From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.science.mathematics.categories/3516 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Gabor Lukacs Newsgroups: gmane.science.mathematics.categories Subject: RE: Response to "Elsevier and weapons trade" Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 11:29:46 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1241019354 9091 80.91.229.2 (29 Apr 2009 15:35:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:35:54 +0000 (UTC) To: categories@mta.ca Original-X-From: rrosebru@mta.ca Tue Dec 12 08:06:57 2006 -0400 Return-path: Envelope-to: categories-list@mta.ca Delivery-date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 08:06:57 -0400 Original-Received: from Majordom by mailserv.mta.ca with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1Gu6H5-0006oh-Qd for categories-list@mta.ca; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:58:19 -0400 Original-Sender: cat-dist@mta.ca Precedence: bulk X-Keywords: X-UID: 17 Original-Lines: 65 Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.science.mathematics.categories:3516 Archived-At: Dear Marta, Let me start from the end of your message, where you mentioned the resignation of the entire editorial board of Topology. I find their action quite reasonable and appropriate, because it is primarily an academic issue. Furthermore, preventing access to knowledge serves the perpetuation of poverty and the current division of power/property in the world. Thus, the pressure excerted on the publisher this way has the potential of being helpful. Now to the original question. I do not question, even for a single moment, the subjective good intent of those who protest and raise their voice. Nevertheless, objectively, I do find it hypocritical to protest against the arms trade, and not against the those who *use* or *buy* the arms. I find it a cheap lip service to complain about prostitutes and remain silent about the clients. What makes the arms trade profitable are precisely those countries (among them our beloved Land of Freedom, the US) who buy the weapons. I do not think it is sensible to make reproaches to these companies. Capitalism is about maximazing profit, not about the people's welfare. (Even if many measures are sold to the public as such!) Thus, the existence of the arms industry is just a consequence, not a cause. Trying to make it vanish helps as much as curing the symptoms of the plague. This issue bothers me for the same reason that I am bothered by animal-rights activists (who feel sorry for the poor-poor dogs and cats, but often seem to be less sensitive to the problems of their fellow humans) -- it distracts the attention from the real problem, and creates artificial ones. There are many entities that could/should be boycotted. However, before someone would join a boycott of Elsevier, they should ask themselves: When did they visit the US last time...? > It seems to me that you assume too much about those who were brave > enough to let us all be aware of this issue, and to whom we should be > grateful. I think this is exactly the point -- I do not find it brave at all to boycott a publisher. In fact, it looks like a very cheap way of relieving oneself from the responsibility of taking a real action, and this is what I find hypocritical about it. If someone is brave, s/he should refuse to participate in conferences in the US, or even boycott US academics altogether (as you all know, a similar initiative is in place against Israel). Personally, I am not sure if this is the area where I would like show my courage, but I would certainly admire anyone who would organize such a boycott. Because THAT takes a lot of courage. > nevertheless it is the duty of any conscientious scientist to raise > his/her voice against any crimes against humanity, regardless of who > perpetrates them. I fully agree with you on this. However, in my opinion, the crime is not manufacturing a weapon, but *using* it. Let me repeat that I was not question at all the subjective good intent of the posting or anyone involved. With warmest regards, Gabor Lukacs