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From: Brian Hurt <bhurt@spnz.org>
To: Thomas Fischbacher <Thomas.Fischbacher@Physik.Uni-Muenchen.DE>
Cc: Michael Walter <michael.walter@gmail.com>,
	skaller <skaller@users.sourceforge.net>, Jon <jdh30@cam.ac.uk>,
	<caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] The boon of static type checking
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:47:54 -0600 (CST)	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502121233300.5563-100000@localhost.localdomain> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0502121653280.22145@eiger.cip.physik.uni-muenchen.de>

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005, Thomas Fischbacher wrote:

> 
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2005, Brian Hurt wrote:
> 
> > And I disbeleive the "makes it easier with large programs" statement.  
> > It's contrary to all evidence I've seen, and all my experience.  The 
> > complexity of a program is, I've postulated, a function of the number of 
> > interactions between different parts of the code.  And that therefor the 
> > innate complexity approximately scales with the square of the number of 
> > lines of code- so a 10,000 line program is 100 times as complicated as a 
> > 1,000 line program.  Brooks has evidence of this as well.
> 
> I don't think this is true. It certainly is for spaghetti code, but isn't 
> it just the essence of structured programming to avoid having complexity 
> scale like (lines)^2?

Structured programming just has a different constant factor.  Also, what
sort of programming you're doing also changes the constant factors.  
Brooks himself noticed this- that compilers seemed to be about 3 times as 
difficult per LOC as normal programs, and operating systems about 3 times 
more difficult still.  Not sure if this still holds.

> 
> There are both quite general and strong reasons why one 
> should expect the complexity of programs of roughly the same "style" 
> (whatever one has to invent to make a proper, meaningful notion out of 
> this) to obey a scaling law of the form
> 
>  [nontrivial interactions] ~ [lines]^N
> 
> but not necessarily with an integer exponent. I furthermore strongly 
> suppose that this exponent should depend a lot on the programmer.

Obviously N > 1.  I'd also argue that N <= 2.  But I think N is closer to 
2 than to 1, i.e. N > 1.5.

Assume 1,000 lines = 1 day of work (I generally toss off a thousand line 
program in a day)- how long does a 10,000 line program take?  With N=2, 
the 10KLOC program takes about 100 days, or 5 man-months.  You're right, 
that's long.  With N=1.5, it takes ~31 days, or 6 weeks.  This is closer.  
With N=1.75, it takes ~56 days (11 weeks).  Assuming 5 days/week and 20 
days/month.  So, you're right- an N in the range of 1.5-1.75 sounds about 
right.

Note that with N=1.5, a 100,000 program takes 1,000 man-days, or 50 
man-months (4 man-years), and a 1,000,000 line program takes man 
centuries.

The important point is the scaling is exponential, not linear.

Brian



  reply	other threads:[~2005-02-12 18:44 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 169+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2005-02-02 21:31 Estimating the size of the ocaml community Yaron Minsky
2005-02-02 21:36 ` [Caml-list] " Christopher A. Watford
2005-02-02 21:54   ` Frédéric Gava
2005-02-03  3:58     ` skaller
2005-02-03  6:35       ` Erik de Castro Lopo
2005-02-03 16:29         ` Olivier Pérès
2005-02-03 18:06         ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-03 18:34           ` Frédéric Gava
2005-02-03 21:16             ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-03 21:58               ` Paul Snively
2005-02-03 22:42                 ` Bardur Arantsson
2005-02-03 23:29                   ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-03 22:33               ` josh
2005-02-03 23:22                 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-03 23:39                   ` Richard Jones
2005-02-04  9:04                     ` Frédéric Gava
2005-02-04  9:37                       ` Richard Jones
2005-02-04 10:11                       ` Olivier Andrieu
2005-02-04 11:14                         ` Frédéric Gava
2005-02-04 12:15                           ` Richard Jones
2005-02-04 12:46                             ` Marcin 'Qrczak' Kowalczyk
2005-02-04 12:51                             ` Gerd Stolpmann
2005-02-04 13:43                               ` Richard W. M. Jones
2005-02-04 16:01                                 ` Gerd Stolpmann
2005-02-04 16:52                                 ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-04 17:21                                   ` Frédéric Gava
2005-02-04 17:55                                     ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-04 16:48                               ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-04 12:15                           ` Olivier Andrieu
2005-02-04 16:42                         ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-04 10:58                     ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-04 17:27                       ` Damien Doligez
2005-02-04 17:59                         ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-04  1:17                   ` Michael Walter
2005-02-04 10:53                   ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-04 22:01                     ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-05 12:27                       ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-06  0:08                         ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-03 23:29               ` Richard Jones
2005-02-04  2:33               ` Jon Harrop
     [not found]                 ` <877e9a170502031856175260c8@mail.gmail.com>
2005-02-04  2:56                   ` Michael Walter
2005-02-04 10:26                     ` [Caml-list] The boon of static type checking Jon Harrop
2005-02-04 17:02                       ` Damien Doligez
2005-02-04 18:00                         ` Jon Harrop
2005-02-04 20:38                           ` Christophe TROESTLER
2005-02-04 21:42                             ` Jon Harrop
2005-02-04 22:11                               ` Christophe TROESTLER
2005-02-05  0:58                                 ` Jon Harrop
2005-02-05  1:52                                   ` Shivkumar Chandrasekaran
2005-02-07 18:47                                   ` Damien Doligez
2005-02-05  5:24                         ` Jacques Garrigue
2005-02-04 21:52                       ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-04 22:27                         ` Christophe TROESTLER
2005-02-05 10:00                           ` Remi Vanicat
2005-02-06 11:18                             ` Christophe TROESTLER
2005-02-04 22:55                         ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-06  0:02                           ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-06  0:56                             ` Erik de Castro Lopo
2005-02-06 10:03                               ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-06  1:34                             ` Richard Jones
2005-02-06  2:30                               ` Erik de Castro Lopo
2005-02-06  9:54                               ` Marcin 'Qrczak' Kowalczyk
2005-02-06 10:05                               ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-05 21:48                       ` Michael Walter
2005-02-06 10:22                       ` Radu Grigore
2005-02-06 12:16                         ` Gerd Stolpmann
2005-02-06 14:59                           ` skaller
2005-02-06 22:30                             ` Radu Grigore
2005-02-07  3:15                               ` Erik de Castro Lopo
2005-02-06 17:28                         ` Jon
2005-02-06 22:26                           ` Radu Grigore
2005-02-07  2:51                             ` skaller
2005-02-07  1:54                           ` skaller
2005-02-07  5:34                             ` Brian Hurt
2005-02-07  6:16                               ` Michael Walter
2005-02-07 14:58                                 ` Igor Pechtchanski
2005-02-12 15:22                                 ` Brian Hurt
2005-02-12 16:11                                   ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-12 18:47                                     ` Brian Hurt [this message]
2005-02-12 21:58                                       ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-12 17:06                                   ` skaller
2005-02-12 22:57                                   ` Michael Walter
2005-02-13  1:12                                     ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-13  1:51                                       ` Tony Edgin
2005-02-13  2:12                                         ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-13 10:26                                           ` Daniel Heck
2005-02-13 18:28                                             ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-13 20:52                                               ` Michael Walter
2005-02-13 21:42                                                 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-13 22:51                                                   ` Michael Walter
2005-02-13 23:59                                                     ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-14  0:11                                                       ` Michael Walter
2005-02-14  0:42                                                         ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-14  1:11                                                           ` Michael Walter
2005-02-14  1:46                                                             ` Michael Vanier
2005-02-14  1:57                                                               ` Michael Walter
2005-02-14 14:19                                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2005-02-14 14:36                                                                 ` [Caml-list] " Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-14  1:19                                                           ` [Caml-list] " Michael Walter
2005-02-14 17:29                                                           ` Martin Berger
2005-02-14 18:44                                                             ` skaller
2005-02-14 19:17                                                             ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-14  2:22                                                       ` skaller
2005-02-14  8:04                                                         ` Paul Snively
2005-02-14  9:33                                                         ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-14  9:39                                                         ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-14  2:10                                                   ` skaller
2005-02-13  2:27                                     ` Brian Hurt
2005-02-13  2:34                                       ` Michael Walter
2005-02-07 10:57                               ` Ville-Pertti Keinonen
2005-02-07 16:58                                 ` skaller
2005-02-07 17:24                                   ` Ville-Pertti Keinonen
2005-02-07 17:56                                   ` Paul Snively
2005-02-07 17:59                                   ` skaller
2005-02-07 17:30                                 ` skaller
2005-02-07 13:07                               ` Marcin 'Qrczak' Kowalczyk
2005-02-12 15:42                                 ` Brian Hurt
2005-02-07 17:42                               ` Ken Rose
2005-02-07  2:23                           ` skaller
2005-02-04  9:29                 ` [Caml-list] Estimating the size of the ocaml community Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-04 10:26                   ` Andreas Rossberg
2005-02-04 17:54                     ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-04 15:43                   ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-04 19:54                   ` Christophe TROESTLER
2005-02-04 20:20                     ` Karl Zilles
2005-02-04 22:07                     ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-04  9:41                 ` Richard Jones
2005-02-04 10:03                   ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-04 16:00                   ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-04 17:32                     ` sejourne_kevin
2005-02-04 18:46                       ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-05  1:49                     ` skaller
2005-02-04  8:55               ` Ville-Pertti Keinonen
2005-02-04  9:36                 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-04 10:30               ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-04 22:02                 ` Thomas Fischbacher
2005-02-05 13:14                   ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-05 16:37                     ` Why can't types and exceptions be nested (was: Re: [Caml-list] Estimating the size of the ocaml community) Richard Jones
2005-02-05 17:04                       ` Basile STARYNKEVITCH
2005-02-05 19:26                       ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-06  2:56                       ` skaller
2005-02-04 21:55             ` [Caml-list] Estimating the size of the ocaml community Basile STARYNKEVITCH
2005-02-03 19:04           ` ronniec95
2005-02-03 20:06           ` skaller
2005-02-03 20:50             ` chris.danx
2005-02-03 21:14               ` Jon Harrop
2005-02-03 21:34                 ` chris.danx
2005-02-03 22:07                   ` Bardur Arantsson
2005-02-03 21:47                 ` Nicolas Cannasse
2005-02-04  3:52               ` skaller
2005-02-04 16:12             ` Oliver Bandel
2005-02-05  2:04               ` skaller
2005-02-03 20:35           ` chris.danx
2005-02-03  8:36     ` sejourne_kevin
2005-02-03  8:39       ` Matthieu Brucher
2005-02-03 16:23       ` Olivier Pérès
2005-02-03 10:10     ` Stefano Zacchiroli
2005-02-03 16:44       ` Vincenzo Ciancia
2005-02-02 22:10 ` [Caml-list] " Kenneth Knowles
2005-02-02 22:40 ` Michael Jeffrey Tucker
2005-02-02 22:52 ` Richard Jones
2005-02-02 23:42 ` Nicolas Cannasse
2005-02-03  6:53 ` Evan Martin
2005-02-03  6:57 ` Eric Stokes
2005-02-03 20:53 ` chris.danx
2005-02-03 23:29 ` Sylvain LE GALL
2005-02-03 23:38 ` sejourne_kevin
2005-02-07  8:49 ` Sven Luther
2005-02-07  9:23 ` Johann Spies

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