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From: Martin Escardo <mhe@dcs.st-and.ac.uk>
To: Peter Freyd <pjf@saul.cis.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Reality check
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 12:56:37 +0100 (BST)	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <14726.47861.392236.332274@mosstowie.dcs.st-and.ac.uk> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <200007311544.e6VFijI18118@saul.cis.upenn.edu>

Here are a comment and a question regarding the interesting reality
check.

Peter Freyd wrote, among other things:
 > Take the elements of  [-1,1]  to be named by infinite
 > sequences of _signed_ binary digits, that is -1, 0, +1.
 > 
 > [...]
 > 
 > The signed binary
 > expansions  .+1 -1  and  .0 +1  describe the same number, to wit, 1/4.

In a way, the finitary identities

      +1 -1  ==  0 +1  

together with their symmetric versions

      -1 +1  ==  0 -1  

capture *all* identifications made by the quotient map

     3^N  -->>  [-1, 1]

      s  |-->    [[s]] = s1 / 2  +  s2 / 4  + ... +  sn / 2^n + ... 

that takes a signed-digit binary expansion s to the number [[s]] that
it denotes. Here 3 = {-1,0,+1}, and I am supposing initially that
[-1,1] is already given.

Let === be the kernel of the quotient map:

     s === t  iff [[s]] = [[t]].

Let == be the least equivalence relation on 3^N such that

     s +1 -1 t == s 0 +1 t
and
     s -1 +1 t == s 0 -1 t,

where s ranges over 3^* and t over 3^N. 

It is easy to see that == is coarser than ===.  It is *strictly*
coarser as, for example, we have that

	-1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 ... === 1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 ..., 

because both sequences denote the number zero, but === cannot be
replaced by ==, because these two sequences cannot be made equal by
finitely many applications of the identities.

HOWEVER, if one endows 3^N with the Cantor topology (the product of
the discrete topology of 3), then the relation === is the topological
closure of the relation == in the product space 3^N x 3^N. 
That is, all we need to do in order to get === from == is to add
limits. 

Thus, === can be defined in a topologico-combinatorial way *without*
reference to a previously existing interval [-1,1]. Therefore we have
a simple direct (classical) construction of the Euclidean interval
[-1,1] as a topological quotient of 3^N by an easily defined
equivalence relation of finite character.

(NB. Of course, === has to be closed, because [-1,1] is Hausdorff and
the semantic map is continuous (and hence a topological quotient map,
as it is a surjection of compact Hausdorff spaces). Thus, another way
of putting the above is to say that == fails to be === only by failing
to be closed.)

Moreover, there is a *computable* idempotent function 

	  f : 3^N x 3^N --> 3^N x 3^N 

with the property that if f(s,t)=(s',t') then 

     (1) s===s', t===t' and

     (2) if s===t then s' = t' 

            (Yes, I mean this; s' and t' are the *same* sequence.)

As this may sound puzzling at first sight, let me observe that it
doesn't help in effectively deciding equality, nor does it show that
numbers would have canonical representatives, because norm(s,s)=(s,s)
is consistent with the above specification.

Such a function f(s,t) is computed by a finite automaton that tries to
apply the two identities to make s and t equal, by scanning longer and
longer finite prefixes of s and t, where this attempt fails at some
finite stage if and only if s and t denote distinct numbers.  At most
n+2 digits of input have to be scanned in order to produce n digits of
output.

(Reference: "Effective and sequential definition by cases on the reals
via infinite signed-digit numerals", Volume 13 of Electronic Notes in
Theoretical Computer Science, 1998.)

---------
Question: 
---------

Can we replace topology by coinduction in the formulations (and
proofs) of the above properties?

Martin Escardo 



  reply	other threads:[~2000-08-01 11:56 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 5+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2000-07-31 15:44 Peter Freyd
2000-08-01 11:56 ` Martin Escardo [this message]
2000-08-03 20:28 ` Andrej.Bauer
2000-08-04 10:23   ` Martin Escardo
2000-08-04 11:16     ` Alex Simpson

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