From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id OAA26721; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:49:57 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA26167 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:49:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (outbound28-2.lax.untd.com [64.136.28.160]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i7CCnsRM025173 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:49:55 +0200 Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (smtp01.lax.untd.com [10.130.24.121]) by smtpout02.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABATY336AVZH3T2 for (sender ); Thu, 12 Aug 2004 05:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 4734 invoked from network); 12 Aug 2004 12:48:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO vangogh) (66.52.236.216) by smtp01.lax.untd.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 2004 12:48:44 -0000 From: "Brandon J. Van Every" To: "caml" Subject: [Caml-list] OCaml growing pains Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 05:59:24 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20040812092804.GA22284@yquem.inria.fr> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ContentStamp: 14:7:1275218341 X-MAIL-INFO: 1e3154edb011405454c595e17031ed6431a1d0c95129c959a005a001805974 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: CI84cOLHFqh7Zd2QWkwvEFvwyO3T/pIsFsCrOjjLH84j8Bm3xsFxnyKgoc/9XDOI X-Miltered: at concorde with ID 411B6772.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr)! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; brandon:99 composing:01 caml-list:01 posts:01 stupid:01 stupid:01 seattle:99 seattle:99 parking:99 hubs:99 caml-list:01 python:01 model:01 python:01 programmer's:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk Xavier Leroy wrote: > Some of your recent Usenet > postings left me shaking my head in disbelief, not knowing whether to > laugh or cry. I was going to reply privately, taking this comment of yours in stride. I was composing my reply inline, dealing with some industrial growth issues. When I got farther down in your post, I realized how nasty your response actually was, and how disinterested you are in some things I'm interested in. I don't take public nastiness sitting down, so here's my reply. > Finally, my parents taught me not to use "I want" in polite company, > so I find your demands somewhat rude. Posting to caml-list isn't a > right, it's a privilege. Having posts blocked for stupid reasons by machines is rude. I hope you don't start entertaining the notion that getting exasperated at stupid machines is uncalled for. > Why don't you just put the details of your meeting on a web page and > post a short message "Next meeting on , see http://URL for > practical details"? - people don't click on URLs when they're busy. > You do realize that > 95% of the subscribers don't > leave in Seattle and couldn't care less about the delicacies and car > park available there, right? - people visit Seattle from other cities and move there - people need motives to come to meetings, i.e. location, parking, beer - establishing critical mass in tech hubs is important to language growth - when other cities finally want to do it, they know who to contact - repetition is the key to all learning - announces every 3 weeks aren't anything out of anyone's life - those that don't care can skip it upon reading the subject line This is called getting things done. Where's your index of local user groups? Where are the announces? There is nothing at http://caml.inria.fr at all. What transmission vehicle if not caml-list? To grow, OCaml needs more than 1 mailing list devoted to the uber-technical. Two attitudes you could take here. (1) "Fine, Brand*n. Go start all your own lists. Knock yourself out." (2) "Yes actually INRIA would like to facilitate these efforts to grow OCaml." > - I and many other caml-list regulars don't wish to discuss business > issues with you. I don't discuss business on open mailing lists. That's definitely not an open source attitude. I would say that Python and Perl have more powerful models of business promotion than the 'closed doors' model you say you prefer. > - The growing pains you mention weren't apparent to us before you > started making such a noise on this list. If you do not see the growing pains in OCaml, it is because you're not much interested in issues of industrialization and evangelism. On this list I have heard people discussing the standard library and what INRIA's role should be with it. Someone tried to volunteer a paid compiler guy, so that they could get some business insurance on what's happening with OCaml. People still think http://www.ocaml.org/ is the proper website, and I've seen no movement on that issue since I've been on this list. You are at a pre-Python level of industrialization. Python is on every programmer's lips, but commands a measly 2% market share (to be generous). It has a gazillion libraries that OCaml doesn't have, yet still lacks glaringly in large scale desktop applications development and 3D graphics. It can't mount a business-friendly marketing campaign because of the techies currently in charge of it. Whereas OCaml is in the "What's that?" stage. So if Python has growing pains, you have growing pains. Unless your attitude is similar to Matthias Blume's, that SML/NJ is only good for publishing papers for other academics. > - You're most welcome to create your caml-biz list and > discuss whatever you want there. Actually, I feel you > aren't interested in discussions as much as in > asserting your preconceptions, which makes you prime > material for blogging. A gratuitous piece of managerial theory for you today: http://www.teams.org.uk/shaper.htm > - As I explained above, posting to this list isn't a right, so we > are not at all "stuck with you here". But what responsibility do you feel, Xavier, for building communities? At the most basic level, are you only interested in people who play the game your way, on your terms? Or do you want OCaml to grow into something big and really useful to tons of people? If you want the latter, you will have to cut people some slack. > Thanks for your attention. Do I receive yours in fair exchange, regarding communities? Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com Brand*n Van Every S*attle, WA Praise Be to the caml-list Bayesian filter! It blesseth my postings, it is evil crap! evil crap! Bigarray! Unboxed overhead group! Wondering! chant chant chant... // return an array of 100 packed tuples temps int $[tvar0][2*100]; // what the c function needs value $[tvar1]; // one int value $[tvar2]; // one tuple int $[tvar3] // loop control var oncePre eachPre $[cvar0]=&($[tvar0][0]); eachPost $[lvar0] = alloc(2*100, 0 /*NB: zero-tagged block*/ ); for(int $[tvar3]=0;$[tvar3]<100;$[tvar3]++) { $[tvar2] = alloc_tuple(2); $[tvar1] = Val_int($[cvar0][0+2*$[tvar3]]); Store_field($[tvar2],0,$[tvar1]); $[tvar1] = Val_int($[cvar0][1]); Store_field($[tvar2],1,$[tvar1+2*$[tvar3]]); Array_store($[lvar0],$[tvar3],$[tvar0]); } oncePost ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners