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d="asc'?scan'208";a="357599551" Received: from mout.kundenserver.de ([217.72.192.74]) by mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256; 27 Nov 2018 15:35:53 +0100 Received: from office1.lan.sumadev.de ([85.183.69.161]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mr8O8-1feqzv0enu-00oG9U for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 15:35:53 +0100 Received: from gerdbook.fritz.box (unknown [192.168.65.10]) by office1.lan.sumadev.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6903DDC05D for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 15:35:52 +0100 (CET) To: caml-list@inria.fr References: <20181126101448.3ee5jgz4c6ulsbbr@first.in-berlin.de> From: Gerd Stolpmann Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsDiBEHy0HQRBACcYHEsm7JzPUHqgutdqFQaGMUCqf9BUCHrr6hmUm732nN8tZt0IPxEaOdY XSyOp68Ygz56Aj3GiA29QdPzK9j2w5LAXNueFKT0zv64sa6XSgzUsFQ92xCSruQb86y0EYEJ iZ2h/E0hESPB47EJayB8UZfzH8s5OK2eUqIB6qIlXwCgkH94jEdriRgfXfn60SvWtPTPZwkD /3rNHqrHaPnzFoOQuksUQ3nMeKWQ7nLt/Mj0bxQRWBLKlzUuLluVzFBqYNv/HRXeycSdlcDZ XXP1Oy4Jh4U4qaOqute/AwmmEU9Gw86GGY8nvoOvjO0IVZIHLklGa2XVL4BxbwSd75LCDzA3 FIY+Y+0VBxHAIF8fX0B4qiIWFCO9BACWzimZjE//Z+cA8HsB+g4db6fFTCd/LFIyEmZ0/xqw 1JNJ25+jXUpeu2AtztmHl84qBm8WmTsrKgol64q2wjAdhVKVT7eiveh7fBM0LO4Yp8vI9GUv coPVNOcxiJDS8/R+SatlDYUI/t1YRPpeFzpW1eZaZFoRz2Ygg9Mo7Yxa/M0qR2VyZCBTdG9s cG1hbm4gPGFuZnJhZ2VAZ2VyZC1zdG9scG1hbm4uZGU+wmIEExECACIFAlIGfNQCGwMGCwkI BwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEJELcf9sI3d/1coAmgPA7ijPYJb7EGVab7FGrFyr 91qEAJ4y7VUo8nCajx/CkadAA0eYGyCQgM7ATQRSBn6TAQgAsrvDTWL9o3M4a3F+7T6wXy5X C4H0q+BTTPSB+T9KQXZNDcdGAq429YN96IhycCB+dBqATHrCd5288wqO4mH2T7DOX4YoB2i7 9MsW4VkJ937YBtlPghc86Pm8bkmLl5DhmmQv4NgRnOVUGP2RnCaFR5dp4GVztPga4wsAs7dI rYo9cPTwErwiJolyUCxwS1WuCFDmKfiFjKLKRRAS3xOai2Xsc20IW4qlSrOCuzev+uB/It6J 6Wxcw194Adw6AJ3EAhctbDPxbVNsxhBQgI9jhkjAWhG0h5p6BlVIgm6TobjwO5vOOesKEy5Y 0l9fwQ9iefmw0SXM+vd4EhIY73AKqwARAQABwkkEGBECAAkFAlIGfpMCGwwACgkQkQtx/2wj d39HxwCcDX5DkK/moIImwOJkCGzqK8BRxnIAnRM/skC22cz6/k/BvF6AkJl8e8D3 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 15:35:35 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Fzlvcee4PPuXAqid7iFHE6ciNeZQw5uF4" X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:SVgdeI+FBwp0M2thtuTQWfEX3BzkzagijLFoe2YwBYqIwxy42qv XwXDhyqjaXzNiBmVRQgv4Gy+7ir5YRFa2WUNVFoXxG45vgrX6rIKnVdViPs2kX4l41xwmJ6 J0wti6pXhRVq3+Dsqkg+fdflXxu9QuZSVXz7Utt8m/DP8RaKSE7n4LLT/lK84tM0/h3BbGj qXkdGLHdCcKgkPtSCpflw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:L4IoF3HcnIc=:FUqlCBKFnJmrkHtGlxFzwm iRsU+rQhVjoEnfOIrVyAyqOORLAJgELrrKyG5niPOcXFcTsenennmwfDhzsoVW09bg5wkmyCG fhBObXBl5HQQj+L2z31+xHOkbBsWFdWYmjTcWAPG6HhA8Us9DVFYvx66666etk/oxkpr7yuLN TYyk3HboMRHIGTHyDzKuCJE9taI4JFZdI55RwbP8u/gqb+CTfIVjnozg0Un2NYfxcfPlZ2Ej5 /Z0M62d6+HtAs3RqWoCe7SQWF/FHbDLdjE/YLkaAbX/ozDG+fm0/p8MeN2HG7tQsOZtHyJ9o9 cLgiYKf5Zv9Gk+J8uo0bFkA5qo5BYh30tdV1tDdH/G59jsaz3Ih2mb5hrn0u+g2F5DfPkyYV4 OV4DuTPrXWpz0TBRpeG/dRWkic9fuV5G9NJn2v4TOkaQNnKS1N9v0KTdqsGUNuPx4M2hT+yHt +NceAbRbuHgy5rxj2HBHUKEUA5nlGUeynqxZ/YD/m2LqG3v0lkJpK7A/x0CgljJ7nsNd8W8X7 qwY8uymbyTFKscvcSBxD5N6njx4DAMw7y7iKTZrp4WbocshIdg+p1FpPGZhN6NjqN+ixcgjRe yS+h9oSrkCt3oJZE0E8K/1nDfSH4/npAYKyBrxHgzIyR4EpgGPrnMN/Ww8d5OrZl9oTw3tTEC x4w95+jFUzM8A+dKmmg+FrmdsPr5fWVl+dpVy9YvLAd2a4oMDtHxdlxw5usmgBSL/6tKruuJ6 PRo+rUw5zfEL+RRQJt0Lk/JTdorGanzh9O/+fBp2aKpulH3etMJo4tXpv2ZlD+u1hMd1H6nTE 2FJC5SI Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Build-/Installation-Tools - not enogh of them? Reply-To: Gerd Stolpmann X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Sequence: 17173 Errors-to: caml-list-owner@inria.fr Precedence: list Precedence: bulk Sender: caml-list-request@inria.fr X-no-archive: yes List-Id: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Fzlvcee4PPuXAqid7iFHE6ciNeZQw5uF4 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="alecM2Hu0BNj6DEYFGb5lOtW3xJjQ5FbY"; protected-headers="v1" From: Gerd Stolpmann To: caml-list@inria.fr Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Build-/Installation-Tools - not enogh of them? References: <20181126101448.3ee5jgz4c6ulsbbr@first.in-berlin.de> In-Reply-To: --alecM2Hu0BNj6DEYFGb5lOtW3xJjQ5FbY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'd recommend to be pragmatic. Making it simple for the developer and for the end user are not goals that exclude each other. For example, we have here a mixed development team - only a few develop in OCaml, and the others are just consumers. The solution was to provide them a script that installs OCaml the recommended way for all the setups we need to consider. That script profits enormously from the capabilities of opam, and exploits these to make life simple for the consumers. Also, when I compare opam with other language-specific package managers (say, npm) there is no huge difference for the users. Once you get used to once of these managers, switching to another one is no big hurdle anymore. I wouldn't be concerned that much. Gerd Am 26.11.18 um 17:57 schrieb Julia Lawall: > > On Mon, 26 Nov 2018, Yawar Amin wrote: > >> If anyone would like to chime in and say that OCaml build and packagin= g >> system is not that complicated, I would recommend first looking >> at=A0https://github.com/rizo/awesome-ocaml#package-management .=A0IMHO= we need >> to seriously look at consolidating efforts around OPAM for package >> management, packaging, building, testing and running. All the serious >> language-specific package managers do it, it's a proven strategy and i= t >> simplifies life for the developer. > I find it odd that simplifying the life of the developer is the highest= > priority. Doesn't one want to simplify the life of the user? Ideally = the > user who has never touched OCaml before in his life? > > As a simple example, the web page for installing OCaml says that the > recommended way to install ocaml is to install opam. There is a link t= o a > page explaining how to install opam. How should anyone even have > confidence that they will end up with OCaml after following those > instructions? Even step 1 of the installation process leads the user t= o > confusion. > > julia > >> This could be a typical workflow: >> >> cd some-ocaml-proj >> opam=A0install # Switches compiler if necessary and installs and local= ly >> caches package dependencies >> opam=A0build >> opam=A0run # Automatically builds if necessary >> opam=A0test # Ditto >> opam=A0package # Ditto; --upload option can immediately upload to opam= >> opam=A0doc # Builds documentation with ocamldoc=A0or whatever >> opam=A0login -u user -p password >> >> Regards, >> >> Yawar >> >> On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 5:15 AM Oliver Bandel >> wrote: >> Hello, >> >> a while ago it looked like there were not enough build- and >> installation-tools >> for OCaml. I remember some discussions about that. >> >> Now it seems to me that there are a lot of them. >> So, developers can pick the one they know about. >> >> For all these tools there might be good reasons to use them, and= >> those >> developers who looked at these tools and choose them for their >> projects, will >> know them well enough. >> >> The situation differs, if one wants to package the written >> software, >> and one needs to know many of those tools, just to compile the >> stuff. >> So, when one just wants to compile and install some software, >> just for that, it would take much effort to learn the different >> build-tools. >> >> So, packaging has become more complicated, even though for the >> developers >> these tools may save time. >> >> It would be nice if people who used one of the many new building= >> tools >> could provide a Makefile that allows just to type >> "make" and "make install", instead of expecting everyone who >> wants to compile >> the software to first learn just-another-build-tool. >> >> Also it would be good, to mention early, which installation >> tools (make-dependencies) >> are in use, and too mention needed packages (opam or others) to >> just build the stuff. >> >> Thanks and regards, >> =A0 Oliver Bandel >> >> -- >> Caml-list mailing list.=A0 Subscription management and archives:= >> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list >> https://inbox.ocaml.org/caml-list >> Forum: https://discuss.ocaml.org/ >> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >> >> >> --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------ Gerd Stolpmann, Darmstadt, Germany gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de My OCaml site: http://www.camlcity.org Contact details: http://www.camlcity.org/contact.html Company homepage: http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de ------------------------------------------------------------ --alecM2Hu0BNj6DEYFGb5lOtW3xJjQ5FbY-- --Fzlvcee4PPuXAqid7iFHE6ciNeZQw5uF4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJb/VZCAAoJEAaM4b9ZLB5T0FUH+gNgpUDtwMDNPa6BbANFgCbw QVePr6m9VyGospwMqcHP+5Vq7EGkQ/trh6ukz/CbS73j9dRnXoUD8CGYn0M7n0In R3oZ9qx8ewo03I1ha7fG0lbvXNi6//P8kahB7AO+YxW6IGgsMA8HjqaHXTstTmxc 5D2+xk4wgGdKEmbRBMUqj42GMuxY8E1HCOKMMwrN7mCXjDumhFCLvub/k+g5cJ/J hFRXebQpdveOa1ODUipzG7KOKUXEsHZtJW4CiRn2fI1bxph0CLh4CXZL/V1uolzT TscoDJIG+T1E5IJLeFIsrLcECxAd9liXqnG5PwGQsobt+tb8RoClYBgzfjcXpiM= =AMwj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Fzlvcee4PPuXAqid7iFHE6ciNeZQw5uF4--