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(was: how to encourage adoption of OCaml?) --001a1146224cf944fc0537485ea2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Andreas, I think those are valid points. On the other hand, I suspect that a forum may be complementary with a mailing-list instead of replacing it. Arma=C3=ABl wrote: > I personnaly would be happy to help newcomers on a forum. and I think we should recognize that the caml-beginners list is a failure. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ocaml_beginners/conversations/messages Some people use it, but in numbers that are fairly small compared to the number of people that discover OCaml on a given time period (there are like 3 to 10 questions a month). It is sensibly less active than, say, StackOverflow http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/ocaml and its "yahoo group" interface is horrible (I don't know why people are enthusiastic about Google Groups either, but well). Any beginner-level discussion is ill-served by caml-list, and currently the only choice I think are IRC and StackOverflow, the first being fairly unstructured and the second being completely over the top in term of rigidity and blind application of dubious policies. I don't yet have a super-good idea of how to clearly delineate "beginner questions" and "stuff that would be a good fit for caml-list", but I think having a clear picture there could be an answer to your concern. On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 3:21 AM, Andreas Rossberg wrote: > > > On Jul 9, 2016, at 22:58 , Gabriel Scherer > wrote: > > > > Arma=C3=ABl: Discourse looks like an interesting option. If we tried to= setup > a Discourse instance for OCaml, would you be willing to act as a moderator > there? > > To paraphrase Dijkstra, IMHO email and mailing lists are an improvement > over more =E2=80=9Cmodern=E2=80=9D forums in almost every way, once you g= et past the > =E2=80=9Cflashiness=E2=80=9D thing: > > - participation without having to constantly log into yet another account > (with potential tracking), > - all communication through the same tool/UI (that actually works), easy > cross-communication and cross-quoting, archiving in one place, etc > - offline reading & writing, > - proper threading (Discourse sees its lack as a =E2=80=9Cfeature"), > - no annoying gamification, > - open, standardised and guaranteed to still be around in 5 or 10 years > from now. > > Also, IME, email generally encourages a slower, more considerate and more > comprehensive discussion style. > > Discourse has an email gateway, but last time I looked, it wasn=E2=80=99t= deemed > very usable. > > It would be sad to fragment the (not so huge) OCaml community just to hop > onto the latest train in forum fashion, be it Discourse or the next thing. > I=E2=80=99m sure we would lose some people on the way (happened with Rust= ). I=E2=80=99m > less sure about the people we gonna win over that way. > > /Andreas > > > > The Rust people have experience with Discourse as their main user forum > (I just created a topic ( > https://users.rust-lang.org/t/what-are-rusts-discourse-hosting-plans-and-= time-requirement/6462 > ) to ask about the specifics of their hosting plan), and closer to home t= he > Unikernel community also adopted discourse: > > > > github issue about the move: > > https://github.com/Unikernel-Systems/unikernel.org/issues/25 > > > > Discourse forum: > > https://devel.unikernel.org/ > > > > (I'm adding Amir Chaudhry, who organized the Unikernel, transition, to > the loop. He had excellent feedback when the ocamlbuild community asked > similar questions -- https://github.com/ocaml/ocamlbuild/issues/31 ) > > > > I would be ready to finance a six-month experiment of using Discourse > for the OCaml community, to see what it gives, but I'm not interested in > doing the setting-up and other administration work myself, so we would ne= ed > to have volunteers for that. > > > > On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 9:03 AM, Arma=C3=ABl Gu=C3=A9neau < > armael.gueneau@ens-lyon.fr> wrote: > > Le 09/07/2016 =C3=A0 00:18, Fabrice Le Fessant a =C3=A9crit : > > > I have no time to go on IRC, so I don't really care about it, but I > think that > > > we miss something in the middle between mailing-lists and IRC, which > is a > > > forum that would be hosted on > > ocaml.org (ocaml.org/forum > > ?). I used to go on > > > some BB forums at some point, I am pretty sure we could use something > like > > > that, or one of its more recent clones (but not a proprietary > website). Such > > > forums are quite practical, as you can both monitor them to answer > questions > > > immediately (=C3=A0 la IRC) without filling your inbox, and still be = able > to come > > > from time to time and look at former discussions. > > > > > > If there has to be something other than IRC and the mailing list, I > personnally > > quite like the idea of a forum. The *BB things sure have an old-school > > look&feel, but discourse [1] looks nice, for example, and I think the > rust > > people use it for their user forum [2] (and it is free software). > > > > I personnaly would be happy to help newcomers on such a forum. I'm also > not so > > fond of IRC-like mediums: the density of useful and actual content is > usually > > quite low (because of the informal aspect of the discussions), and not > > structured or easily searchable. It's not because you have access to the > 500k+ > > lines of backlog that the informations there are actually usable. > > > > =E2=80=94 Arma=C3=ABl > > > > [1]: https://www.discourse.org/ > > [2]: https://users.rust-lang.org/ > > > > --001a1146224cf944fc0537485ea2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Andreas, I think those are= valid points.

On the other hand, I suspect that a forum may b= e complementary with a mailing-list instead of replacing it. Arma=C3=ABl wr= ote:

>=20 I personnaly would be happy to help newcomers on a forum.

= and I think we should recognize that the caml-beginners list is a failure.<= br>
=C2=A0 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ocaml_beginne= rs/conversations/messages

Some people use it, but in numbers tha= t are fairly small compared to the number of people that discover OCaml on = a given time period (there are like 3 to 10 questions a month). It is sensi= bly less active than, say, StackOverflow

=C2=A0 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/= tagged/ocaml

and its "yahoo group" interface is = horrible (I don't know why people are enthusiastic about Google Groups = either, but well).

Any beginner-level discussion is ill-served= by caml-list, and currently the only choice I think are IRC and StackOverf= low, the first being fairly unstructured and the second being completely ov= er the top in term of rigidity and blind application of dubious policies.
I don't yet have a super-good idea of how to clearly deline= ate "beginner questions" and "stuff that would be a good fit= for caml-list", but I think having a clear picture there could be an = answer to your concern.

On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 3:21 AM, Andreas Rossberg <ros= sberg@mpi-sws.org> wrote:
<= span class=3D"">
> On Jul 9, 2016, at 22:58 , Gabriel Scherer <gabriel.scherer@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Arma=C3=ABl: Discourse looks like an interesting option. If we tried t= o setup a Discourse instance for OCaml, would you be willing to act as a mo= derator there?

To paraphrase Dijkstra, IMHO email and mailing lists are an improvem= ent over more =E2=80=9Cmodern=E2=80=9D forums in almost every way, once you= get past the =E2=80=9Cflashiness=E2=80=9D thing:

- participation without having to constantly log into yet another account (= with potential tracking),
- all communication through the same tool/UI (that actually works), easy cr= oss-communication and cross-quoting, archiving in one place, etc
- offline reading & writing,
- proper threading (Discourse sees its lack as a =E2=80=9Cfeature"), - no annoying gamification,
- open, standardised and guaranteed to still be around in 5 or 10 years fro= m now.

Also, IME, email generally encourages a slower, more considerate and more c= omprehensive discussion style.

Discourse has an email gateway, but last time I looked, it wasn=E2=80=99t d= eemed very usable.

It would be sad to fragment the (not so huge) OCaml community just to hop o= nto the latest train in forum fashion, be it Discourse or the next thing. I= =E2=80=99m sure we would lose some people on the way (happened with Rust). = I=E2=80=99m less sure about the people we gonna win over that way.

/Andreas


> The Rust people have experience with Discourse as their main user foru= m (I just created a topic ( https://users.rust-lang.org/t/what-are-rusts-discours= e-hosting-plans-and-time-requirement/6462 ) to ask about the specifics = of their hosting plan), and closer to home the Unikernel community also ado= pted discourse:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0github issue about the move:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://github.c= om/Unikernel-Systems/unikernel.org/issues/25
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Discourse forum:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://devel.unikernel.org/
>
> (I'm adding Amir Chaudhry, who organized the Unikernel, transition= , to the loop. He had excellent feedback when the ocamlbuild community aske= d similar questions -- https://github.com/ocaml/ocamlbu= ild/issues/31 )
>
> I would be ready to finance a six-month experiment of using Discourse = for the OCaml community, to see what it gives, but I'm not interested i= n doing the setting-up and other administration work myself, so we would ne= ed to have volunteers for that.
>
> On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 9:03 AM, Arma=C3=ABl Gu=C3=A9neau <armael.gueneau@ens-lyon.fr> w= rote:
> Le 09/07/2016 =C3=A0 00:18, Fabrice Le Fessant a =C3=A9crit :
> > I have no time to go on IRC, so I don't really care about it,= but I think that
> > we miss something in the middle between mailing-lists and IRC, wh= ich is a
> > forum that would be hosted on
> ocam= l.org (ocaml.org/forum
>=C2=A0 ?). I used to go on
> > some BB forums at some point, I am pretty sure we could use somet= hing like
> > that, or one of its more recent clones (but not a proprietary web= site). Such
> > forums are quite practical, as you can both monitor them to answe= r questions
> > immediately (=C3=A0 la IRC) without filling your inbox, and still= be able to come
> > from time to time and look at former discussions.
>
>
> If there has to be something other than IRC and the mailing list, I pe= rsonnally
> quite like the idea of a forum. The *BB things sure have an old-school=
> look&feel, but discourse [1] looks nice, for example, and I think = the rust
> people use it for their user forum [2] (and it is free software).
>
> I personnaly would be happy to help newcomers on such a forum. I'm= also not so
> fond of IRC-like mediums: the density of useful and actual content is = usually
> quite low (because of the informal aspect of the discussions), and not=
> structured or easily searchable. It's not because you have access = to the 500k+
> lines of backlog that the informations there are actually usable.
>
> =E2=80=94 Arma=C3=ABl
>
> [1]: https://www.discourse.org/
> [2]: https://users.rust-lang.org/
>


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