From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Original-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Delivered-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104]) by sympa.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3637C7FE36 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 12:01:46 +0200 (CEST) IronPort-PHdr: 9a23:ELubIxSRwddYZHmnv8LF6yEe99psv+yvbD5Q0YIujvd0So/mwa64YhWN2/xhgRfzUJnB7Loc0qyN4vimADNLu8/JmUtBWaQEbwUCh8QSkl5oK+++Imq/EsTXaTcnFt9JTl5v8iLzG0FUHMHjew+a+SXqvnYsExnyfTB4Ov7yUtaLyZ/mj6brpNaJOk1hv3mUWftKNhK4rAHc5IE9oLBJDeIP8CbPuWZCYO9MxGlldhq5lhf44dqsrtY4q3wD86Fpy8kVG67zeqB9Sb1DEBwnNXo07Yvlr1OLGQCG439ZVmQNjjJJBRLE5Vf0RMGinDH9s79R1SCcdfH2SrUsQjOkp/NnRRbukycKLSI592TPkct2pK1eqROl4Rd4xtiHM8muKPNic/aFLpshTm1bU5MJWg== Authentication-Results: mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; spf=None smtp.pra=deansherthompson@gmail.com; spf=Pass smtp.mailfrom=deansherthompson@gmail.com; spf=None smtp.helo=postmaster@mail-it0-f51.google.com Received-SPF: None (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of deansherthompson@gmail.com) identity=pra; client-ip=209.85.214.51; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="deansherthompson@gmail.com"; x-sender="deansherthompson@gmail.com"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: Pass (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: domain of deansherthompson@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.51 as permitted sender) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=209.85.214.51; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="deansherthompson@gmail.com"; x-sender="deansherthompson@gmail.com"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible; x-record-type="v=spf1" Received-SPF: None (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of postmaster@mail-it0-f51.google.com) identity=helo; client-ip=209.85.214.51; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="deansherthompson@gmail.com"; x-sender="postmaster@mail-it0-f51.google.com"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0C2AABD7XRXhjPWVdFahBR9pjwEA4dOjS4XC4VwA4E5PBABAQEBAQEBAREBAQEICwsJISQLgjKCMxEdARseAxIQDwImAiURAQUBIicOh3MBAxcOom6CB4ExPjGLO4FqgR6BPAWGYAoZJw1Sg0oBAQgBAQEBARoCBhBxhx4IgUuFH4JtCy0TGIIvBZkLi3SCTYFqF4c8DiOFPI5GMIEPNYI4gXNSiASBRAEBAQ X-IPAS-Result: A0C2AABD7XRXhjPWVdFahBR9pjwEA4dOjS4XC4VwA4E5PBABAQEBAQEBAREBAQEICwsJISQLgjKCMxEdARseAxIQDwImAiURAQUBIicOh3MBAxcOom6CB4ExPjGLO4FqgR6BPAWGYAoZJw1Sg0oBAQgBAQEBARoCBhBxhx4IgUuFH4JtCy0TGIIvBZkLi3SCTYFqF4c8DiOFPI5GMIEPNYI4gXNSiASBRAEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,551,1459807200"; d="scan'208";a="183301818" Received: from mail-it0-f51.google.com ([209.85.214.51]) by mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-GCM-SHA256; 30 Jun 2016 12:01:45 +0200 Received: by mail-it0-f51.google.com with SMTP id h190so66783211ith.1 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 03:01:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:date:subject:to:message-id :mime-version; bh=PVZpP5OMX7CIxE0h9bMjGmIW7kISVDp1VQPoahvlk+o=; b=B+aic7iRDpalDQboTquhWWN3qxY/kqtkh4mk0k7xoLtWKK1axrk4QtqoakVhOwUXhb +jRtbVtge2cdmx1LBszd6I/8Tyu36fBgItwEYw24di7Mi9Sq9tejPptIxJnsRKbzUxZb g0FRCS1XJD+6SQxjAjoiSskLKLbtvHEDAqq9v01DyVQ9CB6/V5sQXdjGV2suHYsI7kkI DKGH9FYj44cmJthleG/JLcQ2DFRyeVza9dE83AAEGE0cu4FdiGHfj6tR/MDnNi1bD8gM ZO3ldGq6KwEHt06nOKA46bwD1F9H6LI12bh9I+0CJsUAGrXGvEkBDxzbXmYMBoOCfHNW PS1A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:date:subject:to :message-id:mime-version; bh=PVZpP5OMX7CIxE0h9bMjGmIW7kISVDp1VQPoahvlk+o=; b=Re6MTKVfdkVwV4FIhQ58l2b4K/WvI/C4k9xzYY0rc4F2JQqjFPgxvuxxRyL8vYwH/P 9GA+Znz9UD1nI1btqVL2ZCvKSkYAiVrxbjUQGIn/u+GFo9ecmeZRN2hZt0Coa/OI33Xa bxGm0nKwBq5GEJUDVE60f6TWPEXmCp5oubQuFCCOXsyfA3XHHMDjfl3kxiFJVx5pnpvJ GG6H+mBS6+P5QTAha6/09yLCg0bT+/Bk0OA+Kd+cpYG8/wGOBFFmyAVLhGQzKuH6JWCI qPzYnxoR9PEukNFz8QljxhzX8TFakd2cFxv2GvfcfJofJxSilHz2B11gX+DWBFSKMwB2 I6Zw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tLQW6sEjnPX56CPAIokTPmJ/UGf8YOxx+/sbZLB0qYwR4iq6V5mC6ztvZ7cb0+Xyw== X-Received: by 10.36.71.143 with SMTP id t137mr14076391itb.0.1467280903678; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 03:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.28] ([166.170.22.127]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z68sm10554345ita.14.2016.06.30.03.01.42 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Jun 2016 03:01:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Dean Thompson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 06:01:41 -0400 To: "caml-list@inria.fr" Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Subject: [Caml-list] how to encourage adoption of OCaml? A few years ago, with over 30 years of programming experience including 15 = years primarily in Java, I decided I needed a new =E2=80=9Chome=E2=80=9D pr= ogramming language. I then spent a frustrating few years studying what=E2= =80=99s out there. I have felt like a man without a country. I developed fa= irly serious crushes on Scala and then on Haskell, but after a few serious = dates with them I moved on. I have read deeply about many, many more. I have converged on OCaml. It is a beautiful language and a highly practica= l functional language. Although infrastructure such as compilers, editor/ID= E support, and libraries are on the minimal side, the essentials are all th= ere and are lovingly maintained. Although the community is small, it is sma= rt, friendly, and engaged. Some amazing technology is available or work-in-= progress (such as js_of_ocaml and Mirage). But this feels like a fragile new home unless we can build a bigger communi= ty! For one thing, if our community shrinks much, it may no longer be viabl= e. Also, while I love 1,000 packages on opam, I want 100,000! As a newcomer to the community, I have to say that there are daunting barri= ers to a potential new user considering OCaml for a new project. If you lik= e starting on a new programming language with a book, as I do, you likely s= tart with Real World OCaml. That book is very inspiring! But then when you = try to move from RWO to, well, using OCaml in the real world, you discover = that there is no consensus on Core as a standard library, and that Camlp4 i= s deprecated. It appears to me that if, instead, you come to OCaml as a potential new use= r through ocaml.org, there are other barriers. It is hard for me to judge b= ecause I came through RWO, but it appears to me that the lack of consensus = on standard library comes up pretty quickly. I=E2=80=99m more of a language= manual guy than a tutorial guy, so I quickly notice that, although the OCa= ml language manual is well written, has a lovely introductory flow, and has= great examples, it fairly quickly gets into terse description of language = constructs while providing limited help to a beginner in developing intuiti= on for the language as a whole and how best to use it. This is one man=E2=80=99s experience and one man=E2=80=99s opinions. Do oth= ers on this list feel the ramp to OCaml adoption is smoother than my impres= sion suggests? Who here is excited about making OCaml approachable to newco= mers? Where is the main ongoing work on this? Who are the main leaders from= this perspective? Dean -------- Dean Thompson http://www.linkedin.com/in/deansthompson/