From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Original-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Delivered-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104]) by sympa.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7339F7EC6E for ; Sat, 21 Dec 2013 11:00:56 +0100 (CET) Received-SPF: None (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of gabriel.scherer@gmail.com) identity=pra; client-ip=209.85.214.49; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="gabriel.scherer@gmail.com"; x-sender="gabriel.scherer@gmail.com"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: Pass (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: domain of gabriel.scherer@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.49 as permitted sender) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=209.85.214.49; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="gabriel.scherer@gmail.com"; x-sender="gabriel.scherer@gmail.com"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible; x-record-type="v=spf1" Received-SPF: None (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of postmaster@mail-bk0-f49.google.com) identity=helo; client-ip=209.85.214.49; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="gabriel.scherer@gmail.com"; x-sender="postmaster@mail-bk0-f49.google.com"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: As0DAINltVLRVdYxlGdsb2JhbABYFoMtVaoxhjqIU4EICBYOAQEBAQcLCwkSKoIlAQEBAwFAARsdAQMBCwYFCzshAQERAQUBHAYTGodVAQMJCA2lBoxagwmOXQoZJw1khW4RAQUMjQaCDwQHhDYEliuBbIEwiyoCAYNKGCmEWjs X-IPAS-Result: As0DAINltVLRVdYxlGdsb2JhbABYFoMtVaoxhjqIU4EICBYOAQEBAQcLCwkSKoIlAQEBAwFAARsdAQMBCwYFCzshAQERAQUBHAYTGodVAQMJCA2lBoxagwmOXQoZJw1khW4RAQUMjQaCDwQHhDYEliuBbIEwiyoCAYNKGCmEWjs X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,526,1384297200"; d="scan'208";a="41950152" Received: from mail-bk0-f49.google.com ([209.85.214.49]) by mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-SHA; 21 Dec 2013 11:00:55 +0100 Received: by mail-bk0-f49.google.com with SMTP id my13so1495730bkb.22 for ; Sat, 21 Dec 2013 02:00:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=xR6wHrXU846VnG5Fj0dy4emuKknFQU5ccBQ7Blu5qHk=; b=jteB3CtYy6hHEGdxLPDeJqrNGzg/fSpy50T5O2uPCd6xVRzLSAk0JxstcAIhGRspbu zVsDEvzVhqHyUiCcttEkenaSIXKDmewmB9DIVNE2WgctB3A1x+OUCcMLBbrhY1tpp8LP Pw9b0LF/r/D54k32ILjuFpOFeJyEwiPlWR0bJX1ROocM/XaQtMUWJvG/qmaDomg+EW2J FZAmcQj+sHuTIvjnBXPttni4gWQAaTegwoMaFcAq7cfruDOS+hj2kynx5IhEgHMdxB35 tfXwqT9yLjiQ7tQpiPrBqtCSOa3P7quSbu+zPZoMu0CKq3wczpFtZnrJRCoK0Ga8krYu iZwA== X-Received: by 10.204.234.202 with SMTP id kd10mr666925bkb.53.1387620054776; Sat, 21 Dec 2013 02:00:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.205.45.5 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Dec 2013 02:00:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Gabriel Scherer Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 11:00:14 +0100 Message-ID: To: Yotam Barnoy Cc: Ocaml Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf301cbd0e72eef204ee0878fa Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Moving ocaml to github (as well) --20cf301cbd0e72eef204ee0878fa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I think "which control version software to use" should be strictly the choice of the developers. I've talked repeatedly with some of the major OCaml developers about that, and my impression is that, so far, they are happy to use SVN and see no major reason to change. I respect this choice and don't believe we should put any pressure on their choice of everyday tools. I hear the argument that putting a project on github automagically increases the amount of external contributions. This might be true, but has yet to be demonstrated. The major entry-point for OCaml development discussion (besides this list) is the bugtracker: http://caml.inria.fr/mantis/ I believe it is rather clear and easy-to-use (not as powerful as bugzilla, but not as scary either). If you think more visible documentation of where to go and how to contribute is needed, I'm ready to help make that happen (for example a page on ocaml.org). On mantis we accept bugreport, which sometimes turn into development discussion, frown upon feature requests, and welcome patches, either uploaded as a diff, or as a link to whatever-web-mirror-for-wichever-dcvs-you-like ( for example feel free to fork the de-facto-official github mirror, https://github.com/ocaml/ocaml/ , and send a link to a commit there ). My understanding of the "if we did X (which requires some not-fascinating work), we would have more contributions" kind of suggestions is that there are often cheap to propose and of doubtful effectfulness (some have been tried in the past, with not-always-convincing results). Some things have been done which are really nice, such as the "compiler hacking sessions" organized in the Cambridge area by Jeremy Yallop and Leo White at OCamllabs, and I hope we have even more of that in the future. > The ocaml code seems under-documented, with some files still having French documentation. > I have a feeling folks on this list could do a great job adding thorough documentation to the code > if a push was made to do that. Push ! Push ! This is a push ! I agree that the compiler code could be better commented, and have asked and obtained agreement to encourage and review patches commenting the code. Please send anything you've got in that direction, and tell the folks on this list to do the same. > For example, it appears that one sorely needed feature is proper backend multiplexing. Well, I would be happy to help discuss and review patches in that direction. OCaml developers tend to be conservative in things they accept upstream (anyone would be after 20 years of continuous development of the same thing, with mistakes of the past bugging you endlessly), but there are a few notable "external" contributions at each release, do not hesitate to provide one of them. I made a talk at an early OCaml User Paris Meeting about (my perception of) the distribution development, which may be of interest: http://gallium.inria.fr/~scherer/drafts/ocaml_paris_meetup_may_2013/draft.html On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 8:05 PM, Yotam Barnoy wrote: > Following on the news that camlp4 has been moved to github, I would like > to see ocaml moved to github as well (the main repository, that is -- not a > mirror): > > a. The ocaml code seems under-documented, with some files still having > French documentation. I have a feeling folks on this list could do a great > job adding thorough documentation to the code if a push was made to do > that. If people could add some documentation and then make a pull request > for their documented files, we'd soon have much better documentation. > b. Better documentation would lead to more people hacking the code, which > could help accelerate ocaml development. For example, it appears that one > sorely needed feature is proper backend multiplexing. The llvm backend that > was developed a couple of years back was forked by some people to develop > heavy features, and now all of those repositories are experiencing bit-rot. > The llvm backend could instead be an optional part of the official > distribution. > > Thoughts on this, anyone? > > -Yotam > --20cf301cbd0e72eef204ee0878fa Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think "which con= trol version software to use" should be strictly the choice of the dev= elopers. I've talked repeatedly with some of the major OCaml developers= about that, and my impression is that, so far, they are happy to use SVN a= nd see no major reason to change. I respect this choice and don't belie= ve we should put any pressure on their choice of everyday tools.

I hear the argument that putting a project on github automagicall= y increases the amount of external contributions. This might be true, but h= as yet to be demonstrated. The major entry-point for OCaml development disc= ussion (besides this list) is the bugtracker:
=A0 http://caml.inria.fr/mantis/
I believe it is rather clear and easy-to-use (not as powerful a= s bugzilla, but not as scary either). If you think more visible documentati= on of where to go and how to contribute is needed, I'm ready to help ma= ke that happen (for example a page on ocaml.or= g). On mantis we accept bugreport, which sometimes turn into developmen= t discussion, frown upon feature requests, and welcome patches, either uplo= aded as a diff, or as a link to whatever-web-mirror-for-wichever-dcvs-you-l= ike ( for example feel free to fork the de-facto-official github mirror, https://github.com/ocaml/ocaml/ , and send a link to a commit there ).

My understanding of the "if we did X (which requires some no= t-fascinating work), we would have more contributions" kind of suggest= ions is that there are often cheap to propose and of doubtful effectfulness= (some have been tried in the past, with not-always-convincing results). So= me things have been done which are really nice, such as the "compiler = hacking sessions" organized in the Cambridge area by Jeremy Yallop and= Leo White at OCamllabs, and I hope we have even more of that in the future= .

> The ocaml code seems under-documented, with some files still havin= g=20 French documentation.
> I have a feeling folks on this list could do = a=20 great job adding thorough documentation to the code
> if a push was m= ade=20 to do that.

Push ! Push ! This is a push !

I agre= e that the compiler code could be better commented, and have asked and obta= ined agreement to encourage and review patches commenting the code. Please = send anything you've got in that direction, and tell the folks on this = list to do the same.

>=20 For example, it appears that one sorely needed feature is proper backend multiplexing.

Well, I would be happy to help discuss and revi= ew patches in that direction. OCaml developers tend to be conservative in t= hings they accept upstream (anyone would be after 20 years of continuous de= velopment of the same thing, with mistakes of the past bugging you endlessl= y), but there are a few notable "external" contributions at each = release, do not hesitate to provide one of them.

I made a talk at an early OCaml User Paris Meeting about (my perc= eption of) the distribution development, which may be of interest:
=A0 <= a href=3D"http://gallium.inria.fr/~scherer/drafts/ocaml_paris_meetup_may_20= 13/draft.html">http://gallium.inria.fr/~scherer/drafts/ocaml_paris_meetup_m= ay_2013/draft.html
=


On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 8:05 PM, Yotam Barnoy <yotamb= arnoy@gmail.com> wrote:
Following on the news = that camlp4 has been moved to github, I would like to see ocaml moved to gi= thub as well (the main repository, that is -- not a mirror):

a. The ocaml code seems under-documented, with some files still having=20 French documentation. I have a feeling folks on this list could do a=20 great job adding thorough documentation to the code if a push was made=20 to do that. If people could add some documentation and then make a pull=20 request for their documented files, we'd soon have much better=20 documentation.
b. Better documentation would lead to more=20 people hacking the code, which could help accelerate ocaml development.=20 For example, it appears that one sorely needed feature is proper backend multiplexing. The llvm backend that was developed a couple of years=20 back was forked by some people to develop heavy features, and now=20 all of those repositories are experiencing bit-rot. The llvm backend could = instead be=20 an optional part of the official distribution.

Thoughts on this, anyone?

-= Yotam

--20cf301cbd0e72eef204ee0878fa--