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* Re: coinduction
@ 2000-10-28 19:39 Mamuka Jibladze
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Mamuka Jibladze @ 2000-10-28 19:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: categories

Hi all,

although I cannot say much on coinduction itself, I would like to mention
one possible point of view on "universal coalgebra" commented on by Dusko at
the end of his message:

> PS i have a great appreciation for jan rutten's work on
> coinduction, but it seems to me that the title of *universal
> coalgebra* is a bit exaggerated. universal algebra does not
> dualize. by design, it is meant to be model theory of algebraic
> theories. what would be the "coalgebraic theories", leading to
> coalgebras as their models? what would their functorial
> semantics look like?  (implicitly, these questions are already
> in manes' book.)
>
> and then, moving from coalgebraic theories to comonads, like
> from algebraic theories to monads, should presumably yield an
> HSP-like characterization for the categories of (comonad)
> coalgebras. but coalgebras for a comonad over a topos usually
> form just another topos.
>
> i may be missing something essential here, but then i do stand
> to be corrected.

I would say that, although there is no straightforward dualization, there
might be a "hidden" one. In my opinion, comonads can sometimes play the role
of "strengtheners" or "enrichers" for monads, so that while monads can be
viewed as a "substrate for structure", comonads are "substrate for
semantics".

Rather than trying to give sense to this vague phrase, let me give three
illustrations.

-1-
S. Kobayashi,
Monad as modality.
Theoret. Comput. Sci. 175 (1997), no. 1, 29--74.

The starting point in that paper is the monad semantics by Moggi.
It seems that for computer-scientific purposes strength of the monad is too
restrictive a requirement, and the author modifies the semantics by assuming
strength of the monad *only*with* respect*to*a*comonad*. This means that the
monad and comonad distribute in such a way that the monad descends to a
strong monad on the category of coalgebras over the comonad. Under the
Curry-Howard correspondence this yields an interesting intuitionistic
version of the modal system S4. A realizability interpretation is also
given.

-2-
Freyd, Yetter, Lawvere, Kock, Reyes and others have studied "atoms", or
infinitesimal objects - objects I in a cartesian closed category with the
property that the exponentiation functor I->(_) has a right adjoint. This
induces a monad, which cannot be strong in a nontrivial way, just as in the
previous example. There is a "largest possible" subcategory over which it is
strong, namely the category of I-discrete objects, i.e. those objects X for
which the adjunction unit from X to I->X is iso. In good cases the inclusion
of this subcategory is comonadic. As Bill pointed out, one might view
Cantor's idea of set theory as a case of this: the universe of sets is the
largest - necessarily "discrete" - part of "analysis" over which the latter
can be "enriched" (well, this is awfully inaccurate, sorry -- consider it as
a metaphor).

-3-
In differential homotopical algebra, there was developed a notion of torsor
(principal homogeneous object) which works in a non-cartesian monoidal
category. This notion requires not just a (right) action of a monoid M on an
object P, but also a "cartesianizer" in form of a left coaction of a
comonoid C on P which commutes with the action, and is principal in an
appropriate sense. It turns out that the monoid and the comonoid enter in an
entirely symmetric way. In the monoidal category of differential graded
modules over a commutative ring, principal C-M-objects are classified by
s.c. twisting cochains from C to M. Moreover in that category, for a monoid
M there is a universal choice of P and C given by the Eilenberg-Mac Lane bar
construction, and for a comonoid C there is a universal choice of P and M,
given by the Adams' cobar construction. I would be grateful for a reference
to a version of these for general monads/comonads.

Regards,
Mamuka




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: coinduction
@ 2000-10-30 23:09 Jesse F. Hughes
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Jesse F. Hughes @ 2000-10-30 23:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Categories@Mta. Ca

Dusko Pavlovic <dusko@kestrel.edu> writes:

> 
> > I have always considered the statement regarding existence of a
> > unique function f to be the principle of recursion.
> 
> the recursion schema, as defined by godel in 1930, is a bit
> stronger: g is allowed to depend on n, not only on f(n).

Yes, I overlooked that point. But, is that principle any stronger than
the principle you called induction?  I think it isn't, given products
in our category.  

Let N be the initial successor algebra.  Let c be in X and 
g:N x X -> X. To define a function f such that
f(0) = c
f(n+1) = g(n,f(n)),
I just have to cook up the appropriate structure map for N x X.  I
think that
<s o p_1,g> + <0,c>: (N x X) + 1 -> N x X
does it (p_1 is the projection map).  Let <k,f>: N -> N x X be the
unique function guaranteed by initiality.  One can show that f
satisfies the equations above.  (Along the way, one shows that k is
the identity.)

(To add other parameters, one needs exponentials.  For instance,
given
h:A -> X
g:A x N x X -> X
to show that there is a unique f such that
f(a,0) = h(a)
f(a,n+1) = g(a,n,f(a,n))
requires a structure map for (X x N)^A, if I'm not mistaken.)

This shows that Godel's principle of recursion is equivalent to the
statement "N is an initial algebra".  I.e., it is equivalent to the
statement that there is a unique f such that
f(0) = c
f(n+1) = g(f(n)).

> > The principle of
> > induction is, in my mind, the weaker principle that says that if a
> > property holds of 0 and is closed under successor, then it holds of N.
> 
> in a topos, this principle is equivalent with the above schema. and
> the schema itself, of course, just means that [0,s] : 1+N --> N is
> initial: any algebra [c,g] : 1+X --> X induces a unique homomorphism
> f : N-->X. using the exponents, we do recursion.

I am confused by this statement.  My principle of induction for
successor algebras [0_X,s_X]:1+X -> X is this: For all subsets P of X,
if 0_X is in P and P is closed under s_X, then P = X.  (Categorically,
an algebra satisfies the principle of induction if it contains no
proper subalgebras.)

Consider the successor algebra X={x}, with the evident structure map 
[0_X,s_X]:1+X -> X.  
Surely, for every subset P of X, if 0_X is in P and P is closed under
s_X, then P = X.  In other words, the algebra X satisfies the principle
of induction in the sense that I gave.  This seems to contradict the
equivalence you mention.  What am I overlooking?

> as i said last time, induction and recursion have been in heavy use
> for so long, that they really don't leave much space for redefining,
> even for the sake of symmetry with coinduction and corecursion.

I quite agree, but I didn't redefine induction, as far as I am
concerned.  I learned that induction was the proof principle as I
stated it and that recursion is the principle regarding the definition
of functions many years ago.  I think that our disagreement in
definitions is a disagreement that one will find elsewhere in the
literature.  I also suppose that the term coinduction (as I use it)
arose from the definition of induction that I offered.

Are others unfamiliar with the distinction between induction and
recursion as I drew it?  I assumed it was a more or less conventional
distinction.  If my use is really idiosyncratic, then I'd be happy to
drop it.

-- 
Jesse Hughes
"Such behaviour is exclusively confined to functions invented by
mathematicians for the sake of causing trouble."
 -Albert Eagle's _A Practical Treatise on Fourier's Theorem_



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: coinduction
@ 2000-10-27 20:40 Jesse F. Hughes
  2000-10-30  3:38 ` coinduction Dusko Pavlovic
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Jesse F. Hughes @ 2000-10-27 20:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Categories@Mta. Ca


I'm afraid that I've never quite understood the notion of guarded
equations, so I cannot comment on much of what you wrote below without
some more time and more thought.  Let me make a few introductory
comments and perhaps I can say more later.

Dusko Pavlovic <dusko@kestrel.edu> writes:

> Al Vilcius asks:
> 
> > > can anyone explain coinduction?
> > > in what sense it dual to induction?
> 
> and most people reply along the lines of:
> 
> > The principle of induction says that initial algebras have no
> > non-trivial subalgebras.
> 
> > Coinduction says, dually, that the final coalgebra has no
> non-trivial
> > quotients.
> 
> but wouldn't it be nice to keep the standard definition of
> induction, which says that the equations
> 
>     f(0) = c
>     f(n+1) = g(f(n))
> 
> determine a unique f, given c and g? this is the definition that
> most first year students study, and many programmers use every
> day, usually without the slightest idea about subalgebras, or
> triviality. do we really gain anything by replacing this simple
> scheme by the higher-order statement about all subalgebras? ok,
> we do get the appearance of symmetry between induction and
> coinduction. but is the higher-order statement about quotients
> really the friendliest form of coinduction, suitable to be taken
> as the definition?

I have always considered the statement regarding existence of a unique
function f to be the principle of recursion.  The principle of
induction is, in my mind, the weaker principle that says that if a
property holds of 0 and is closed under successor, then it holds of N.
I identify "properties" with subobjects here.  In terms of
homomorphisms, this is equivalent to the "uniqueness part" of
initiality (assuming that our category has some epi-mono factorization
property, I suppose).

One may question whether it's appropriate to take the principle of
induction to apply to all properties or only those properties which
are definable in some sense -- I guess you've done as much when you
refer to the "higher-order statement" above.  I'm not sure to what
extent my use of all subalgebras differs from your quantification over
all g and c in the statement of recursion above, however.

When we separate the properties of induction and recursion in the way
I mention above, by the way, then (conceptually) induction is a
property of those algebras A in which each element is picked out by a
(not necessarily unique) term of our language.  I.e., those A for
which there is an epi from the initial algebra to A.  Hence, induction
in my sense is weaker than recursion (induction in your sense).

Regarding whether a statement about quotients is really the
"friendliest form" of coinduction, I'll have to agree that it is not,
if one's aim is to describe coinduction as it is commonly used.  I
chose to describe it in the terms above because these terms make clear
the "co" in "coinduction".

I did gloss over details that ensure the equivalence of the "familiar
principle" of coinduction and the principle regarding quotients.  If
the base category has kernel pairs of coequalizers and G preserves
weak pullbacks, then a G-coalgebra A has no non-trivial quotients iff the
equality relation is the largest coalgebraic relation on A (I hope
I've got that right).  Inasmuch as the principle I called coinduction
is not always equivalent to the familiar principle, I was being a bit
misleading.  However, I think it is the right approach if one's goal
is to explain the relationship between induction and coinduction.

I'm not sure that the principle regarding the equality relation is
what you'd call coinduction, however.  I think that the principle you
have in mind is what I'd call "corecursion".  Analogous to the
distinction between recursion and induction, I omit the existence part
of finality in what I call "coinduction" and I use the uniqueness
part.
 
> 
> and then, moving from coalgebraic theories to comonads, like
> from algebraic theories to monads, should presumably yield an
> HSP-like characterization for the categories of (comonad)
> coalgebras. but coalgebras for a comonad over a topos usually
> form just another topos.
> 

But, there *are* such characterizations of categories of coalgebras,
if I understand your point.  Namely, a full subcategory of coalgebras
is closed under coproducts, codomains of epis and domains of regular
monos iff it is the class of coalgebras satisfying a "coequation" --
given, here, some boundedness conditions on the functor so that things
work out well.  For brevity's sake, and because you're likely familiar
with this result, I'll omit details on what a coequation is and how
it's satisfied.

By the way, about that last statement regarding coalgebras "usually"
forming a topos:  Doesn't one need that the endofunctor preserve
pullbacks, or am I missing something?

-- 
Jesse Hughes
"The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple.  After that, it's all
learned."                             -Bruce Ediger on X interfaces
"Nipples are intuitive, my ass!"      -Quincy Prescott Hughes



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* coinduction
@ 2000-10-20 12:57 Al Vilcius
  2000-10-20 15:35 ` coinduction Hendrik Tews
                   ` (4 more replies)
  0 siblings, 5 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Al Vilcius @ 2000-10-20 12:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Categories@Mta. Ca

can anyone explain coinduction?
in what sense it dual to induction?
does it relate to the basic picture for a NNO?
is there a (meaningful) concept of co-recursion?
what would be the appropriate internal language?
how is it used to prove theorems?

Al Vilcius
al.r@vilcius.com





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

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Thread overview: 10+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2000-10-28 19:39 coinduction Mamuka Jibladze
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2000-10-30 23:09 coinduction Jesse F. Hughes
2000-10-27 20:40 coinduction Jesse F. Hughes
2000-10-30  3:38 ` coinduction Dusko Pavlovic
2000-10-20 12:57 coinduction Al Vilcius
2000-10-20 15:35 ` coinduction Hendrik Tews
2000-10-20 22:01 ` coinduction Jesse F. Hughes
2000-10-21  1:19 ` coinduction Charles Wells
2000-10-26 23:49 ` coinduction Dusko Pavlovic
2000-10-30 15:55 ` coinduction Jeremy Gibbons

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