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I can't speak for "adoption", but I think that you have been very kind as far as user experience is concerned, that it is probably worse than you suggest. We discussed some of these issues a few month ago in a thread launched by Hendrik Bloom: Is OCaml for experienced beginners? Hendrik Bloom, December 2015 https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list/2015-12/msg00077.html I gave a few remarks on the evolution of the OCaml ecosystem on the period I know of that you may be interested in: https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list/2015-12/msg00110.html I think "adoption" and "usability" are interlinked but separate issues. Getting adoption distributes the number of people interesting in helping on usability, so it tends to improve usability, but I tend to think that the second is actually the more interesting, important goal to aim at. Adoption is interesting but, as Tony Hoare put it, we are not fashion designers. The best thing I can think of is to communicate more and better, talk about the cool world that is being done in the OCaml communities, and importantly talking about it outside it. Supporting software projects that have a potential for impact outside the OCaml community is also key -- Coq, MLdonkey, Coccinelle, Flow, the SLAM static verifier toolkit, just to name a few. Regarding usability, I think the tooling ecosystem is too complex today. If I wanted to bootstrap a beginner to do stuff I would have to tell them about the OCaml compiler tools (ocamlc, ocamlopt), ocamlfind, a build system (omake or ocamlbuild for example), oasis, Merlin, opam, and get them to learn either Vim or Emacs. That's a bit too much and even with the plethora of tools there are problems we haven't really solved yet -- for example, how to avoid module name conflicts. I think a lot more work is required, both incremental improvements and a few grand redesigns, before we reach a comfortable ecosystem where starting an OCaml project feels like a breeze. That's what I would aim at. Who here is excited about making OCaml approachable to newcomers? Where is > the main ongoing work on this? Who are the main leaders from this > perspective? > This is an interesting question. To my knowledge, no one is specifically focused on this mightily important question. But it's fair to assume that we have no "usability team" today, it's more a distributed collection of efforts going in all directions from various people, for example: - Gerd Stolpmann did a lot of work on the early language tooling, notably GODI (an earlier ocaml-specific package manager) and ocamlfind, and also kept very high documentation standards that are an example to follow. - Sylvain le Gall's work on OASIS helps a lot of developers do their packaging by encapsulating, in particular, the knowledge of what to install where (not a simple question). - The OPAM team as a whole, as well as the maintainers of the public opam repository, have done tremendous work making OCaml software easy to install and deploy. (Windows is still of a sore point, but there is progress in that area. It's a distinct possibility that the OCaml ecosystem will become nice to use on Windows before Windows disappears or gets a real Unix userland.) I would personally be interested in helping someone with a holistic approach to usability devote as much of their time as they can. (I think there are some sources of funding that could be considered, but nothing very certain; from a crowd-funding perspective I would be glad to pay =E2= =82=AC30 a month to fund such a position.) I think this is a difficult position because there is a lot of thankless grunt work implied, and arguably it's not a very career-advancing move. On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:57 AM, Dean Thompson wrote: > Thank you, everyone, for the responses and discussion. If there is > interest, I would still love to hear more thoughts about whether there is= a > roadmap (either de facto from the community, or explicit from leaders of > the community) to foster broader adoption. > > I see that many organizations are making immense contributions to the > community: from language and ecosystem enhancements, to Real World OCaml, > to the OCaml Users and Developers Workshop. Technical progress is rapid. > But so far, to me, these wonderful contributions feel more like giving ba= ck > to the community for us to make what we can of them, rather than anyone= =E2=80=99s > systematic effort to streamline broader uptake of OCaml. > > These are the impressions of a newcomer. If there is interest, I would > love to hear more seasoned viewpoints. > > Dean > > > > > > > -- > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > --001a1143e0cec3d6b2053720cb19 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Do others on this list feel the ramp t= o OCaml adoption is smoother than my impression suggests?

I ca= n't speak for "adoption", but I think that you have been very= kind as far as user experience is concerned, that it is probably worse tha= n you suggest.

We discussed some of these issues a few month a= go in a thread launched by Hendrik Bloom:

=C2=A0 Is OCaml for experi= enced beginners?
=C2=A0 Hendrik Bloom, December 2015
I gave a few remarks on the evolution o= f the OCaml ecosystem on the period I know of that you may be interested in= :
=C2=A0 https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list/= 2015-12/msg00110.html

I think "adoption" an= d "usability" are interlinked but separate issues.

Gettin= g adoption distributes the number of people interesting in helping on usabi= lity, so it tends to improve usability, but I tend to think that the second= is actually the more interesting, important goal to aim at.

Adoptio= n is interesting but, as Tony Hoare put it, we are not fashion designers. T= he best thing I can think of is to communicate more and better, talk about = the cool world that is being done in the OCaml communities, and importantly= talking about it outside it. Supporting software projects that have a pote= ntial for impact outside the OCaml community is also key -- Coq, MLdonkey, = Coccinelle, Flow, the SLAM static verifier toolkit, just to name a few.
=
Regarding usability, I think the tooling ecosystem is too co= mplex today. If I wanted to bootstrap a beginner to do stuff I would have t= o tell them about the OCaml compiler tools (ocamlc, ocamlopt), ocamlfind, a= build system (omake or ocamlbuild for example), oasis, Merlin, opam, and g= et them to learn either Vim or Emacs. That's a bit too much and even wi= th the plethora of tools there are problems we haven't really solved ye= t -- for example, how to avoid module name conflicts.
I think a lot more= work is required, both incremental improvements and a few grand redesigns,= before we reach a comfortable ecosystem where starting an OCaml project fe= els like a breeze. That's what I would aim at.

Who here is excited about making OCaml app= roachable to newcomers? Where=20 is the main ongoing work on this? Who are the main leaders from this=20 perspective?

This is an interesting que= stion. To my knowledge, no one is specifically focused on this mightily imp= ortant question. But it's fair to assume that we have no "usabilit= y team" today, it's more a distributed collection of efforts going= in all directions from various people, for example:

- Ge= rd Stolpmann did a lot of work on the early language tooling, notably GODI = (an earlier ocaml-specific package manager) and ocamlfind, and also kept ve= ry high documentation standards that are an example to follow.

- Sylvain le Gall's work on OASIS helps a lot of developers do th= eir packaging by encapsulating, in particular, the knowledge of what to in= stall where (not a simple question).

- The OPAM team as a= whole, as well as the maintainers of the public opam repository, have done= tremendous work making OCaml software easy to install and deploy. (Windows= is still of a sore point, but there is progress in that area. It's a d= istinct possibility that the OCaml ecosystem will become nice to use on Win= dows before Windows disappears or gets a real Unix userland.)

I would personally be interested in helping someone with a holistic ap= proach to usability devote as much of their time as they can. (I think ther= e are some sources of funding that could be considered, but nothing very ce= rtain; from a crowd-funding perspective I would be glad to pay =E2=82=AC30 = a month to fund such a position.) I think this is a difficult position beca= use there is a lot of thankless grunt work implied, and arguably it's n= ot a very career-advancing move.

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:57 AM, Dean T= hompson <deansherthompson@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you, everyone, for the responses and discu= ssion. If there is interest, I would still love to hear more thoughts about= whether there is a roadmap (either de facto from the community, or explici= t from leaders of the community) to foster broader adoption.

I see that many organizations are making immense contributions to the commu= nity: from language and ecosystem enhancements, to Real World OCaml, to the= OCaml Users and Developers Workshop. Technical progress is rapid. But so f= ar, to me, these wonderful contributions feel more like giving back to the = community for us to make what we can of them, rather than anyone=E2=80=99s = systematic effort to streamline broader uptake of OCaml.

These are the impressions of a newcomer. If there is interest, I would love= to hear more seasoned viewpoints.

Dean






--
Caml-list mailing list.=C2=A0 Subscription management and archives:
https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list
Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocam= l_beginners
Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs

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