categories - Category Theory list
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: John Longley <jrl@inf.ed.ac.uk>
To: categories@mta.ca
Subject: Re: Realizability and Partial Combinatory Algebras
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 10:58:29 +0000 (GMT)	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <1045047509.3e4a28d50d86b@mail.inf.ed.ac.uk> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1030207232203.24941A-100000@siskin.dpmms.cam.ac.uk>


Peter Johnstone wrote:

> However, the point I was trying to make was that the
> construction of the quasitopos of A-valued assemblies, and the proof
> that its effectivization is a topos, make no use whatever of the
> condition that Sxy is always defined.

As far as I can see, Peter Johnstone is essentially correct.
Even without the condition "sxy is defined", Asm(A) is locally cartesian
closed (though the correct construction of local exponentials is not quite
the "obvious" one), and its exact/regular completion is a topos. Peter
Lietz's argument (which is the one that occurred to me too) seems to fail
at his point 1: to get a realizer for the mediating morphism from the
true local exponential to the object he constructs, one actually needs
the condition "sxy is defined". For the record, in Peter L's example,
the true exponential m^m in the slice over Nabla(P(A)), for instance,
may be described as follows:
	   |T| = P(A)
   [|X \in T|] = {a | for all b \in X. akb \in X}
(where k plays the role of an arbitrary element which forces the "thunked"
operation X -> X to manifest itself.)

I think I can now appreciate Peter Johnstone's point of view, though it
seems to me that to follow it through consistently would require some
substantial changes to the way one develops the whole theory.
For instance, in defining the category Asm(A), one really ought to say
e.g. that an element r \in A *tracks* f : X -> Y iff

   for all x \in X, a \in A.  a \in [|x \in X|] => rka \in [|f(x) \in Y|]

so as not to get mired down in case splits on whether X is inhabited,
which (I humbly submit) are here an abomination and totally out of keeping
with the spirit of realizability and topos theory in general. [Classically,
of course, the above definition leads to exactly the same category as the
usual one.] One can then do everything else in the same way, and it all
works out - e.g. there is a perfectly respectable tripos over A (with Heyting
implication defined as in the object T above), and the theory of internal
categories such as PER also works fine.

I don't think one can really call this "standard realizability" any more,
in the sense of being derived from (a simple abstraction of) Kleene's
realizability interpretation. Of course, one might say that doesn't matter
much, but for my part, I feel one loses something of the directness of
standard realizability, where application in the PCA corresponds immediately
to function application in Asm(A) and also to Modus Ponens in the logic.
There is also of course the evident analogy with the Brouwer-Heyting-
Kolmogorov interpretation of intuitionistic logic. If one adopts the above
alternative, there is less of a clear intuition about what the significance
of application in the PCA is.

However, no sooner has one reached this point, than one notices that
doing realizability of the above kind over A is just tantamount to doing
standard realizability over the "derived PCA" a la Freyd [?], where
application is defined by a.b ~ akb. Indeed, one has the following easy
proposition:

   For any PCA A (where we don't assume "sxy defined"), there is an
   applicatively equivalent PCA B (in the sense of my thesis) in which
   sxy is always defined. In particular, the realizability topos on A
   (constructed as outlined above) is equivalent to the (usual) standard
   realizability topos on B.

   Proof: Let B have the same set as A, and define application in B by
   a.b ~ akb. It's easy to construct K,S \in B such that K.a.b = a,
   S.a.b.c ~ a.c.(b.c), and with a little additional care one can arrange
   that S.a.b is always defined. Now, application in B is realized in A
   by \lambda ab. akb (constructed as normal); and application in A is
   realized in B by i=skk, since i.a.b = ikakb = kakb = ab.
   The equivalence of toposes can now most easily be seen by noticing that
   the categories Asm(A), Asm(B) are equal on the nose.

So, it seems it's largely just a question of taste whether one adopts the
definedness condition. For my money, I would rather adopt this condition,
retain the directness of standard realizability and all the familiar
constructions, do all the proofs in an "effective" spirit, and know that
I'm not sacrificing any generality. Who could ask for anything more?

(Quite a lot of the above was new to me, and was all good fun!)

Finally, I'd like to remark briefly on the other issue in the definition
of PCA, which Jaap, Peter L and myself have now all mentioned: whether
one should require sxyz ~ xz(yz) or just sxyz >~ xz(yz). I know of no
reason not to adopt the latter, more general condition, and it seems
to me much more in the spirit of realizability: e.g. one never cares if
a realizer for a morphism assemblies is defined on more elements than
required. On the other hand, I do not have any particular use yet for
any of the extra examples admitted by this definition.

An interesting case in point is Kleene's second model, K_2. It is a PCA
in the sense of the axiom with ~, but the "natural" construction of an
element s gives one that only satisfies the axiom with >~. Some artificial
hackery is needed to produce an element s satisfying the stronger axiom -
and of course, my attitude would be: why bother?

Best wishes,
John





  parent reply	other threads:[~2003-02-12 10:58 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 10+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2003-02-07  9:57 Realizibility " jvoosten
2003-02-07 23:43 ` Prof. Peter Johnstone
2003-02-09 19:09   ` Peter Lietz
2003-02-12 10:58   ` John Longley [this message]
2003-02-13 17:34     ` Realizability " Peter Lietz
2003-02-17 15:27       ` John Longley
2003-02-18 11:48 jvoosten
2003-02-18 18:34 ` Peter Lietz
2003-02-20 16:44 jvoosten
2003-02-21 15:03 ` Peter Lietz

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=1045047509.3e4a28d50d86b@mail.inf.ed.ac.uk \
    --to=jrl@inf.ed.ac.uk \
    --cc=categories@mta.ca \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).