy. (Windows is still of a sore point, but there is progress in > that > >> area. It's a distinct possibility that the OCaml ecosystem will become > nice > >> to use on Windows before Windows disappears or gets a real Unix > userland.) > >> > >> I would personally be interested in helping someone with a holistic > >> approach to usability devote as much of their time as they can. (I thi= nk > >> there are some sources of funding that could be considered, but nothing > very > >> certain; from a crowd-funding perspective I would be glad to pay =E2= =82=AC30 a > month > >> to fund such a position.) I think this is a difficult position because > there > >> is a lot of thankless grunt work implied, and arguably it's not a very > >> career-advancing move. > >> > >> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:57 AM, Dean Thompson < > deansherthompson@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> Thank you, everyone, for the responses and discussion. If there is > >>> interest, I would still love to hear more thoughts about whether there > is a > >>> roadmap (either de facto from the community, or explicit from leaders > of the > >>> community) to foster broader adoption. > >>> > >>> I see that many organizations are making immense contributions to the > >>> community: from language and ecosystem enhancements, to Real World > OCaml, to > >>> the OCaml Users and Developers Workshop. Technical progress is rapid. > But so > >>> far, to me, these wonderful contributions feel more like giving back > to the > >>> community for us to make what we can of them, rather than anyone=E2= =80=99s > >>> systematic effort to streamline broader uptake of OCaml. > >>> > >>> These are the impressions of a newcomer. If there is interest, I would > >>> love to hear more seasoned viewpoints. > >>> > >>> Dean > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > >>> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > >>> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > >>> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > --94eb2c08539862eec30537342818 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On F= ri, Jul 8, 2016 at 1:02 PM, Yotam Barnoy <yotambarnoy@gmail.com>= ; wrote:

Also, could someone with ocaml github permissions start a gitter.im
page for OCaml? It should be relatively painless.

=
Can you explain what needs to be done exactly. When I'm logg= ed in, I see nothing at gitter.im/ocaml<= /a> and when I'm logged out I see links for ocaml/oasis and ocaml/opam.= So something already works.



On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Mohamed Iguernlala
<iguer.auto@gmail.com> wr= ote:
> Hi there,
>
> I guess you found inria.fr and not infria.fr :-). If it's the case, the
> first thing you should notice when visiting it is the message:
>
> "This site is updated infrequently. For up-to-date information, p= lease visit
> the new OCaml website at ocaml.org."
>
> and on ocaml.org, you'll find a "modern website" with a "= ;more conventional"
> extension. One click later (on the Community
> item of the upper menu), you'll get the information you need about= mailing
> lists.
>
> Regards,
>
> - Mohamed.
>
>
>
> Le 08/07/2016 17:16, Duane Johnson a =C3=A9crit :
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:40 AM, Gabriel Scherer <gabriel.scherer@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Adoption is interesting but, as Tony Hoare put it, we are not fash= ion
>> designers. The best thing I can think of is to communicate more an= d better,
>> talk about the cool world that is being done in the OCaml communit= ies, and
>> importantly talking about it outside it. Supporting software proje= cts that
>> have a potential for impact outside the OCaml community is also ke= y -- Coq,
>> MLdonkey, Coccinelle, Flow, the SLAM static verifier toolkit, just= to name a
>> few.
>
>
>
> As someone who just signed up to this mailing list, may I offer some > observations?
>
> - my first impression of OCaml community was through reddit.com/r/ocam= l. As
> a reddit user, I would rank /r/ocaml as "barely alive but stable&= quot;--in other
> words, the upvotes-per-thread there are in the single digits and low > double-digits showing people exist there, but it is not a thriving
> community.
> - next, I tried to find a google group. It was hard to find any substa= ntial
> and popular OCaml groups there. There was an OCaml aggregation list, b= ut it
> wasn't clear that it was a discussion group. My first thought was,= Is there
> no mailing list? I searched around and found the infria.fr domain. To an
> outsider, this lends no credibility or brand-name familiarity. Not onl= y is
> the web domain unfamiliar, but the website does not look welcoming--it=
> appears to be out of the 90s.
> - signing up for a mailing list is slow and unrewarding. I'd much = rather
> sign up for a more modern community technology like reddit, facebook, = slack,
> or google groups.
> - I clicked "Info" to get more info about the mailing list o= n infria.= fr and
> it says "Private information" inside a white bubble. Ok... > - I looked for a chat community, and IRC is the only option. This sign= als
> "old tech community" to me. Slack or gitter.im is a more inclusiv= e, modern
> community. In order to participate in IRC, one must always be connecte= d.
> This makes it more difficult for outsiders to come in and feel like th= ey can
> 'catch up' on the conversation (Yes, I know there are chat log= s, but this
> feature is not an integrated part of IRC).
>
> In summary, all of the signals that I usually depend on to evaluate th= e
> community around a technology are either weak or give me the impressio= n of
> "old and barely stable". New, exciting technologies that I&#= 39;ve seen tend to
> embrace and tap in to existing community platforms (slack, reddit, git= hub,
> gitbook, google groups) in order to leverage the platform and amplify = their
> advertising signal.
>
> Duane Johnson
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:40 AM, Gabriel Scherer <gabriel.scherer@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> > Do others on this list feel the ramp to OCaml adoption is smo= other than
>> > my impression suggests?
>>
>> I can't speak for "adoption", but I think that you h= ave been very kind as
>> far as user experience is concerned, that it is probably worse tha= n you
>> suggest.
>>
>> We discussed some of these issues a few month ago in a thread laun= ched by
>> Hendrik Bloom:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Is OCaml for experienced beginners?
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Hendrik Bloom, December 2015
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://sympa.i= nria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list/2015-12/msg00077.html
>>
>> I gave a few remarks on the evolution of the OCaml ecosystem on th= e period
>> I know of that you may be interested in:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://sympa.i= nria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list/2015-12/msg00110.html
>>
>> I think "adoption" and "usability" are interli= nked but separate issues.
>>
>> Getting adoption distributes the number of people interesting in h= elping
>> on usability, so it tends to improve usability, but I tend to thin= k that the
>> second is actually the more interesting, important goal to aim at.=
>>
>> Adoption is interesting but, as Tony Hoare put it, we are not fash= ion
>> designers. The best thing I can think of is to communicate more an= d better,
>> talk about the cool world that is being done in the OCaml communit= ies, and
>> importantly talking about it outside it. Supporting software proje= cts that
>> have a potential for impact outside the OCaml community is also ke= y -- Coq,
>> MLdonkey, Coccinelle, Flow, the SLAM static verifier toolkit, just= to name a
>> few.
>>
>> Regarding usability, I think the tooling ecosystem is too complex = today.
>> If I wanted to bootstrap a beginner to do stuff I would have to te= ll them
>> about the OCaml compiler tools (ocamlc, ocamlopt), ocamlfind, a bu= ild system
>> (omake or ocamlbuild for example), oasis, Merlin, opam, and get th= em to
>> learn either Vim or Emacs. That's a bit too much and even with= the plethora
>> of tools there are problems we haven't really solved yet -- fo= r example, how
>> to avoid module name conflicts.
>> I think a lot more work is required, both incremental improvements= and a
>> few grand redesigns, before we reach a comfortable ecosystem where= starting
>> an OCaml project feels like a breeze. That's what I would aim = at.
>>
>>> Who here is excited about making OCaml approachable to newcome= rs? Where
>>> is the main ongoing work on this? Who are the main leaders fro= m this
>>> perspective?
>>
>>
>> This is an interesting question. To my knowledge, no one is specif= ically
>> focused on this mightily important question. But it's fair to = assume that we
>> have no "usability team" today, it's more a distribu= ted collection of
>> efforts going in all directions from various people, for example:<= br> >>
>> - Gerd Stolpmann did a lot of work on the early language tooling, = notably
>> GODI (an earlier ocaml-specific package manager) and ocamlfind, an= d also
>> kept very high documentation standards that are an example to foll= ow.
>>
>> - Sylvain le Gall's work on OASIS helps a lot of developers do= their
>> packaging by encapsulating, in particular, the knowledge of what t= o install
>> where (not a simple question).
>>
>> - The OPAM team as a whole, as well as the maintainers of the publ= ic opam
>> repository, have done tremendous work making OCaml software easy t= o install
>> and deploy. (Windows is still of a sore point, but there is progre= ss in that
>> area. It's a distinct possibility that the OCaml ecosystem wil= l become nice
>> to use on Windows before Windows disappears or gets a real Unix us= erland.)
>>
>> I would personally be interested in helping someone with a holisti= c
>> approach to usability devote as much of their time as they can. (I= think
>> there are some sources of funding that could be considered, but no= thing very
>> certain; from a crowd-funding perspective I would be glad to pay = =E2=82=AC30 a month
>> to fund such a position.) I think this is a difficult position bec= ause there
>> is a lot of thankless grunt work implied, and arguably it's no= t a very
>> career-advancing move.
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:57 AM, Dean Thompson <deansherthompson@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you, everyone, for the responses and discussion. If ther= e is
>>> interest, I would still love to hear more thoughts about wheth= er there is a
>>> roadmap (either de facto from the community, or explicit from = leaders of the
>>> community) to foster broader adoption.
>>>
>>> I see that many organizations are making immense contributions= to the
>>> community: from language and ecosystem enhancements, to Real W= orld OCaml, to
>>> the OCaml Users and Developers Workshop. Technical progress is= rapid. But so
>>> far, to me, these wonderful contributions feel more like givin= g back to the
>>> community for us to make what we can of them, rather than anyo= ne=E2=80=99s
>>> systematic effort to streamline broader uptake of OCaml.
>>>
>>> These are the impressions of a newcomer. If there is interest,= I would
>>> love to hear more seasoned viewpoints.
>>>
>>> Dean
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Caml-list mailing list.=C2=A0 Subscription management and arch= ives:
>>> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list
>>> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.c= om/group/ocaml_beginners
>>> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >>
>>
>
>

--
Caml-list mailing list.=C2=A0 Subscription management and archives:
https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocam= l_beginners
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs

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