i did, of course, miss something (as i suspected before hitting return, but didn't resist :)

but it seems that fixing the error makes the benabou/lawvere link even nicer. (even if i am still missing something i am sure that the link is there.)

the one-to-one correspondence between definable subfibrations of E---->B  and the "comprehensions" E---->Sub(B) stands. the claim that the subfibration C---->B is obtained by pullback is wrong, because we don't want to pull back along the "truth" into Sub(B) but along the "comprehension".

remember how lawvere defined comprehension of the bifibration E---->B to be (in equivalent to hyperdoctrines) the right adjoint of the cartesian functor Arr(B)---->E  mapping (i--f-->j) to f_!(top_i). [[i even introduced Arr(B) in the previous message but oversimplified and didn't use it.]]

now i can of course restrict that functor to Sub(B)---->E. a definable subfibration C of E, determines a right adjoint E---->Sub(B) and the adjunction localizes on C.

how can i say this for fibrations, without using the direct images? well (now i write Arr(E) as E/E and B/P is the comma into P) E--P-->B is a fibration if and only if the induced functor E/E---->B/P is a reflection (the cartesian liftings induce a right adjoint right splitting). a subcategory C of E is a definable subfibration of P if and only E/E---->B/P restricts to C/E---->Sub/P. i think.

apologies that i am thinking so much in public, but there is no shortage of private thinking and there is a shortage of public thinking and we should all think together how to bring lawvere and benabou together :)

-- dusko

On Mon, Jan 22, 2024 at 3:05 PM Dusko Pavlovic <duskgoo@gmail.com> wrote:
as we are talking about lawvere's and benabou's nachlasse, it occurred to me to ask what would benabou's definability be in lawvere's terms. maybe they both knew this and maybe other people do, but i hope it doesn't hurt to spell it out.

let B be a category with pullbacks so we have the fibrations
Arr(B)--Cod-->B and
Sub(B)--Cod-->B,
where Arr(B) is the category of arrows and Sub(B) is the category of subobjects. the cartesian functors B>--Ids-->Sub(B) and B>--Ids-->Arr(B) are the right adjoints.

Prop. B>--Ids-->Sub(B) is the classifier of definable subfibrations. more precisely, for any fibration E--P-->B and a subfibration C>---->E here is a unique cartesian functor E--c-->Sub(B) such that the fibration C---->B is the pullback of c along B>--Ids-->Sub(B).

i did check this, but i didn't check it twice, so i may still be missing something.

-- dusko

On Mon, Jan 22, 2024 at 10:00 AM Francis Borceux <francis.borceux@uclouvain.be> wrote:

Sorry, and thanks to Jon for noticing the slip of terminology in my mail.

Indeed, Bénabou was insisting on the importance of his notion of definability.

Francis

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