From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.science.mathematics.categories/4315 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Thomas Streicher Newsgroups: gmane.science.mathematics.categories Subject: internal versus external Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 17:31:54 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1241019867 12720 80.91.229.2 (29 Apr 2009 15:44:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:44:27 +0000 (UTC) To: categories@mta.ca Original-X-From: rrosebru@mta.ca Sat Mar 15 19:57:54 2008 -0300 Return-path: Envelope-to: categories-list@mta.ca Delivery-date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:57:54 -0300 Original-Received: from Majordom by mailserv.mta.ca with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1JafFD-0004ZL-UD for categories-list@mta.ca; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:52:52 -0300 Original-Sender: cat-dist@mta.ca Precedence: bulk X-Keywords: X-UID: 79 Original-Lines: 113 Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.science.mathematics.categories:4315 Archived-At: I try to untangle various threads in the recent discussion. (1) Yes, there is a difference between replacement as a schema and the stronger form of replacement as formulated in Groth. universes. (To my embarrasment I have blurred this distinction against better knowledge!) (2) One has to carefully distinguish between the following two questions (a) find as good as possible an axiomatization of "the" category of sets which was the aim of ETCS and Cole, Mitchell and Osius; in this situation it is natural to assume wellpointedness (b) to ask what are good notions of model for intuitionistic set theories where the assumption of wellpointedness is, of course, much too restrictive. (a) and (b) are so different questions that I wouldn't go for comparing them. Reading Mike Shulman's original mail I had the impression he was going for (b) when asking whether certain arguments involving transfinite recursion could be done categorically. There the answer is in general not. Alas, I can't say anything about the most interesting question about small objects argument. But I know the answer in case of the classical example where replacement is needed, namely Borel determinacy. Don Martin gave a proof of Borel determinacy iterating the powerset functor \omega_1 times and later H.Friedman showed that axiom of replacement is indispensible for proving Borel determinacy. One also knows that in the realizability model of IZF (Friedman, McCarty et.al) Borel determinacy fails although it validates replacement (which is part of the axioms of IZF). Now I am coming to the real issue which triggered me to take part in the discussion, namely an apparent confusion between internal and external families of objects. I thought that on pp.77-79 of my lecture notes on fibrations (www.mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de/~streicher/FIBR/FibLec.pdf.gz) I gave a summary of the "current view" on these questions. But in the light of the recent discussion I think a few more words seem to be in place. Suppose EE is a topos. The most immediate notion of external family of objects is a function I -> Ob(EE) where I is a set. An internal family in EE is simply a map A -> X in EE. Obviously, these gadgets are quite different because in general sets aren't objects of EE and objects of EE aren't sets. However, one can turn an internal family a : A -> X into an external family of objects in EE indexed by EE(1,X), namely by associating with x : 1 -> X the object x^*a, i.e. the (source of the) pullback of a along x. Now one may ask whether this is a 1-1-correspondence for general toposes EE. There is a simple example showing that going from internal to external one looses information: let GG be a (finite) nontrivial group and G the representable object of Psh(GG) then ALL morphisms to G (and there are plenty) represent the external empty family of objects of Psh(GG). This might lead one to think that internal families are just "intensional representations" of external families. But this view is mistaken since there are external families of objects of EE which don't arise by externalising internal families. This is obvious since if EE is a small topos (say the free topos with nno) then there are I-indexed families of EE where I exceeds the cardinality of any EE(1,X). But there is the much more refined example of Peter Johnstone (also described in my notes on the web) of a topos EE over Set and an NN-indexed family of objects (A_n) in EE which doesn't arise from an internal family in EE. The topos EE is the full subcat of actions of the group (ZZ,+) on those objects where there is a finite bound on the size of orbits and A_n is ZZ_n acted on by ZZ in the obvious way. The reason why this family cannot arise from an internal family a : A -> X in EE is that there is a finite bound on the size of all orbits in A and thus on all orbits in the A_x (x \in EE(1,X). But of course A_n has an orbit of length n and, accordingly, there is not a finite bound on the orbits of all the A_n. Of course, if EE is a wellpointed topos the situation is "better". If EE has also small sums then we clearly have a 1-1-correspondence between internal families indexed by X and and external families indexed by EE(1,X). But this isn'the case anymore if we drop the assumption of small sums. Let EE be the wellpointed small topos arising from a countable model of Z (Zermelo's set theory, i.e. ZF without replacement schema). Then for reasons of cardinality there are EE(1,N)-indexed external families which don't arise from an internal one. >>From some of the mails I got the impression that it is claimed that restriction to "syntactically definable" (s.d.) families allows one to identify internal and external. This is definitely wrong for the non-wellpointed case due to the many different representations of the empty family. It might be the case that any "syntactically definable" external family indexed by EE(1,X) arises from some internal family a : A -> X though I don't see how to prove it. (Does any of the advocates of external families have a proof for that?) Finally, I would like to point out that there are two different meanings of the phrase "syntactically definable" family. The one used by Colin in his Philosophia article means "syntactically definable in the language of ETCS" and the one used by set theorists is "definable in the language of set theory". The latter hasn't any meaning in a model for ETCS since such a model doesn't allow one to interpret a formula in the language of set theory. But, of course, one can interpret set theoretic formulas in the models of bZ constructed from a model of ETCS. The reason why I doubt that models of ETCS and bZ are equivalent is that when going from a model of ECTS to a model of bZ is that one has to restrict to the well-founded part. At least that's what I recollect from MacLane and Moerdijk's exposition in their book. But I am ready to believe that adding wellfoundedness axioms to ETCS can remedy this situation. Of course, I might be all wrong with what I have said above. But then I would like to know what is the appropriate notion of "(external) family of objects" that one should use in case of non-wellpointed toposes. Thomas PS For sake of completeness I can't refrain from mentioning the following considerations I was told by Jean B'enabou some years ago. Let EE be some topos (J.B. was of course considering more general situations). Then split fibrations over EE correspond to categories internal to Psh(EE) = Set^{EE^op} (where Set is chosen big enough for EE being small w.r.t. Set). Then one my consider the presheaf set(EE) where set(EE)(X) consists of representable presheaves over EE/X. It is natural to define an X-indexed family of objects of EE as a morphism y(X) -> set(EE) but by Yoneda this is an element of set(EE)(X) corresponding to a map to X in EE.