[OSR] Caml Community Code

[OSR] Caml Community Code

[Jonathan Bryant]

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List,

Despite all the great ideas on the [OSR] threads, we seem to be getting
nowhere and talking ourselves to death bickering about implementation
details of code that hasn't even been written yet.  I think the only thing
we can agree on is that tools for use by the community should be written by
the community.  Because of that, we need to start writing them: the best way
to find out what works is to try.

I've created a SourceForge project called Caml Community Code here (
http://sourceforge.net/projects/camlcode) where we can put any code for
community OCaml tools.  The fact that we can't hack the OCaml language
itself (due to French copyright law) seems to have unfortunately caused the
community to not hack together on other tools _for_ the language.  With this
project everyone can hack on the tools we'll (hopefully) end up using every
day, rather than having INRIA or one person try to build something that
satisfies everyone.  If you have code for tools (I know someone at least has
some code for a package manager), please put it in the repository so we can
all see and work on it _as as community_.

Regarding the package manager discussion, what we need is a few functioning
prototypes.  Later we can go back and cherry pick features we like and merge
them down to just two to develop a little more, and finally pick one.  I
also think we should have one CamlP4 grammar with all the community's agreed
upon "standard" syntax extensions (sort of a "new revised" syntax?), a set
of "standard" ocamlbuild plugins, and "standard" interfaces (XML parser,
etc.), all of which can be stored in the project as well.

I was waiting for the project to get approved before sending this out (it
just came through this morning), so I'll go ahead and make a temporary
directory layout.

--Jonathan

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Re: [Caml-list] [OSR] Caml Community Code

[Romain Beauxis]

Le Thursday 31 January 2008 16:57:24 Jonathan Bryant, vous avez écrit :
> List,

	Hi !

> Despite all the great ideas on the [OSR] threads, we seem to be getting
> nowhere and talking ourselves to death bickering about implementation
> details of code that hasn't even been written yet.  I think the only thing
> we can agree on is that tools for use by the community should be written by
> the community.  Because of that, we need to start writing them: the best
> way to find out what works is to try.
>
> I've created a SourceForge project called Caml Community Code here (
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/camlcode) where we can put any code for
> community OCaml tools.  The fact that we can't hack the OCaml language
> itself (due to French copyright law) seems to have unfortunately caused the
> community to not hack together on other tools _for_ the language.  With
> this project everyone can hack on the tools we'll (hopefully) end up using
> every day, rather than having INRIA or one person try to build something
> that satisfies everyone.  If you have code for tools (I know someone at
> least has some code for a package manager), please put it in the repository
> so we can all see and work on it _as as community_.

It's a good idea, but it seems a duplicate of the ocamlcore.org on-going 
server announced by Sylvain..

So rather than creating another instance, it should be better to join efforts 
together, don't you think ?


Romain

Re: [Caml-list] [OSR] Caml Community Code

[Jonathan Bryant]

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On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Romain Beauxis <toots@rastageeks.org>
wrote:

> Le Thursday 31 January 2008 16:57:24 Jonathan Bryant, vous avez écrit :


[...]


>
> It's a good idea, but it seems a duplicate of the ocamlcore.org on-going
> server announced by Sylvain..


>
> So rather than creating another instance, it should be better to join
> efforts
> together, don't you think ?
>

I did not see that message in the midst of that thread.  On the one hand, I
don't want to duplicate efforts.  On the other, SourceForge has a host of
development resources available, plus builtin user management, etc.  It
would be nice to have our own site, but there doesn't seem to be much at all
up yet.  I'd be in favor of having something that's working _now_ as opposed
to something that's going the be amazing ... in a few months ... whenever we
get it up ...

Sylvan, what are your thoughts?  The last thing I want is two "competing"
sites...

--Jonathan

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Re: [OSR] Caml Community Code

[Sylvain Le Gall]

Hello,

On 31-01-2008, Jonathan Bryant <watersofmemory@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Le Thursday 31 January 2008 16:57:24 Jonathan Bryant, vous avez =E9crit :
>
>
>>
>> It's a good idea, but it seems a duplicate of the ocamlcore.org on-going
>> server announced by Sylvain..
>
>>
>> So rather than creating another instance, it should be better to join
>> efforts
>> together, don't you think ?
>>
>
> I did not see that message in the midst of that thread.  On the one hand, I
> don't want to duplicate efforts.  On the other, SourceForge has a host of
> development resources available, plus builtin user management, etc.  It
> would be nice to have our own site, but there doesn't seem to be much at al=
> l
> up yet.  I'd be in favor of having something that's working _now_ as oppose=
> d
> to something that's going the be amazing ... in a few months ... whenever w=
> e
> get it up ...
>
> Sylvan, what are your thoughts?  The last thing I want is two "competing"
> sites...
>

I am not the kind of guy waiting "a few months" for doing things. In
fact, the host is up and running. It already run a gforge and should be
available to the community (in fact, you can already create a project).

Stefano, Romain and Samuel propose to help me to set it up. For now, i
have worked alone, due to a complicated web/email set up. At this
moment, i am ready to let this three people really help me (since 2
days, i was doing grunt work on the server). 

We have decided to delay the announce of the availability of the server,
because we need some extra test, to check everything is working (list,
bug tracking et al). 

BUT, if you are willing to help, there is some basic task you can do,
who should help us a lot:
* create a scm plugin to gforge to be able to use hg/git/darcs (copy and
 paste the svn/cvs plugin)
* create a nice gforge theme with a caml for the website (i think you can have
 a look at caml.inria.fr)
* later you can help us to test things
* help us to create a "terms and conditions" for the website
* ...

If you don't believe me, go to:
http://www.ocamlcore.org

BUT DON'T REGISTER/ASK FOR PROJECT FOR NOW. I am not sure the site is
working perfectly...

There will be an official annoucement when the whole website will be up
and running.

Contact me privately if you want more information.

Regards,
Sylvain Le Gall

Re: [OSR] Caml Community Code

[Sylvain Le Gall]

On 31-01-2008, Sylvain Le Gall <sylvain@le-gall.net> wrote:
> BUT DON'T REGISTER/ASK FOR PROJECT FOR NOW. I am not sure the site is
> working perfectly...
>

Indeed, i already discovered a bug... Need some more works ;-)
(lists.ocamlcore.org doesn't have a DNS resolution)

Regards,
Sylvain Le Gall

Re: [Caml-list] Re: [OSR] Caml Community Code

[Jonathan Bryant]

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Sylvan,

>
> I am not the kind of guy waiting "a few months" for doing things. In
> fact, the host is up and running. It already run a gforge and should be
> available to the community (in fact, you can already create a project).


Not intended a slight towards you.  Apologies if that is what you inferred.


>
>
> Stefano, Romain and Samuel propose to help me to set it up. For now, i
> have worked alone, due to a complicated web/email set up. At this
> moment, i am ready to let this three people really help me (since 2
> days, i was doing grunt work on the server).


I'd like to be the fourth.


>
>
> We have decided to delay the announce of the availability of the server,
> because we need some extra test, to check everything is working (list,
> bug tracking et al).


I understand.  Exactly the same reason I delayed announcing until I had the
SF project set up.


>
>
> BUT, if you are willing to help, there is some basic task you can do,
> who should help us a lot:
> * create a scm plugin to gforge to be able to use hg/git/darcs (copy and
>  paste the svn/cvs plugin)
> * create a nice gforge theme with a caml for the website (i think you can
> have
>  a look at caml.inria.fr)
> * later you can help us to test things
> * help us to create a "terms and conditions" for the website
> * ...
>

I'll look at it.


>
> If you don't believe me, go to:
> http://www.ocamlcore.org


I did this morning and all I got was the "It Works!" page, but I see that it
is now up and running.


> <http://www.ocamlcore.org>
>
> BUT DON'T REGISTER/ASK FOR PROJECT FOR NOW. I am not sure the site is
> working perfectly...
>
> There will be an official annoucement when the whole website will be up
> and running.
>
> Contact me privately if you want more information.


Will do.

--Jonathan


>
> Regards,
> Sylvain Le Gall
>
> _______________________________________________
> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management:
> http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list
> Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
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> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs
>

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Re: [OSR] Caml Community Code

[Sylvain Le Gall]

On 01-02-2008, Christopher L Conway <cconway@cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
> Jon,
>
> So far as I can tell, there is exactly one person on this mailing list
> who is interested in forking OCaml. So the relevant questions is: are
> *you* going to be forking OCaml? I would strongly urge you not to.
>

Funny, on the contrary, i would strongly urge Jon to do it... He asks
some many times for a fork when most of the people i know are not
interested in -- to my mind. I think it is important that he tries to do
it because:
* he will be able to face the huge amount of work done by the INRIA
* he will have to create a community around his fork
* he will have to handle many differents arch -- some of them pretty
 exotic
* he will stop sending mail about it

Maybe after considering all this, he will simply stop to ask for a fork.

I think forking is a *BAD* thing to do -- but if Jon really think it is
worth, i really think he should try rather than asking for it in half of
the mail he sends.

<ask for pardon>
I hereby declare that this will be my only mail about this subject.
</ask for pardon>

Regards,
Sylvain Le Gall

[OSR] Caml Community Code

[Jonathan Bryant]

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List,

Despite all the great ideas on the [OSR] threads, we seem to be getting
nowhere and talking ourselves to death bickering about implementation
details of code that hasn't even been written yet.  I think the only thing
we can agree on is that tools for use by the community should be written by
the community.  Because of that, we need to start writing them: the best way
to find out what works is to try.

I've created a SourceForge project called Caml Community Code here (
http://sourceforge.net/projects/camlcode) where we can put any code for
community OCaml tools.  The fact that we can't hack the OCaml language
itself (due to French copyright law) seems to have unfortunately caused the
community to not hack together on other tools _for_ the language.  With this
project everyone can hack on the tools we'll (hopefully) end up using every
day, rather than having INRIA or one person try to build something that
satisfies everyone.  If you have code for tools (I know someone at least has
some code for a package manager), please put it in the repository so we can
all see and work on it _as as community_.

Regarding the package manager discussion, what we need is a few functioning
prototypes.  Later we can go back and cherry pick features we like and merge
them down to just two to develop a little more, and finally pick one.  I
also think we should have one CamlP4 grammar with all the community's agreed
upon "standard" syntax extensions (sort of a "new revised" syntax?), a set
of "standard" ocamlbuild plugins, and "standard" interfaces (XML parser,
etc.), all of which can be stored in the project as well.

I was waiting for the project to get approved before sending this out (it
just came through this morning), so I'll go ahead and make a temporary
directory layout.

--Jonathan

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