From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Original-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Delivered-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104]) by sympa.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 204147EE99 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 03:43:04 +0100 (CET) Received-SPF: None (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of yotambarnoy@gmail.com) identity=pra; client-ip=209.85.128.45; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="yotambarnoy@gmail.com"; x-sender="yotambarnoy@gmail.com"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: Pass (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: domain of yotambarnoy@gmail.com designates 209.85.128.45 as permitted sender) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=209.85.128.45; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="yotambarnoy@gmail.com"; x-sender="yotambarnoy@gmail.com"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible; x-record-type="v=spf1" Received-SPF: None (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of postmaster@mail-qe0-f45.google.com) identity=helo; client-ip=209.85.128.45; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="yotambarnoy@gmail.com"; x-sender="postmaster@mail-qe0-f45.google.com"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AosDALuit1LRVYAtlGdsb2JhbABZg0NVuT2BDggWDgEBAQEHCwsJEiqCJQEBAQMBQAEbEAoDAQMBCwYFCyIZIQEBEQEFARwGExuHVAEDCQgNpQ+MXIMJjmEKGScNZIVuEQEFDI0GghMHCoQsBIlDiCOCTYF4gWyBMIsqg00YKYR3Hg X-IPAS-Result: AosDALuit1LRVYAtlGdsb2JhbABZg0NVuT2BDggWDgEBAQEHCwsJEiqCJQEBAQMBQAEbEAoDAQMBCwYFCyIZIQEBEQEFARwGExuHVAEDCQgNpQ+MXIMJjmEKGScNZIVuEQEFDI0GghMHCoQsBIlDiCOCTYF4gWyBMIsqg00YKYR3Hg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,534,1384297200"; d="scan'208";a="42064174" Received: from mail-qe0-f45.google.com ([209.85.128.45]) by mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-SHA; 23 Dec 2013 03:43:02 +0100 Received: by mail-qe0-f45.google.com with SMTP id 6so4559732qea.4 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2013 18:43:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=hf1SaOxnOwLeTDcB365BKA5b5RyP02VDyFCWezpRLj4=; b=QcGmT1pqZx4gLFu5/TBUxI5otfV9DH+Uo5dUz+BmPrwcRrCMn/bCJ+16Cbm+qAhgfi T1y9+v/IPp6RishikhI66ehHni2UdyrIkrL4nYYkSPx4LWb3nQhCUo524uHvvRR/JnUz /c4R+WPh3BmuY82T9Sc+hRL/EBXWg5nX2e/7iX1t76n3csct1hF14rTmvYSvKkoSM8ys 0qgnL3u4Z4F8qSsb4LcbzJwQ9XlPuNbNalieFwy4fh6vW9u1lFxXbKEmPJpxl46JzGoM ErF0vTilSJYFZcliy6Ujki54YwcfuhOoJXyQW1RzGOiTq5hlRMJykqZf8y93MzwPD2tz 2e6Q== X-Received: by 10.224.123.15 with SMTP id n15mr26879326qar.78.1387766581361; Sun, 22 Dec 2013 18:43:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.95.8 with HTTP; Sun, 22 Dec 2013 18:42:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20131222140332.GA8080@annexia.org> From: Yotam Barnoy Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 21:42:40 -0500 Message-ID: To: Ashish Agarwal Cc: "Richard W.M. Jones" , Gabriel Scherer , Ocaml Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0149cf801d00a104ee2a9693 Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Moving ocaml to github (as well) --089e0149cf801d00a104ee2a9693 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Thank you for the very informative presentation, Gabriel. Markus sums up a lot of my thoughts on the subject. One can point to so many examples of competitors that gained momentum vs ones that lost it: Amazon vs every other retailer, Apple vs Microsoft, Facebook vs Myspace etc. What gets neglected is the little decisions along the way that helped gain momentum. Those little things cause other little consequences, many of them unpredictable. My research group used to use Assembla, which is a decent hosting site, but one of our members forced us to switch to github, and we haven't looked back: github has so many small features you get used to, starting with its highly intelligent browsing engine compared to every other solution, that other hosting sites can't compete. The combination of git + github's feature-set makes github unbeatable. As another example of momentum, my research group has already moved on to Haskell, mostly for its parallelization abilities. I actually get laughed at when I mention that I still use ocaml for my personal projects, though it's still my personal preference. As further anecdotal evidence, I would never have perused ocaml's source code had I not searched for it on github. Of course, once I found out it was a mirror of an svn, I was somewhat disappointed and lost any intention of directly contributing (at the time). That's just human nature -- 'everybody' is on github now, and for good reason, and researchers/programmers want to streamline their toolsets and processes just as much as the next person. In order for ocaml to survive and thrive, it needs users. Many, many users. Gabriel's presentation mentions that decisions made about ocaml's evolution will still be there in 2025. They probably will, but ocaml may just be a small personal project at that point -- much like the countless personal languages I see around my department. Languages need to be marketed, and they need to go viral to succeed. (The best salesmen I know for ocaml are Anil and Yaron). Moving fully to github is not a huge step in that direction, but I believe it's a step nonetheless. -Yotam On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Ashish Agarwal wrote: > On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 9:03 AM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > > (1) Putting a project on github increases the number of people >> submitting bug reports and pull requests using github's proprietary >> interface. This is annoying because you need some way to tell them >> not to do this, and to deal with people who do it anyway. (libguestfs >> -- hosted on github -- has an all-caps notice on the front page: >> http://github.com/libguestfs/libguestfs) >> > > Click the settings icon at the middle right (for the individual repo, not > the general account settings at the top right). There, you can disable the > Issues and Wiki features. I don't know any way to prevent submission of > pull requests. (I don't agree that these features should be avoided. I > think GitHub is by far the best development tool set currently available.) > > --089e0149cf801d00a104ee2a9693 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you for the very informative presenta= tion, Gabriel.

Markus sums up a lot of my thoughts on the subj= ect. One can point to so many examples of competitors that gained momentum = vs ones that lost it: Amazon vs every other retailer, Apple vs Microsoft, F= acebook vs Myspace etc. What gets neglected is the little decisions along t= he way that helped gain momentum. Those little things cause other little co= nsequences, many of them unpredictable. My research group used to use Assem= bla, which is a decent hosting site, but one of our members forced us to sw= itch to github, and we haven't looked back: github has so many small fe= atures you get used to, starting with its highly intelligent browsing engin= e compared to every other solution, that other hosting sites can't comp= ete. The combination of git + github's feature-set makes github unbeata= ble.

As another example of momentum, my research group has already moved on = to Haskell, mostly for its parallelization abilities. I actually get laughe= d at when I mention that I still use ocaml for my personal projects, though= it's still my personal preference.

As further anecdotal evidence, I would never have perused ocaml's s= ource code had I not searched for it on github. Of course, once I found out= it was a mirror of an svn, I was somewhat disappointed and lost any intent= ion of directly contributing (at the time). That's just human nature --= 'everybody' is on github now, and for good reason, and researchers= /programmers want to streamline their toolsets and processes just as much a= s the next person.

In order for ocaml to survive and thrive, it needs users. Many, m= any users. Gabriel's presentation mentions that decisions made about oc= aml's evolution will still be there in 2025. They probably will, but oc= aml may just be a small personal project at that point -- much like the cou= ntless personal languages I see around my department. Languages need to be = marketed, and they need to go viral to succeed. (The best salesmen I know f= or ocaml are Anil and Yaron). Moving fully to github is not a huge step in = that direction, but I believe it's a step nonetheless.

-Yotam


On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Ashish Agarwal <agarwal1975@gmail.com> wrote:
=
On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 9:03 A= M, Richard W.M. Jones <rich@annexia.org> wrote:

(1) Putting a project on github increases the number of people
submitting bug reports and pull requests using github's proprietary
interface. =A0This is annoying because you need some way to tell them
not to do this, and to deal with people who do it anyway. =A0(libguestfs
-- hosted on github -- has an all-caps notice on the front page:
http:= //github.com/libguestfs/libguestfs)

Click the settings icon at the middle right (for the individual repo= , not the general account settings at the top right). There, you can disabl= e the Issues and Wiki features. I don't know any way to prevent submiss= ion of pull requests. (I don't agree that these features should be avoi= ded. I think GitHub is by far the best development tool set currently avail= able.)


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