From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.83]) by c5ff346549e7 (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2FFF25D5 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2018 20:33:28 +0000 (UTC) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.56,283,1539640800"; d="scan'208";a="357458518" Received: from sympa.inria.fr ([193.51.193.213]) by mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 26 Nov 2018 21:33:26 +0100 Received: by sympa.inria.fr (Postfix, from userid 20132) id D219382514; Mon, 26 Nov 2018 21:33:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104]) by sympa.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4754824CF for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2018 21:33:22 +0100 (CET) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.56,283,1539640800"; d="scan'208";a="286896484" Received: from abo-246-123-68.mrs.modulonet.fr (HELO hadrien) ([85.68.123.246]) by mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 26 Nov 2018 21:33:22 +0100 Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 21:33:21 +0100 (CET) From: Julia Lawall X-X-Sender: jll@hadrien To: Yawar Amin cc: oliver@first.in-berlin.de, Ocaml Mailing List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20181126101448.3ee5jgz4c6ulsbbr@first.in-berlin.de> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (DEB 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="8323329-356757916-1543264402=:2373" Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Build-/Installation-Tools - not enogh of them? Reply-To: Julia Lawall X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Sequence: 17147 Errors-to: caml-list-owner@inria.fr Precedence: list Precedence: bulk Sender: caml-list-request@inria.fr X-no-archive: yes List-Id: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --8323329-356757916-1543264402=:2373 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Mon, 26 Nov 2018, Yawar Amin wrote: > Hi Julia, I agree that we need to simplify the life of the user. But that's > the developer's job, not the language toolchain. Users should not need to > know or care about OCaml (ideally), they should download and run binary > packages or install them through their operating system package manager. > Since it's not possible for many projects to provide all possible system > binaries to users, the fallback should be for the user to build the package > with clear instructions that they'll need to install opam and then > `opam build` (e.g.). Like the original poster, I would very much prefer something based on make. julia > > Regards, > > Yawar > > On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 11:59 AM Julia Lawall wrote: > > > On Mon, 26 Nov 2018, Yawar Amin wrote: > > > If anyone would like to chime in and say that OCaml build and > packaging > > system is not that complicated, I would recommend first > looking > > at https://github.com/rizo/awesome-ocaml#package-management > . IMHO we need > > to seriously look at consolidating efforts around OPAM for > package > > management, packaging, building, testing and running. All the > serious > > language-specific package managers do it, it's a proven > strategy and it > > simplifies life for the developer. > > I find it odd that simplifying the life of the developer is the > highest > priority.  Doesn't one want to simplify the life of the user?  > Ideally the > user who has never touched OCaml before in his life? > > As a simple example, the web page for installing OCaml says that > the > recommended way to install ocaml is to install opam.  There is a > link to a > page explaining how to install opam.  How should anyone even > have > confidence that they will end up with OCaml after following > those > instructions?  Even step 1 of the installation process leads the > user to > confusion. > > julia > > > > > This could be a typical workflow: > > > > cd some-ocaml-proj > > opam install # Switches compiler if necessary and installs and > locally > > caches package dependencies > > opam build > > opam run # Automatically builds if necessary > > opam test # Ditto > > opam package # Ditto; --upload option can immediately upload > to opam > > opam doc # Builds documentation with ocamldoc or whatever > > opam login -u user -p password > > > > Regards, > > > > Yawar > > > > On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 5:15 AM Oliver Bandel > > > wrote: > >       Hello, > > > >       a while ago it looked like there were not enough build- > and > >       installation-tools > >       for OCaml. I remember some discussions about that. > > > >       Now it seems to me that there are a lot of them. > >       So, developers can pick the one they know about. > > > >       For all these tools there might be good reasons to use > them, and > >       those > >       developers who looked at these tools and choose them for > their > >       projects, will > >       know them well enough. > > > >       The situation differs, if one wants to package the > written > >       software, > >       and one needs to know many of those tools, just to > compile the > >       stuff. > >       So, when one just wants to compile and install some > software, > >       just for that, it would take much effort to learn the > different > >       build-tools. > > > >       So, packaging has become more complicated, even though > for the > >       developers > >       these tools may save time. > > > >       It would be nice if people who used one of the many new > building > >       tools > >       could provide a Makefile that allows just to type > >       "make" and "make install", instead of expecting everyone > who > >       wants to compile > >       the software to first learn just-another-build-tool. > > > >       Also it would be good, to mention early, which > installation > >       tools (make-dependencies) > >       are in use, and too mention needed packages (opam or > others) to > >       just build the stuff. > > > >       Thanks and regards, > >         Oliver Bandel > > > >       -- > >       Caml-list mailing list.  Subscription management and > archives: > >       https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > >       https://inbox.ocaml.org/caml-list > >       Forum: https://discuss.ocaml.org/ > >       Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > > > > > > > > -- > Caml-list mailing list.  Subscription management and archives: > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > https://inbox.ocaml.org/caml-list > Forum: https://discuss.ocaml.org/ > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > > > -- Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list https://inbox.ocaml.org/caml-list Forum: https://discuss.ocaml.org/ Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs --8323329-356757916-1543264402=:2373--